What Was God’s Intention For The Atonement?

[Serving Zion]

You gotta say what you think it means. Nobody is going to disagree with a bare Scripture reference.

There is a preferable option D: that the world through him might be saved.

world
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.
HELPS Word-studies
2889 kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

[The English term "cosmetic" is derived from 2889 /kósmos, i.e. the order ("ensemble") used of treating the face as a whole.]

The ignorant and unstable minds twist this passage to think it says "God so loved me that He gave up His only-begotten son".

Can’t God change our hearts and give us the desire to repent?

He can, but it requires sufficient exposure to His spirit that can rectify the corrupted thinking that the world has programmed into us (John 16:8, Luke 10:16).

Notice that Adam and Eve didn't have to hide from God, but they did. This is the same problem that we have when we have forgotten His true nature (Ephesians 2).

There is also the risk that the word will be snatched away by the devil as soon as they have gone out from our presence, as the birds came and gobbled up the seed before it grew.

He gave up His life a ransom for many: "go and make disciples of all people".

 

[dqhall]

When God purposed that Jesus would die on the cross, what was his intention?

Options in the poll:

1. To actually save all people - This is universalism. God intended for the cross of Christ to affect the salvation of all people, regardless of whether or not they repent in this life.
2. To make it possible for all people to be saved - Arminianism. God did not intend to actually save anyone. He merely intended to make it possible for anyone who believes in Jesus to be saved.
3. To actually save some people - At the cross God intended to actually save a group of people known as the elect. This is Calvinism.

Discuss.

You gave me three choices: universalism, Arminianism and Calvinism. I think God will save some people, not by Calvin, but by Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:16 (WEB) "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned."

John 3:18 (WEB) "He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God."

 

[bling]

When God purposed that Jesus would die on the cross, what was his intention?

Options in the poll:

1. To actually save all people - This is universalism. God intended for the cross of Christ to affect the salvation of all people, regardless of whether or not they repent in this life.
2. To make it possible for all people to be saved - Arminianism. God did not intend to actually save anyone. He merely intended to make it possible for anyone who believes in Jesus to be saved.
3. To actually save some people - At the cross God intended to actually save a group of people known as the elect. This is Calvinism.

Discuss.

None of those choices.

All mature who sinned could be saved without the atonement sacrifice (In Ro. 3:25 "in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished") Ro.3:25 is contrasting before and after the cross so before the cross God did forgive those who turned to God, repented and sought God's forgiveness for rebellious disobedient sins and thus were forgiven but not "punished" [better translated disciplined].

God forgave and forgives 100% of the time those who seek, repent and accept His forgiveness. Atonement has to do with discipline (translated punishment).
Forgiven people are saved people, yet a children not only need forgiveness, but Loving fair/just discipline (which atonement provides).

 

[Ken Rank]

If the father does this to people, tell me just one reason he won't do it for all.

You clipped a quote from me where I said the work was "once for all." I stated I am not a universalist to avoid getting into that discussion.

 

[jax5434]

It is clear that scripture teaches two great truths. That God is absolutely, completely and totally sovereign, and that man has a truly libertarian free will. I do not know how God reconciles this but I am confident that he can.
Calvinism, Arminianism and Universalism are mans attempts to explain what God chose to leave unexplained.

God Bless
Jax

 

[Colter]

When God purposed that Jesus would die on the cross, what was his intention?

Options in the poll:

1. To actually save all people - This is universalism. God intended for the cross of Christ to affect the salvation of all people, regardless of whether or not they repent in this life.
2. To make it possible for all people to be saved - Arminianism. God did not intend to actually save anyone. He merely intended to make it possible for anyone who believes in Jesus to be saved.
3. To actually save some people - At the cross God intended to actually save a group of people known as the elect. This is Calvinism.

Discuss.

None of the above, the cross was to share and experience what man passes through.

In the original gospel that Jesus tried to induce the Jews to accept, salvation was by faith.

 

[Ken Rank]

Pls I just would love to learn. How did you strike a compromise between the doctrine of free will and predestination?

First, allow me to share a couple of verses to make sure we understand that both do exist within Scripture.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live

Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

There are really two ways of looking at this and perhaps both are correct? The first one is my general answer, the second something I have just begun to see of recent.

1. Whose eyes are we looking through? We have been created in such a way that we do not know what tomorrow holds. Therefore, because we don't know (beyond anything prophesied in Scripture but even then we don't know exact dates) we have to live making choices and God knows this. So, using my example from Deut. 30 above, God is saying that He has set before us blessing and cursing, life and death... and we (Israel at that time, but the premise of His statement applies to us now as well) have to choose between these things. The fact that we have a choice reveals free will. On the other hand, God is not bound by time. In fact, every marker used to tell time comes from a creation of God. In other words, a day is the time the Earth rotates one time. A month the time it takes the moon to orbit the Earth once. A year the time is takes the Earth to orbit the sun once, and so forth. God created those things, He was here before those things, and thus time does not effect Him as it does us. This is why He is called the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. He knew when He started creating that we would fall and YES I can prove that using Scripture. And if He knew we would fall... then everything He did after that was part of a plan to reconcile us back to Him. And, in the end, He knows who will be and won't be with Him. So from HIS STANDPOINT, or through His eyes, we are predestined... not that He made us to live or die.... rather, that He simply knows the answer now.

2. This is something I have just begun to think about so my point might not be as clear. Ephesians 11 above, and all other verses that use proorizō (G4309 – predestine) are speaking about prophecy being fulfilled. So I suspect one could make a good case that the predestination found in the NT is based on promises that were recorded in the OT. In other words, God said He would write His law in our minds and hearts (Jer. 31:31-34) and thus this WILL happen because God spoke it and therefore it simply HAS TO come to pass. Thus what was said can be called “predestined” (predetermined) because the event was spoken first by a God who exists outside of time and can't and won't be wrong.

 

[redleghunter]

Once God begins controlling and changing rather than drawing, encouraging, informing, then our wills are no longer free for all practical purposes. We may not be able to say "yes" without His help, but we can still always say "no" even then.

Who is the 'actor' in regeneration?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

For the righteousness of Christ to be applied to those who's intergrity allows them to be in right standing to God.

 

[Oldmantook]

When God purposed that Jesus would die on the cross, what was his intention?

Options in the poll:

1. To actually save all people - This is universalism. God intended for the cross of Christ to affect the salvation of all people, regardless of whether or not they repent in this life.
2. To make it possible for all people to be saved - Arminianism. God did not intend to actually save anyone. He merely intended to make it possible for anyone who believes in Jesus to be saved.
3. To actually save some people - At the cross God intended to actually save a group of people known as the elect. This is Calvinism.

Discuss.

Universalism = God desires to save all + God is able to save all = all are saved.
Arminianism = God desires to save all + God is not able to save all = all are not saved.
Calvinism = God does not desire to save all + God is able to save all = all are not saved.

 

[fhansen]

Who is the 'actor' in regeneration?

God is the one who regenerates us, and yet it's a mistake to think that complete regeneration and justification must take place before we're able to say "yes" to God, or that we can never say "no"afterwards. Because an aspect of the justice that He recognizes in us is our very willingness-that's the wildcard; that what Adam refused to supply even though he was presumably in at least as just a state of being to begin with as God makes us to be here on earth. That willingness is what God seeks to elicit from us. So the RCC teaches thusly:

"1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42"

IOW, man cannot say "yes" without God's help, and yet he can still always say "no", and at any step along the way he can still do so (he can turn back away from God, that is). So Augustine could say this:

"But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.”

 

[Oldmantook]

God intended to save all of humanity, therefore Christ "tasted death for every man" (Heb 2:9).

At the same time, God has stipulated TWO CONDITIONS which are applicable to all sinners: (1) repentance toward God and (2) faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

Therefore the Gospel must be preached in all the world and to every creature, so that all will obey the Gospel, And only those who obey the Gospel are saved. This rules out Universalism.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16).

There are several variations of universalism so one must be specific. Christian universalism a.k.a. apocatastasis/apokatastasis posits that God works his will through the ages so that eventually all will repent and be saved - even those who end up in the lake of fire so that all will be one day reconciled to God "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil 2:10-11).

 

[Micah888]

even those who end up in the lake of fire so that all will be one day reconciled to God

Obviously this is not true. According to Scripture, the Lake of Fire is the eternal destiny of all who are placed there under God's righteous judgment.

They may still bow the knee to Christ in Hell, but it will be too late for them to be redeemed. This would be similar to a murderer in a monarchy, who is given a life sentence in prison, but acknowledges that the king of his country is indeed the king. That does not release him from prison.

 

[redleghunter]

Where in Scripture is this understanding of free will taught?

As is popular on these types of threads, we hear certain theological terms are not 'in the Bible.' Thought I would return to the favor to those claims by doing a key search for "free will" in the NASB.

As you can see, nothing which describes 'free will' came up.

Now we should know that the apostle Paul did indeed speak of the will of man, but not in the manner in which we see here being argued. In fact, our 'will' is either in bondage to sin and death or we are slaves to Christ's righteousness:

Romans 6: NKJV
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[redleghunter]

Calvin's teaching majors on the fact if you believe in Christ and live as the scripture is expected and eventually got saved when Christ comes, it means you've been chosen to it before you even believed at all.

Not very clear to me, but perhaps Ephesians 1 can shed some light on the conversation regarding 'elect' or 'chosen.'

Ephesians 1: NKJV
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

 

[fhansen]

As is popular on these types of threads, we hear certain theological terms are not 'in the Bible.' Thought I would return to the favor to those claims by doing a key search for "free will" in the NASB.

As you can see, nothing which describes 'free will' came up.

Look up "Trinity" now. The concept of free will is all over the bible, from beginning to end.

 

[Micah888]

But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered

Christians should not take this Scripture beyond what is being said. The natural, unregenerate man is by nature a sinner, without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit to overcome temptation and refuse to sin. Thus a "slave" to sin, not a "slave " to righteousness.

This should be counter-balanced with what Paul says in Romans 2:14,15: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...

So even though the unsaved are "slaves of sin" it does not means that they are always and continuously sinful and evil. God has given every person a conscience, and when the unregenerate "do by nature the things contained in the Law" (meaning righteous thoughts and deeds), then they are showing that the Law is indeed written in their hearts (they know difference between good and evil).

The proper conclusion is that unregenerate human beings do have a free will, and can also do right when following their conscience. The gospel according to Calvinism does not properly present Gospel truth.

 

[redleghunter]

God is the one who regenerates us

Thank you for clarifying.

and yet it's a mistake to think that complete regeneration and justification must take place before we're able to say "yes" to God, or that we can never say "no"afterwards. Because an aspect of the justice that He recognizes in us is our very willingness-that's the wildcard; that what Adam refused to supply even though he was presumably in at least as just a state of being to begin with as God makes us to be here on earth. That willingness is what God seeks to elicit from us. So the RCC teaches thusly:

"1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42"

IOW, man cannot say "yes" without God's help, and yet he can still always say "no", and at any step along the way he can still do so (he can turn back away from God, that is). So Augustine could say this:

Hypotheticals or 'what if's' are not good reasons to establish theologies around them. What did the apostles say?

Ephesians 2: NKJV

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Ephesians 1: NKJV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Peter 1: NKJV
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

"But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.”

Please link me to the sermon that I may see the quote in context.

 

[redleghunter]

The proper conclusion is that unregenerate human beings do have a free will, and can also do right when following their conscience. The gospel according to Calvinism does not properly present Gospel truth.

I'm not speaking of the human knowledge version of 'free will' where I say "I can either go to the supermarket and get milk, or pay an extra few dollars and get it at the convenience store." No one doubts everything we do, we have choices. The point from Paul in Romans 6 is what are our choices in bondage to? What do we offer our "members" to? It is either sin and death or the righteousness of God.

Don't know what Calvin has to do with this.

Can atheists or non-believers 'do good things?' Of course they can, however, this is what Paul says in the very reference I provided:

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. (Romans 6:20-22)

 

[redleghunter]

Pls I just would love to learn. How did you strike a compromise between the doctrine of free will and predestination?

Perhaps brother @Ken Rank was hitting upon something Charles H. Spurgeon opined on in the 19th century:

"That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring." (New Park Street Pulpit, 4:337)​

"Men who are morbidly anxious to possess a self-consistent creed, a creed which will put together and form a square like a Chinese puzzle, are very apt to narrow their souls. Those who will only believe what they can reconcile will necessarily disbelieve much of divine revelation. Those who receive by faith anything which they find in the Bible will receive two things, twenty things, ay, or twenty thousand things, though they cannot construct a theory which harmonizes them all." ("Faith," Sword and Trowel, 1872)​

Spurgeon was a Calvinist there is no doubt about it. In his later years, he squared off with what he saw as a hyper-Calvinist movement (quote #2) and in the first, although opposed to Wesleyan theology, was humbly acknowledging we don't know everything, but everything we need to know God has revealed.

If you read enough of Spurgeon's sermons they focus on the Glory of God and God's Sovereignty. To summarize his view, he thought it robbing God's Glory and Sovereignty to give any glory, credit or sovereignty to ones self and this includes salvation, justification and 'good works.' His point was one could not raise themselves from the dead (glorification) or even assist in doing so. Such is why salvation from calling to justification to sanctification and glorification is by God's Grace Alone. Praise be to God!