What "trigger warnings" mean to me.

[Gadarene]

False, besides, a "fantasy" is not necessarily something you want to happen in real life: Here's What Women Fantasize About The Most

Sorry, it’s ‘only’ 30% according to this one paper, my bad lol

"a lot"? Gravitas? I think VERY VERY few women/people do that.

Try challenging the party line on gender a bit more, for example. Look at the emotive language when women demand something to solve some women’s issue, or as a response to some bit of ‘misogynist’ language, then look at how they respond to men asking for the same sort of thing.

Again, I’ve no idea why you think the inclusion of a colloquial qualifier is an attempt to add gravitas.

You know that women used to behave that way too. And then people started to realize the scope of the problem and thought hey, maybe this doesn't work and maybe we need to change as a society.

Which way? It’s damseling. That isn’t new behaviour, that’s patriarchal behaviour. It’s the same old same old. ‘My Honour has been besmirched! Why aren’t you men helping me? You’re bad for not helping me!” Look at how even supposedly gender egalitarian women talk to men, in ways that they do not talk to other women. It’s the same problem being spun as a solution.

I'm not sure if it's you but in one thread, I hear people trotting out that men more often commit suicide than women. But here it seems that you are advocating that the way men cope with their problems is more adventageous?

I was referring there to minor issues, like mean tweets, or whatever is ‘problematic’ du jour. Obviously suicidal ideation is, or pertains to, something that’s actually serious.

Take the mean tweets issue. Notable (usually liberal) woman gets mean tweets, all hell breaks loose, The Internet Is A Hostile Place For Women, ban people for wrongthink, etc. Men - who are more likely than women to receive actual threats online, incidentally - they get crappy tweets and....nothing. No similar hand-wringing, no suggestion The Internet Is A Hostile Place For Men.

And this is good. A bit more resilience would do these women some good. Again, no-one has to go full male-stoic, that’s not healthy, but it does encourage me than men are not going around getting triggered over trivialities to the extent that it seems women are. But then people will hardly fail to notice that men are coping far better with a ‘problem’ than women are, and yet we’re being constantly told the genders are equal. I don’t get why men are expected to care about - say - mean tweets, when few care when it happens to us. Women on the whole certainly don’t.

So I would point out I was talking about myself and not generalizing for all men. I was speaking, for myself, more of the nature of the trauma causing event; not the response to trauma that a given gender may have.

Gosh, it’s almost as if which subset of a group affected by an issue we choose to use as our basis for setting out trigger warnings is completely arbitrary, as i’ve been saying all along.....

 

[MehGuy]

So there is some kind of broken aspect about women that means they ENJOY being "triggered".

Yes.

For some women at least. This includes men too, such as myself. Although for whatever reason I see men express this far less. The sadomasochistic forums/scenes I frequent do contain a lot of such males. Biologically it does seem to go against our gender roles. At least to take away the victim-hood monopoly from women.

Sadly I was engaging in a lot of SJW behavior myself before I ever heard of the term, only difference was I was a white male engaging in this. Lol. The behavior of modern feminist actually make much sense to me psychologically.

One avenue I do see emotionally masochistic men express themselves is in religions like Christianity. There is certainly a persecution/martyr complex crowd to be found there. Not surprising that a religion that often has a pathological focus on a brutal execution and glorifies martyrs would be a hotbed of such behavior. Lol.

Most of my emotional masochism was expressed in the light of Christianity. As a male that's a socially acceptable avenue for such expression.

Christianity and feminism/SJWism seem to both stress high empathy. Sadly this empathy is often used in a selfish way. In many outlets of Christianity, Christian suffering is sacred, while in feminism female suffering is sacred. Both seem to have a problem of pathological gratuitous obsession with victim-hood.

I wonder then if women also, secretly like being raped. And then maybe they also secretly like the PTSD that comes along with that kind of trauma.

From browsing emotional masochistic forums.. these people exist.

I'd say much less exist when they're actually being raped. Although it's hard to imagine why so many feminists get so offended when a man tries to speak about being a victim of whatever (sexual assault, domestic violence). How isn't this a movement that wants to have a monopoly on victim-hood? And why would they want it?

It is pretty acceptable knowledge that 15ish% of women (minimally) are victims of rape and almost 1/3 of some kind of sexual assault.
And then, when a portion of the population voices concerns for thing that would help them cope, suddently they are NOT dealing with these, they are making it up/exaggerating/getting off on their "trauma"

Certainly not all, although I'd think we'd be missing out on a discussion if we didn't include in the dialog those who might get off on it. Those who are most likely to take things like trigger warnings too far.

1) No they wouldn't.

Why wouldn't they? I can see feminist men choosing not too. Although not men who actually do go against traditional gender roles and seek sympathy and understanding for their problems. Even if it goes against popular feminist sentiments.

2) "Many" is meaningless. 3) I actually HAD an allegation put against me in my old job. As horrifying and soul crushing as that experience and the resulting investigation was, it was not "traumatic" in the same way that my traumatic experiences were.

I'm glad that it didn't effect you (how serious was this accusation?), sadly I've heard from other men where it did. Honestly it's pretty ridiculous to say that not wanting to see scenes of men being accused of sexual assault wouldn't be trigger warning worthy.

Honestly, your use of the word "many" throughout this post and topic in general is a baseless attempt to try to give your point more gravitas.

Maybe. Admittedly I don't have much research on my side (or maybe I'm not good at finding it.. lol), although I was just sharing my perspective and why the topic of trigger warnings bothers me.

Anyways this chat with you has reminded me why I have little sympathy for trigger warnings. Why don't you people actually show me that you'll apply compassion equally and maybe I and others won't feel that trigger warnings are just the decadent whining of Western women.

 

[Gadarene]

This is 100% speculation though. You know that right?

How does avoidance improve anything? It doesn’t. How can it? At best it’s a deferral on dealing with something, at worst it’s reinforcing that you actually have something to feel threatened by in a nonthreatening scenario. That’s what most of these pathologies *are*.

While I would argue that it CAN, a good therapist (which is something people should be seeking; what kind of support exists for people in the US though...) would point that out to someone and use motivational interviewing to judge where they are on their journey to change and perhaps put them in the right mindset to do it. To think someone would stay at the same level of trauma if they are/have been receiving support for it is a bit perposterous.

Therapy alone will not help, and one’s response in everyday situations may undermine it.

I have worked with PLENTY of people who CANNOT conquer their anxiety whatsoever. It's not that they don't want to; it's that they cannot.
You experience with GAD seems pretty...great. You have the capacity to overcome your thoughts. But you are assuming that the intrusiveness of your thoughts is at the same level as it is for everyone else. And I can concretely say that is not true.

It’s not been great, I’ve just worked hard and avoided the trigger-warning safe-space brigade. I know if I had fallen into that trap I wouldn’t be better. The best thing for me was active, regular challenge of negative thinking. My girlfriend never gave my negative thinking any time whatsoever and she simply called me out on it, every time. If she’d pulled the “oh well I’m sure you know best how to react” I’d still be a mess.

 

[MehGuy]

Sorry, it’s ‘only’ 30% according to this one paper, my bad lol

Seems like the paper was talking about sexual fantasies specifically. For the most part I don't think emotional masochism is often sexual in nature.

When I say that I think many feminists get off being perceived as hyper victims, I don't think many of them are getting a sexual thrill from it.

 

[rambot]

Sorry, it’s ‘only’ 30% according to this one paper, my bad lol

Relative to the list of other sexual fantasies, it's kinda low. You caught the bit in the article about "real life" though too right?

Try challenging the party line on gender a bit more, for example. Look at the emotive language when women demand something to solve some women’s issue, or as a response to some bit of ‘misogynist’ language, then look at how they respond to men asking for the same sort of thing

Again, I’ve no idea why you think the inclusion of a colloquial qualifier is an attempt to add gravitas

Perhaps its from my time in uni when I would get called out for using that idea without support. And for good reason. Without backing it up with a source, how can I know it is anything other than your own strongly held opinion.
I understand what you are saying here but I think it speak to a can o' worms I simply don't have the time energy or inclination to go down (having to do with the "patriarchy").

For the record, this thread was really only about trigger warnings as that is the only thing I have a strong enough opinion on to keep discussing.

Take the mean tweets issue. Notable (usually liberal) woman gets mean tweets, all hell breaks loose, The Internet Is A Hostile Place For Women, ban people for wrongthink, etc. Men - who are more likely than women to receive actual threats online, incidentally - they get crappy tweets and....nothing. No similar hand-wringing, no suggestion The Internet Is A Hostile Place For Men.

Honestly, my opinion on anything like this is complete and TOTAL ambivalence. It's like watching pigs slop about in the mud. I dislike people equating internet experiences with real life experiences and the outcomes as well (so yes...these....people....the charicature is female and is likely more common if I were to guess, who complain about PTSD from the internet, go no patience for that nonsense).

And this is good. A bit more resilience would do these women some good. Again, no-one has to go full male-stoic, that’s not healthy, but it does encourage me than men are not going around getting triggered over trivialities to the extent that it seems women are.

But your right back to downplaying the experiences of women when you don't know what those experiences are again.
'SOME women"
There are many (I dare say MOST women) who aren't triggered by that...maybe as much as 90% of the women I know. So that leaves about 10% of women....theoretically?

Gosh, it’s almost as if which subset of a group affected by an issue we choose to use as our basis for setting out trigger warnings is completely arbitrary, as i’ve been saying all along.....

It's not "arbitrary" it's how our brain responds to it and that isn't necessarily in anyone's control.
As I mentioned in a post a while ago, I managed to avoid PTSD when my coworker who experienced almost the exact same, will never return to work because of it. And before your lynchpin your argument; there were 2 OTHER females with me who also did not develop PTSD from that.

 

[MehGuy]

It’s not been great, I’ve just worked hard and avoided the trigger-warning safe-space brigade. I know if I had fallen into that trap I wouldn’t be better. The best thing for me was active, regular challenge of negative thinking. My girlfriend never gave my negative thinking any time whatsoever and she simply called me out on it, every time. If she’d pulled the “oh well I’m sure you know best how to react” I’d still be a mess.

Yeah, I'm a sufferer of anxiety myself. Most likely a combination of being highly empathetic. A few years ago it became so bad that I seriously considered killing myself. Part of what helped to crawl out of that hole was tackling the issue head on. Although honestly it was also so bad that my brain became really numb to anxiety and kind of "shut off".

On that note, can't say my horrible episodes really trigger me. They do leave me massively depressed though. I don't have the energy for triggering I guess.. lol.

While I'm not against the idea of triggering warnings, it can certainly easily be an unhelpful crutch. Doesn't help that our society is currently engulfed with masochistic characters who try to exploit every last drop of their victim-hood. Several years ago I had to confront that aspect of my psychology, ever since I've been able to at least keep my anxiety bearable. Masochism is kind of a sickness on it's own.

It really is a difficult issue. The things I'd stress is making sure men have a space to use their own trigger warnings. Keep things in prospective, and call out any glorifying of suffering you can.

 

[rambot]

How does avoidance improve anything? It doesn’t. How can it? At best it’s a deferral on dealing with something, at worst it’s reinforcing that you actually have something to feel threatened by in a nonthreatening scenario. That’s what most of these pathologies *are*.

I don't necessary disagree with anything you are saying here but it kinda missed my point from before: The the possibility of "avoidance" is something you are speculating about.

Therapy alone will not help, and one’s response in everyday situations may undermine it.

Obviously not at all. It depends on one's willingness and capacity to put into practice the skills being used (assuming this is DBT or CBT).

It’s not been great, I’ve just worked hard and avoided the trigger-warning safe-space brigade. I know if I had fallen into that trap I wouldn’t be better. The best thing for me was active, regular challenge of negative thinking. My girlfriend never gave my negative thinking any time whatsoever and she simply called me out on it, every time. If she’d pulled the “oh well I’m sure you know best how to react” I’d still be a mess.

So you have a good support in your life. Good for you.

Do you assume everyone has the same level of helpful support? Cause that is another huge assumption. You have a female who is attune enough with what you need that they can support you with that.

That's pretty lucky.

 

[MehGuy]

Wonder who would have more energy to engage and obsess over their "problems". The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] who gets a sense of a positive feedback, or the non-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] who doesn't?

Whenever you deal with a group of people who are high on empathy, you're always going to have to worry about the empathetic masochists skewing things up.

Does your common trigger warning feminist really need trigger warnings? She's most likely obsessing over the triggering topics regardless, lol. Why should one not percieve this as another example of victim-hood showboating?

 

[Gadarene]

I don't necessary disagree with anything you are saying here but it kinda missed my point from before: The the possibility of "avoidance" is something you are speculating about.

Not really, it can hardly be classed as anything else.

Obviously not at all. It depends on one's willingness and capacity to put into practice the skills being used (assuming this is DBT or CBT).

So again, why not challenge instead of enable people’s avoidance?

So you have a good support in your life. Good for you.

Do you assume everyone has the same level of helpful support? Cause that is another huge assumption. You have a female who is attune enough with what you need that they can support you with that.

That's pretty lucky.

The point is that sort of challenge can be provided instead of issuing trigger warnings, it is something that others can encourage one to do. Given that, issuing trigger warnings feels like an abdication of responsibility.

 

[tansy]

The problem with "trigger warnings" is that nobody knows what everyone else's specific "triggers" are.

I knew someone who was "triggered" into a severe anxiety attack merely at hearing the word "rollercoaster". It is impossible to predict everyone's triggers.

The best we can do is to encourage those who are triggered to grow stronger.

Yes, I think this can be a problem. Two or three years ago I made what I thought was an inoffensive joke to one of my inlaws. It was (to me) light humour. However, unfortunately she was really, really upset about it, as unbeknownst to me, the particular word (and the context I used it in, partially) took her back to a lot of nasty bullying at school. Had I known about this, I would never have said that jokey thing. I do try not to offend, insult or upset anyone...but it can be so easy to do so quite innocently. In itself, what I said was not offensive and wouldn't normally have been to anyone else, unless they were ultra-sensitive for whatever reason.

 

[Motherofkittens]

There is much a big fuss made of trigger warnings. Generally, it sounds as though they are dismissable, worthless notes meant to coddle and comfort a weaker CLASS of people (usually/presumably these are minorities and/or femininsts and/or women).

There are now times where I appreciate "trigger warnings". I had been working in a treatment centre for youth and we had a self harmer with borderline personality disorder. She ended up targetting me with her mind games (so....things like setting up violent rape scenes in parks, self harming extensively (100s of cuts in a session) and coming out of the her room; cutting the undersides of her tongue and trying to flick blood at me and come at me all bloodied; plus numerous others). She lived at our facility for 8 months; of our staff of 12, 7 of us were put on stress leave because of what she exposed us to). It was a terrible time. These are experiences that people in the REAL WORLD have. Incidents of trauma that affect our/their mental health. These are REAL events. Sometimes it happens due to straight up hatred; some times, it's madness.

I've seen and dealt with a lot of terrible things at my work but this was, kind of, beyond the pale. We were told, in no uncertain words that are ONLY job was to "keep her alive". It was desperation level 500.

Since she left, I have had to walk out of 2 movies and a play; albeit temporarily, just so I can compose myself again as I get quite bit of flashbacks and anxiety when I see it (as well as when I have discussions about her or self harm generally). I went back in to the movies and the play (though in the play, the topic kinda hung around ot the end...so I didn't enjoy it as much).

The common argument against these groups is in regards to the idea that people don't "need coddling". We don't take children from abusive homes and argue they don't "need coddling"; we don't welcome soldiers home who have seen combat and suggest to them that they need to buck up. Society has come FAR enough along to recognize that, post trauma, a little TLC is necessary for care and healing of others. And yet if the "average person" suffers from trauma, there is a skepticism rooted around that.

And so I would start addressing that by taking a step back and considering why these people feel they need a "safe space" at all (ie...not whether they SHOULD HAVE access to one, but just that they think they NEED one). In the same way we need to remember that Hitler was not a monster but was just a human, we need to remember that victims of trauma are regular humans. And chances are that they also have been victim to some kind of trauma or significant injustice (does the latter require a safe space? Or a trigger warning, that's another discussion).

I don't feel I need to be "coddled" per se. But at the same time, I have seen things that you have NOT seen. Nor things I would want you to see. I have felt helpless feelings that you have not felt in those moments. For me, a trigger warning gives me a chance to reflect and think about whether this play/song/activity/art whatever is something I am ready and able to consume or participate in right at this time. Am I going to have to suffer through my memories of this bloody faced girl clawing at me while two characters in a play compare self harm scars? Is that gonna bother me all night? With a PTSD sufferer, is that kinda thing then, going to affect me for several days after?

Trigger warnings allow "compromised people" the opportunity to make more informed decisions around their capacity to see things that may be upsetting for them. I fail to see why that is a bad thing.

On news and radio broadcasts we have anchors saying "And a warning, some details may be offensive...". So they give trigger warnings to the whole population with the news: There is a reason for that. Probably because the world is full of @#%@#$$ up @@#%@#% and people aren't used to seeing all that stuff.
And when people see that stuff, they are affected by it.

Thank you for writing that. Of course I didn't demean others for wanting trigger warnings, if it is to prepare for it or to avoid it, whatever the reason. But I thought I didn't need them. Then about a few weeks ago something triggered me. I had not felt that bad in years and since those terrible things happened to me. It severely negatively affected me. I'm still not over it. I regressed in my mental wellbeing, it was horrible. I so, so, so, wish I could go back in time and for someone to have had put a trigger warning about it.

I can't believe these people who purposely say they REFUSE to put trigger warnings up, no matter how much anyone begs them to. It is so easy and it will save people a lot of grief and more triggering of trauma . PTSD is a real thing. I wonder if they will purposely make loud nosies, like screaming and fire crackers, etc., to a veteran who has come back with PTSD and told them about it. I wonder if they will also tell them to "suck it up snowflake". I suppose because it doesn't (thankfully) negatively affect them than it shouldn't negatively affect anyone. And if it does maybe they think they are also "whiny weak crybabies..."

Please everyone, if you remember (I forget sometimes too. And I admit I dread a lot of hate coming from people who are upset about me using them) use them. This is not about curbing free speech, it is a saver of pain, anxiety, insomnia, trauma, etc., and even sometimes a literal life saver.

 

[rambot]

Not really, it can hardly be classed as anything else.



So again, why not challenge instead of enable people’s avoidance?

id already explained that some days challenges can lead to huge regresssions that are ultimately far more detrimental that letting someone stat in cause mode for a session or a few.

The point is that sort of challenge can be provided instead of issuing trigger warnings, it is something that others can encourage one to do. Given that, issuing trigger warnings feels like an abdication of responsibility.

i guess it comes down to how we feel persons with trauma should be treated in an effort to get them through trauma and its effects. My opinion arose through my 1000s of conversations with experts as i worked in a treatment centre for traumatized youth.
It seems, and correct me if im wrong, you are conflating your experience of dealing with GAD with how traumatized individuals need to be treated. Is that fair?

 

[Gadarene]

It seems, and correct me if im wrong, you are conflating your experience of dealing with GAD with how traumatized individuals need to be treated. Is that fair?

You may make that argument if you please, I am saying they are comparable because TW advocates seem to think anxiety sufferers need them too. I am going by what they say, I am not the one who needs them or who lumped all these conditions together in the first place.

 

[rambot]

TW advocates? I'm not sure who those are: Trauma worker advocates?

Well, I would point out that anxiety sufferers tend to have a LOT of comordity going on and often have trauma in their past (though from my reading, anxiety does not necessarily results from "trauma". Personally, and I mean no disrepect (though I think we agree anyways), I'm not really sure that trigger warnings for nontrauma anxiety sufferers don't make sense to me.

As one last point, I would just refrain this whole discussion: It's not that trigger warnings are NEEDED. It's that they are wanted. Trauma sufferers will not DIE if they don't get a trigger warning. But as a recent poster pointed out, they may not want to go into a stretch of flashbacks that can affect them for days after. Maybe they just WANT them. And in all honesty, I still can't understand why other people are so offended by their presence.

If a news report says "some of the images you see, may be disturbing", I have never met a person who then says "Enough with the warnings! Who cares if they are disturbing. At worse, they grunt and ignore it. At best they think "Oh, well if the kids come in, I got the remote...".