What was Jesus’ purpose if sins were forgiven before His Incarnation?

[Clare73]

So you dont believe that the Gospel preached to Abraham Gal 3:8

Is that what I said?

The gospel is many facts.
Only faith in and trust on the person and the atoning work (blood, Ro3:25) of Jesus Christ saves.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Had anything to do with Christ dying for their sins ?

Abraham was credited with righteousness (Gen 15:6) by believing in the Seed (Ge 15:5, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) not in the blessing of nations.

 

[Brightfame52]

Is that what I said?

The gospel is many facts.
Only faith in and trust on the person and the atoning work (blood, Ro3:25) of Jesus Christ saves.

Abraham was credited with righteousness (Gen 15:6) by believing in the Seed (Ge 15:5, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) not in the blessing of nations.

So you dont believe when God spoke the Gospel to Abraham in Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Which undoubtedly refers to Gen 12:3

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

You dont believe that was the Gospel of and about Christ ? Yes or No

 

[Gup20]

Nowhere does the NT present us as "adopted" sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:7 (NASB95) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

This just demonstrates you didn’t actually read what I wrote since I’ve written this exact verse 3 times in this thread.

Romans 4:11-17 (NASB95) 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

 

[Clare73]

Galatians 3:7 (NASB95) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

This just demonstrates you didn’t actually read what I wrote since I’ve written this exact verse 3 times in this thread.

That does not mean we are adopted, for the adopted are not "of" . . .we are (of/in) Christ, who is Abraham's actual "son," not adopted son, making us actual sons.
The NT never refers to those in Christ as adopted sons of Abraham.

 

[Gup20]

Fascinating thread. I'm not sure I understand it though having never heard all this before. Does the following fit in?

John 14
15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Yes. In fact, the "promise of the Spirit through faith" is a significant part of the Abrahamic covenant. Paul said:

Gal 3:14 NASB95 - 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

Then in Acts, on the day of Pentecost we read:

​

Act 2:33 NASB95 - 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.​

This is a direct reflection of the Abrahamic covenant. In fact, Ezekiel even noted this:

Eze 36:24-28 NASB95 - 24 "For I will take you from the nations (Gen 17:4), gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean (Gen 15:6); I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes (Deu 30:6), and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers (Gen 15:18); so you will be My people, and I will be your God .​

​

Deu 30:6 NASB95 - 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

Of course, circumcision was part of Abraham's covenant, so circumcision of the heart - the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - is part of the Abrahamic covenant.

 

[Gup20]

That does not mean we are adopted, for the adopted are not "of" . . .we are (of/in) Christ, who is Abraham's actual "son," not adopted son, making us actual sons.
The NT never refers to those in Christ as adopted sons of Abraham.

Gal 3:14, 18 NASB95 - 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

​

Rom 8:17 NASB95 - 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

​

Mat 28:10 NASB95 - 10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me."​

Jesus never called his followers "brethren" until after his resurrection. This was prophesied in Psalms 22 which is a messianic prophecy which starts with "my god, my god, why have you forsaken me" and it says "they divided my garments and cast lots for my clothes" ... so clearly, this is a Psalm about Jesus. It goes on to say:

​

Psa 22:22-23 NASB95 - 22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. 23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him; All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.​

Descendants of Jacob are the Jews, and descendants of Israel (Jacob's reborn name) are Christians.

Galatians 3 is ALL about being "descendants of Abraham" because of our faith. It culminates in the statement that those who are in Christ are "Abraham's descendants and heirs according to God's promise to Abraham."

Then the very next verses discuss in depth adoption.

Gal 3:29 NASB95 - 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

Gal 4:5 NASB95 - 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.​

Can I ask, Clare, what damage you think it does to believe what the Bible says about becoming not only sons of God, but descendants of Abraham as well? What is holding you back from accepting the plainly taught concept here?

 

[Clare73]

Gal 3:14, 18 NASB95 - 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

Rom 8:17 NASB95 - 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

Mat 28:10 NASB95 - 10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me."​

Jesus never called his followers "brethren" until after his resurrection. This was prophesied in Psalms 22 which is a messianic prophecy which starts with "my god, my god, why have you forsaken me" and it says "they divided my garments and cast lots for my clothes" ... so clearly, this is a Psalm about Jesus. It goes on to say:

Psa 22:22-23 NASB95 - 22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. 23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him; All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.​

​

Descendants of Jacob are the Jews, and descendants of Israel (Jacob's reborn name) are Christians.

And both are the one olive tree, the one people of God, the one church (ek-klesia, "called-out assembly," Ac 7:38) of both OT and NT saints
(Ro 11, Eph 2:15-16, Heb 11:40, Heb 12:22-24).

Galatians 3 is ALL about being "descendants of Abraham" because of our faith. It culminates in the statement that those who are in Christ are "Abraham's descendants and heirs according to God's promise to Abraham."

Then the very next verses discuss in depth adoption.

Gal 3:29 NASB95 - 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

Gal 4:5 NASB95 - 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.​

The (full rights of, Jn 1:12) "adoption as sons" always refers to those in Christ, the sons of God (Ro 8:14-16, 21, Jn 1:12, Eph 5:1, 1 Jn 3:1-2), not sons of Abraham.

Can I ask, Clare, what damage you think it does to believe what the Bible says about becoming not only sons of God, but descendants of Abraham as well?

False assumption. . .on two grounds.
The Bible does not say we are adopted sons of Abraham.
There is no damage in not believing what the Bible does not say; i.e., that we are sons of Abraham.

The damage is in believing what the NT does not teach, as in the extra-Biblical doctrine: we are adopted sons of Abraham.

What is holding you back from accepting the plainly taught concept here?

False assumption. . .on two grounds.
That is not the plainly taught concept here.
And nothing is holding me back from accepting, and defending, the plainly taught concept here. . .i.e., "in Christ" we are what Christ is, a "descendant" of Abraham just as Christ is, and Christ was not an "adopted" son of Abraham.

May I ask, though I already know the answer, "what" is causing your extra-Biblical doctrine which is holding you back from seeing the plain NT fact that "in Christ" we are descendants of Abraham (Gal 3:28-29), just as Christ was, and not adopted sons of Abraham, just as Christ was not, and which "adoption" is nowhere stated in the NT?

 

[Brightfame52]

gulp20

Jesus never called his followers "brethren" until after his resurrection

Really ? What about Matt 12:48-50

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

 

[ralliann]

​

The (full rights of, Jn 1:12)) "adoption as sons" always refers to those in Christ, the sons of God (Ro 8:14-16, 21, Jn 1:12, Eph 5:1, 1 Jn 3:1-2), not sons of Abraham.

False assumption. . .on two grounds.
The Bible does not say we are adopted sons of Abraham.
There is no damage in not believing that we are not sons of Abraham.

Well... I did not think like that. Thank you Clare for this.

 

[Gup20]

The (full rights of, Jn 1:12)) "adoption as sons" always refers to those in Christ, the sons of God (Ro 8:14-16, 21, Jn 1:12, Eph 5:1, 1 Jn 3:1-2), not sons of Abraham.

All who are adopted as sons of God are also qualified as descendants of Abraham. There is no distinction where some are sons of God but not descendants of Abraham. The promise of the Spirit through faith was a promise God made to Abraham and his descendants.

There is no damage in not believing that we are not sons of Abraham.

The damage is in believing what the NT does not teach, as in the extra-Biblical doctrine: we are adopted sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:7 (NASB95) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Luke 19:9 (NASB95)
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

There is damage in believing we are not sons of Abraham because 1) the Bible says we are and 2) only Abraham’s descendants inherit the righteousness which comes by faith & the promise of the Spirit by faith.

May I ask, though I already know the answer, "what" is causing your extra-Biblical doctrine which is holding you back from seeing the plain NT fact that "in Christ" we are descendants of Abraham (Gal 3:28-29), just as Christ was, and not adopted sons of Abraham, just as Christ was not, and which is nowhere stated in the NT?

Galatians 3:16 (NASB95) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

The promise of righteousness by faith was a promise made to Christ. He is the seed to whom the promise was made.

Acts 2:33 (NASB95) “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Jesus is a “co-heir” not the father from whom we inherit. He has also inherited through Abraham’s faith covenant… for He gave up His righteousness to become a curse for us. God promised Him He would inherit it back through Abraham’s covenant. He was the seed to whom righteousness & the Spririt were promised. If Christ took our sin, He could claim back His righteousness, but then Abraham (and his descendants) would get back their sin. Jesus allowed His righteousness to be given away to Abraham so it could be multiplied to the many (including Himself) through inheritance.

Galatians 3:13 (NASB95) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”--

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB95) He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Galatians 3:21-22 (NASB95) 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

The promise in Gal 3:22 was the promise given to Abraham. Life is imparted to all the descendants through that promise.

Romans 4:11-12 (NASB95) 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

Romans 4:16-17 (NASB95) 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

 

[Clare73]

All who are adopted as sons of God are also qualified as descendants of Abraham. There is no distinction where some are sons of God but not descendants of Abraham. The promise of the Spirit through faith was a promise God made to Abraham and his descendants.

Irrelevant to the issue of being adopted sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:7 (NASB95) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Luke 19:9 (NASB95)
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

There is damage in believing we are not sons of Abraham because 1) the Bible says we are and 2) only Abraham’s descendants inherit the righteousness which comes by faith & the promise of the Spirit by faith.


Galatians 3:16 (NASB95) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

The promise of righteousness by faith was a promise made to Christ. He is the seed to whom the promise was made.

Acts 2:33 (NASB95) “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Jesus is a “co-heir” not the father from whom we inherit. He has also inherited through Abraham’s faith covenant… for He gave up His righteousness to become a curse for us. God promised Him He would inherit it back through Abraham’s covenant. He was the seed to whom righteousness & the Spririt were promised. If Christ took our sin, He could claim back His righteousness, but then Abraham (and his descendants) would get back their sin. Jesus allowed His righteousness to be given away to Abraham so it could be multiplied to the many (including Himself) through inheritance.

Galatians 3:13 (NASB95) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”--

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB95) He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Galatians 3:21-22 (NASB95) 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

The promise in Gal 3:22 was the promise given to Abraham. Life is imparted to all the descendants through that promise.

Romans 4:11-12 (NASB95) 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

Romans 4:16-17 (NASB95) 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

Irrelevant to adoption by Abraham.

We are in Christ, and Christ was not adopted by Abraham.

 

[Gup20]

Irrelevant to the issue of being adopted sons of Abraham.

Irrelevant to adoption by Abraham.

We are in Christ, and Christ was not adopted by Abraham.

Christ was qualified as a descendant. He took actions that demonstrated his trust in God practically daily. He trusted in God and God's purpose for Himself. He said "not my will but yours be done." This is the truest essence of "the gospel." He believed in God's purpose for Himself and was obedient even to death to fulfill it. "The gospel" is trusting in Christ and his purpose. Jesus was already a son of God and a son of Abraham... He didn't need to qualify as either because he was born as both. Someone who is not the son of God certainly needs to qualify as a son of God, and any gentile needs to be adopted as a son of Abraham - for one must have a heavenly witness and an earthly witness.

Deu 30:19 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

​

Rom 8:15-17 NASB95 - 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

The human choice God sets before us between life and death and commands us to choose is predicated on a synergistic heavenly witness and an earthly one. This is the condition for adoption. Through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ we become sons of God and of Abraham. Once we are qualified as sons of Abraham, we receive the righteousness of Christ as an inheritance because of God's promise to Abraham that he and his descendants would be credited with righteousness.

Adoption is how we become known by God.

Mat 7:23 NASB95 - 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'​

​

Gal 4:5-9 NASB95 - 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?​

We must be qualified as a descendant of Abraham for salvation because the promises were made to Abraham. To inherit through those promises we must be qualified as Abraham's descendant, and not only sons of God.

Luk 19:9 NASB95 - 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.​

​

Heb 2:16 NASB95 - 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.​

Furthermore, once we accept this Biblical truth we find many of the petty, lingering arguments within the body of Christ fall away like chaff in the wind. This resolves the Calvin vs Arminius debate, this resolves dispensationalism vs covenant theology, this resolves works vs faith, this resolves the enmity between Jew and Christian, this resolves Original Sin vs Original death, this resolves dual covenant theology and replacement theology, this even indirectly resolves ultimate reconciliation vs eternal damnation debates.

So seeing how much good it does, and that it is Biblically sound exegetical doctrine, I would ask you again what are you so afraid of in believing that those with faith in the gospel are qualified as Abraham's descendants and heirs according to the promises given to him? Do you have a sacred cow in this list of conflict resolutions?

 

[Gup20]

gulp20



Really ? What about Matt 12:48-50

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

I stand corrected! Jesus called his disciples his brothers at least once before his resurrection. However, he didn't call all the Jews his brothers... only those who believed in Him and were his disciples.

 

[Clare73]

Christ was qualified as a descendant. He took actions that demonstrated his trust in God practically daily. He trusted in God and God's purpose for Himself. He said "not my will but yours be done." This is the truest essence of "the gospel." He believed in God's purpose for Himself and was obedient even to death to fulfill it. "The gospel" is trusting in Christ and his purpose. Jesus was already a son of God and a son of Abraham... He didn't need to qualify as either because he was born as both. Someone who is not the son of God certainly needs to qualify as a son of God, and any gentile needs to be adopted as a son of Abraham - for one must have a heavenly witness and an earthly witness.

Deu 30:19 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

​

Rom 8:15-17 NASB95 - 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

The human choice God sets before us between life and death and commands us to choose is predicated on a synergistic heavenly witness and an earthly one. This is the condition for adoption. Through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ we become sons of God and of Abraham. Once we are qualified as sons of Abraham, we receive the righteousness of Christ as an inheritance because of God's promise to Abraham that he and his descendants would be credited with righteousness.

Adoption is how we become known by God.

Mat 7:23 NASB95 - 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'​

​

Gal 4:5-9 NASB95 - 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?​

We must be qualified as a descendant of Abraham for salvation because the promises were made to Abraham. To inherit through those promises we must be qualified as Abraham's descendant, and not only sons of God.

Luk 19:9 NASB95 - 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.​

​

Heb 2:16 NASB95 - 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.​

Furthermore, once we accept this Biblical truth we find many of the petty, lingering arguments within the body of Christ fall away like chaff in the wind. This resolves the Calvin vs Arminius debate, this resolves dispensationalism vs covenant theology, this resolves works vs faith, this resolves the enmity between Jew and Christian, this resolves Original Sin vs Original death, this resolves dual covenant theology and replacement theology, this even indirectly resolves ultimate reconciliation vs eternal damnation debates.

So seeing how much good it does, and that it is Biblically sound exegetical doctrine, I would ask you again what are you so afraid of in believing that those with faith in the gospel are qualified as Abraham's descendants and heirs according to the promises given to him? Do you have a sacred cow in this list of conflict resolutions?

Previously addressed. . .

 

[msortwell]

Heb 7:22 - By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

From Webster's 1828 Dictionary . . .

5. In law, one that is bound with and for another; one who enters into a bond or recognizance to answer for another's appearance in court, or for his payment of a debt or for the performance of some act, and who, in case of the principal debtor's failure, is compellable to pay the debt or damages; a bondsman; a bail.​

​

He that is surety for a stranger, shall smart for it. Proverbs 11:15.​

​

Thy servant became surety for the lad to my father. Genesis 44:32.​

​

6. In Scripture, Christ is called 'the surety of a better testament.' Hebrews 7:22. He undertook to make atonement for the sins of men, and thus prepare the way to deliver them from the punishment to which they had rendered themselves liable.​

With Jesus as surety for the total debt of the elect, it is not necessary for the debt to be paid by the surety (Jesus) before the debt is incurred. The debt owed was paid. It was declared to be sufficient by the Father raising the Son from the dead.

 

[Brightfame52]

msortwell

With Jesus as surety for the total debt of the elect, it is not necessary for the debt to be paid by the surety (Jesus) before the debt is incurred.

But the debt was sure to be incurred by the eternal purpose of God, so much so Jesus was in the Mind and Purpose of God slain [ as Surety] from the foundation Rev 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He was foreordained[for a redemptive purpose] before the world began with Adam 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

So when Adam was Created and Man in him, he must sin in accordance with Gods Purpose and Christs already ordained Suretyship !

The debt owed was paid.

It was already charged to the Surety to be paid, thats why Christ had to come in the fulness of time to pay the debt incurred by Adam and men in him, hence it behooved Him to be made like His Brethren to pay the debt Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The word behoved is the greek word opheilō:

1. to owe
   
   1. to owe money, be in debt for
      
      1. that which is due, the debt

Because He was Surety, He was in debt, He owed, it was the debt of the Justice due to the sins of Gods People who sinned in Adam,

So thats why He came in the first place, to settle the debt because of His suretyship Heb 7:22

When Adam was Created, he must sin because Christ must die as Surety as previously arranged before the world began !

 

[BBAS 64]

​

And both are the one olive tree, the one people of God, the one church (ek-klesia, "called-out assembly," Ac 7:38) of both OT and NT saints
(Ro 11, Eph 2:15-16, Heb 11:40, Heb 12:22-24).

The (full rights of, Jn 1:12)) "adoption as sons" always refers to those in Christ, the sons of God (Ro 8:14-16, 21, Jn 1:12, Eph 5:1, 1 Jn 3:1-2), not sons of Abraham.

False assumption. . .on two grounds.
The Bible does not say we are adopted sons of Abraham.
There is no damage in not believing that we are not sons of Abraham.

The damage is in believing what the NT does not teach, as in the extra-Biblical doctrine: we are adopted sons of Abraham.

False assumption. . .on two grounds.
That is not the plainly taught concept here.
Nothing is holding me back from accepting, and defending, the plainly taught concept here. . .i.e., "in Christ" we are what Christ is, a "descendant" of Abraham just as Christ is, and Christ was not an "adopted" son of Abraham.

May I ask, though I already know the answer, "what" is causing your extra-Biblical doctrine which is holding you back from seeing the plain NT fact that "in Christ" we are descendants of Abraham (Gal 3:28-29), just as Christ was, and not adopted sons of Abraham, just as Christ was not, and which is nowhere stated in the NT?

Good Day, Clare


It is awfully encouraging to a see a constant hermeneutic across all of Scripture..

I do not believe I have ever expressed the Blessing you are to me when I read you posts.

Thank you!

IN Him,

Bill

 

[Gup20]

Good Day, Clare


It is awfully encouraging to a see a constant hermeneutic across all of Scripture..

I do not believe I have ever expressed the Blessing you are to me when I read you posts.

Thank you!

IN Him,

Bill

You may agree with Clare, but her arguments are very weak - some were just pure nonsense. For example:

 

[Clare73]

You may agree with Clare, but her arguments are very weak - some were just pure nonsense. For example:

View attachment 330742

Darn!. . .one can't even buy a compliment these days!

Please present the text where we are adopted by Abraham, when the text of Gal 3:29 states that in Christ we are the seed (descendants) of Abraham. One's seed is not adopted.

 

[Gup20]

Darn!. . .one can't even buy a compliment these days!

Please present the text where we are adopted by Abraham, when the text of Gal 3:29 states that in Christ we are the seed (descendants) of Abraham. One's seed is not adopted.

Gal 3:6-9 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Are you physically descended from Abraham or counted as a descendant of Abraham by faith?

Gal 3:29 NASB95 - 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

4:1 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Gal 4:21-31 NASB95 - 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Gen 17:4-7 NASB95 - 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.

Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​