What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

chevyontheriver

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Martin Luther absolutely had a higher Mariology than anyone here outside of Catholicism & Orthodoxy but the Immaculate Conception didn't become official doctrine of the RC until 1854 well after Luther's death. Do you have any sources of Luther holding to the sinlessness of Mary other than him having a high Mariology?
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.

Martin Luther
(Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527)

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.
(Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522)

Luther also believed Mary should be honored, that Mary is the spiritual mother of Christians, that she was a perpetual virgin. On the last point so did Calvin and Bullinger and Zwingli and Wesley. Here is where those living now who object to it all say it doesn't matter what those old folks believed because we are in the here and now.

The teaching of Mary being sinless is in no way new. It just took a long time for the teaching to be formally accepted in 1854. We're just not in a rush about it. There was a controversy about it where the two sides were 1.) Mary blessed from the moment of conception and thus never having been exposed to original sin at all, or 2.) Mary blessed immediately after conception and thus redeemed from original sin even before birth. Such was the controversy. In this Duns Scotus' view prevailed over that of Thomas Aquinas.
 
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concretecamper

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so what practical difference does it make to anyone's faith whether they believe it or not?
to reject a truth revealed by Christ through his Church is serious. Which is why
Good question, particularly because the Catholic Church made it an official dogma in 1854, considers it to be infallible, and holds that members must accept and believe it under pain of mortal sin.
is correct( yes, I'm not kidding. Even though the truth is meant to criticize, it is still true).

You reject Christ, things ain't gonna end up to well for you.
 
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concretecamper

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Martin Luther absolutely had a higher Mariology than anyone here outside of Catholicism & Orthodoxy but the Immaculate Conception didn't become official doctrine of the RC until 1854 well after Luther's death. Do you have any sources of Luther holding to the sinlessness of Mary other than him having a high Mariology?
Martin Luther on the Immaculate Conception ::
 
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Hmm

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to reject a truth revealed by Christ through his Church is serious. Which is why
....
You reject Christ, things ain't gonna end up to well for you.

But that's not a valid reason to me because I don't necessarily equate what Christ says with what a church says. Faith is not blind and we are expected to be able to give an account of our faith in order to help non-believers.
 
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Hmm

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there that word is again...ME. Everything ain't about ME

ME is important though. God intentionally created ME in His image and loves ME, more than He loves dogma. He even loves the humble and uncapitalised "me" :) The second commandment was to love others as I love ME.
 
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concretecamper

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ME is important though
as His creation, yes.
. God intentionally created ME in His image and loves ME, more than He loves dogma. He even loves the humble and uncapitalised "me" :) The second commandment was to love others as I love ME
correct, but this wasnt what you were talking about when I commented.
 
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Fidelibus

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Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

This includes every single human ever born since Cain and includes Mary. if she didn't sin then you are claiming that she wasn't of human decent and wasn't human.


Can't help but notice in your posting of this Scripture passage you bolded and underlined "all."
I take that as you meaning that when it reads 'all'..... that it is an absolute, correct? If so, I have a question for you. My question is... Are you seeking God? The reason I ask is because in Rom.3:11 it says, "No one seeks for God." So by your reasoning that if "all" in verse 23 is an absolute, then "no one" in verse 11 has to also be an absolute as well. Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day
 
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coffee4u

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Can't help but notice in your posting of this Scripture passage you bolded and underlined "all."
I take that as you meaning that when it reads 'all'..... that it is an absolute, correct?

Yes. All, meaning all humans ever born on the earth. The same way as Genesis 7 means all humans. Not all in one area, or all of one race but ALL.
21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.

If so, I have a question for you. My question is... Are you seeking God? The reason I ask is because in Rom.3:11 it says, "No one seeks for God." So by your reasoning that if "all" in verse 23 is an absolute, then "no one" in verse 11 has to also be an absolute as well. Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day

Yes I believe that as written too. No one seeks God unless God calls them.
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Have a blessed day too. :)
 
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Fidelibus

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Yes. All, meaning all humans ever born on the earth. The same way as Genesis 7 means all humans. Not all in one area, or all of one race but ALL.

Okay, so we can be clear, it is your belief that when Scripture says "all" that 'all' is meant as an absolute, correct? If this is your belief, lets take a look see at Rom. 5:12; "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned." As we can see in this passage, Paul is making the connection between death and sin. He says "death spread to all men because all men sinned." That "because" is very important. So, if absolutely "ALL" men have sinned, as you claim, then we should see from the Word of God that absolutely "ALL" men have died, right? Well, seems like a bit of a problem here coffee4u. Did "ALL" men die? No. The Bible tells us Enoch never died - Hebrews 11:5; Genesis 5:24. So, "all" is not an absolute, would you not agree? Furthermore, since sin leads to death, and Enoch did not die, he must not have sinned, right?

Not only that, the Bible also tells us that Elijah never died - he was taken up to Heaven in a fiery chariot - 2 Kings 2:10-12. So, again, "ALL" doesn't mean absolutely "ALL," does it? Furthermore, since sin leads to death, and Elijah did not die, he must not have sinned, right? Also, we know that Jesus died. So, if death is because of sin, and Jesus died, then Jesus must have sinned, right? After all, it says "all" and "all" means absolutely "all", doesn't it? Then did Jesus sin? Of course not!
Also In the Protestant King James Version, Romans 5:18 says, "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life."

So coffee4u, do you believe ALL men are saved? After all, Paul does say "ALL" men are acquitted and receive life because of Jesus. Do you believe in universal salvation? I doubt it.
Here are some words from Catholic apologist John Martignoni who's web site I often refer too that may be of interest:

"The Bible also says, in Romans chapter 3, that “None is righteous, no not one,” (Rom 3:10). Yet, the Bible is filled with people who are called “righteous” - Gen 6:9 (Noah), Psalms 14:5 (a whole generation of righteous folks), Luke 1:6 (Zechariah and Elizabeth), James 5:16 (the prayer of a righteous man), and many more places throughout the Old and New Testaments where the righteous are spoken of. So, either the Bible contradicts itself, or Romans 3:10 is not an absolute.
Also, in Romans 3, it says “No one does good, not even one,” (Rom 3:12). Yet, in many places throughout the Bible people’s good works and good deeds are spoken of. Again, is this a contradiction in God’s Word, or when Scripture says “no one...not even one,” it is not speaking in absolute terms?
One more example, from this same passage in Romans 3 that tells us “all have sinned.” Rom 3:11, “...no one seeks for God.” Are you seeking for God? I am. I know a lot of other people who are, as well. I’ll bet you are, too. But the Bible tells us “no one” is seeking God. So what’s going on here?
What’s going on is that Paul is not talking in absolute terms about all individuals who have walked the earth. He is talking about two groups of people - Jews and Greeks. And he is telling the Jews that they, like the Greeks (or the Gentiles), are also sinners. We see this in verse 9 of Romans 3. So, when Paul says that “all” have sinned, he means members of both groups, not necessarily absolutely all people who have ever lived. If he was speaking in absolutes, then what about Jesus? Did He sin? Of course not! So, there is at least one exception to “all have sinned,” which means it is not an absolute. And, if there is one exception, that allows for the possibility of another."

Yes I believe that as written too. No one seeks God unless God calls them.

I'm sorry coffee4u, but there is a bit of a problem here. Problem being, Firstly, Romans 3:11 does not say, "No one seeks God unless God calls them." It seems to me you are adding words to this passage. Again, what it actually say's is,,,, "No one seeks God" Not "No one seeks God unless God calls them." With that being said, it sounds as if you are telling me that "no one" does not actually mean no one? That "no one" is not an absolute? Is that what you are saying?
So, as you can see as I pointed out, what you state as fact in Rom.3:11, are words that I do not find in the Bible. ("unless God calls them") It is, for the most part, coffee4u words that you gave me,.... i.e. your personal interpretation of God's Word. So....coffee4u, should I believe your fallible personal interpretation/opinion of Scripture you gave me, or the actual Word of God? And that is my general issue with your answer. So much of what you state as fact, are words that I do not find in the Bible. It is, for the most part, coffee4u words that you gave me........ your non-authoritative, fallible, and personal interpretation of God's Word.

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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coffee4u

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Okay, so we can be clear, it is your belief that when Scripture says "all" that 'all' is meant as an absolute, correct? If this is your belief, lets take a look see at Rom. 5:12; "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned." As we can see in this passage, Paul is making the connection between death and sin. He says "death spread to all men because all men sinned." That "because" is very important. So, if absolutely "ALL" men have sinned, as you claim, then we should see from the Word of God that absolutely "ALL" men have died, right? Well, seems like a bit of a problem here coffee4u. Did "ALL" men die? No. The Bible tells us Enoch never died - Hebrews 11:5; Genesis 5:24. So, "all" is not an absolute, would you not agree? Furthermore, since sin leads to death, and Enoch did not die, he must not have sinned, right?

Not only that, the Bible also tells us that Elijah never died - he was taken up to Heaven in a fiery chariot - 2 Kings 2:10-12. So, again, "ALL" doesn't mean absolutely "ALL," does it? Furthermore, since sin leads to death, and Elijah did not die, he must not have sinned, right? Also, we know that Jesus died. So, if death is because of sin, and Jesus died, then Jesus must have sinned, right? After all, it says "all" and "all" means absolutely "all", doesn't it? Then did Jesus sin? Of course not!
Also In the Protestant King James Version, Romans 5:18 says, "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life."


Obviously Enoch and Elijah are special cases. This is God's world, he can do a miracle if he so chooses.
We both agree they didn't die, yes? Why do we agree? Scripture.

Genesis 5:23-24
23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.


And if someone was uncertain as to what Geneses 5 meant they could look up Hebrews. Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

Same for Elijah
2 Kings 2:11

11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

If you are trying to get me to agree that Mary never sinned or never died then you will need to find scripture saying so. If there is no scripture you have no case.



So coffee4u, do you believe ALL men are saved? After all, Paul does say "ALL" men are acquitted and receive life because of Jesus. Do you believe in universal salvation? I doubt it.

All men who come in faith are saved yes.


Here are some words from Catholic apologist John Martignoni who's web site I often refer too that may be of interest:

"The Bible also says, in Romans chapter 3, that “None is righteous, no not one,” (Rom 3:10). Yet, the Bible is filled with people who are called “righteous” - Gen 6:9 (Noah), Psalms 14:5 (a whole generation of righteous folks), Luke 1:6 (Zechariah and Elizabeth), James 5:16 (the prayer of a righteous man), and many more places throughout the Old and New Testaments where the righteous are spoken of. So, either the Bible contradicts itself, or Romans 3:10 is not an absolute.
Also, in Romans 3, it says “No one does good, not even one,” (Rom 3:12). Yet, in many places throughout the Bible people’s good works and good deeds are spoken of. Again, is this a contradiction in God’s Word, or when Scripture says “no one...not even one,” it is not speaking in absolute terms?
One more example, from this same passage in Romans 3 that tells us “all have sinned.” Rom 3:11, “...no one seeks for God.” Are you seeking for God? I am. I know a lot of other people who are, as well. I’ll bet you are, too. But the Bible tells us “no one” is seeking God. So what’s going on here?
What’s going on is that Paul is not talking in absolute terms about all individuals who have walked the earth. He is talking about two groups of people - Jews and Greeks. And he is telling the Jews that they, like the Greeks (or the Gentiles), are also sinners. We see this in verse 9 of Romans 3. So, when Paul says that “all” have sinned, he means members of both groups, not necessarily absolutely all people who have ever lived. If he was speaking in absolutes, then what about Jesus? Did He sin? Of course not! So, there is at least one exception to “all have sinned,” which means it is not an absolute. And, if there is one exception, that allows for the possibility of another."

Romans 3, "No one does good, not even one,” is Paul quoting from Psalm 14 about the unregenerate man.
There is a difference between unregenerate man, those who are still lost in their sin and those who are born again.
Yes all have sinned. A born again man has had his sins forgiven but that does not mean he didn't sin.

Romans 5:8


8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


As this thread has already said time and time again, we know that ALL is referring to ALL normal humanity. Normal human beings have both a mother and a father. We have already gone over the fact that Jesus was not just a normal flesh and blood man, he had no human father, he was God come in the flesh.
He became flesh for us:
John 1:1
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
But we agree that Jesus was also God
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
You can't point to verses about humanity and try and say this includes Jesus when you know very well it doesn't.


I'm sorry coffee4u, but there is a bit of a problem here. Problem being, Firstly, Romans 3:11 does not say, "No one seeks God unless God calls them." It seems to me you are adding words to this passage. Again, what it actually say's is,,,, "No one seeks God" Not "No one seeks God unless God calls them."

Unregenerate man does not seek after God on his own.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.


If this is your case for Mary never dying and never sinning you have not made a case at all because you have quoted no scripture stating either of those two things. There is clearly scripture on Enoch and Elijah, so show me the clear scripture stating that Mary did not die and the scripture saying she did not sin.

With that being said, it sounds as if you are telling me that "no one" does not actually mean no one? That "no one" is not an absolute? Is that what you are saying?
So, as you can see as I pointed out, what you state as fact in Rom.3:11, are words that I do not find in the Bible. ("unless God calls them") It is, for the most part, coffee4u words that you gave me,.... i.e. your personal interpretation of God's Word. So....coffee4u, should I believe your fallible personal interpretation/opinion of Scripture you gave me, or the actual Word of God? And that is my general issue with your answer. So much of what you state as fact, are words that I do not find in the Bible. It is, for the most part, coffee4u words that you gave me........ your non-authoritative, fallible, and personal interpretation of God's Word.

Have a Blessed Day!

I believe scripture as written.
Romans 3:23

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

It says All have sinned, so ALL have sinned.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Okay, so we can be clear, it is your belief that when Scripture says "all" that 'all' is meant as an absolute, correct? If this is your belief, lets take a look see at Rom. 5:12; "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned." As we can see in this passage, Paul is making the connection between death and sin. He says "death spread to all men because all men sinned." That "because" is very important. So, if absolutely "ALL" men have sinned, as you claim, then we should see from the Word of God that absolutely "ALL" men have died, right? Well, seems like a bit of a problem here coffee4u. Did "ALL" men die? No. The Bible tells us Enoch never died - Hebrews 11:5; Genesis 5:24. So, "all" is not an absolute, would you not agree? Furthermore, since sin leads to death, and Enoch did not die, he must not have sinned, right?

Not only that, the Bible also tells us that Elijah never died - he was taken up to Heaven in a fiery chariot - 2 Kings 2:10-12. So, again, "ALL" doesn't mean absolutely "ALL," does it? Furthermore, since sin leads to death, and Elijah did not die, he must not have sinned, right? Also, we know that Jesus died. So, if death is because of sin, and Jesus died, then Jesus must have sinned, right? After all, it says "all" and "all" means absolutely "all", doesn't it? Then did Jesus sin? Of course not!
Also In the Protestant King James Version, Romans 5:18 says, "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life."

So coffee4u, do you believe ALL men are saved? After all, Paul does say "ALL" men are acquitted and receive life because of Jesus. Do you believe in universal salvation? I doubt it.
Here are some words from Catholic apologist John Martignoni who's web site I often refer too that may be of interest:

"The Bible also says, in Romans chapter 3, that “None is righteous, no not one,” (Rom 3:10). Yet, the Bible is filled with people who are called “righteous” - Gen 6:9 (Noah), Psalms 14:5 (a whole generation of righteous folks), Luke 1:6 (Zechariah and Elizabeth), James 5:16 (the prayer of a righteous man), and many more places throughout the Old and New Testaments where the righteous are spoken of. So, either the Bible contradicts itself, or Romans 3:10 is not an absolute.
Also, in Romans 3, it says “No one does good, not even one,” (Rom 3:12). Yet, in many places throughout the Bible people’s good works and good deeds are spoken of. Again, is this a contradiction in God’s Word, or when Scripture says “no one...not even one,” it is not speaking in absolute terms?
One more example, from this same passage in Romans 3 that tells us “all have sinned.” Rom 3:11, “...no one seeks for God.” Are you seeking for God? I am. I know a lot of other people who are, as well. I’ll bet you are, too. But the Bible tells us “no one” is seeking God. So what’s going on here?
What’s going on is that Paul is not talking in absolute terms about all individuals who have walked the earth. He is talking about two groups of people - Jews and Greeks. And he is telling the Jews that they, like the Greeks (or the Gentiles), are also sinners. We see this in verse 9 of Romans 3. So, when Paul says that “all” have sinned, he means members of both groups, not necessarily absolutely all people who have ever lived. If he was speaking in absolutes, then what about Jesus? Did He sin? Of course not! So, there is at least one exception to “all have sinned,” which means it is not an absolute. And, if there is one exception, that allows for the possibility of another."



I'm sorry coffee4u, but there is a bit of a problem here. Problem being, Firstly, Romans 3:11 does not say, "No one seeks God unless God calls them." It seems to me you are adding words to this passage. Again, what it actually say's is,,,, "No one seeks God" Not "No one seeks God unless God calls them." With that being said, it sounds as if you are telling me that "no one" does not actually mean no one? That "no one" is not an absolute? Is that what you are saying?
So, as you can see as I pointed out, what you state as fact in Rom.3:11, are words that I do not find in the Bible. ("unless God calls them") It is, for the most part, coffee4u words that you gave me,.... i.e. your personal interpretation of God's Word. So....coffee4u, should I believe your fallible personal interpretation/opinion of Scripture you gave me, or the actual Word of God? And that is my general issue with your answer. So much of what you state as fact, are words that I do not find in the Bible. It is, for the most part, coffee4u words that you gave me........ your non-authoritative, fallible, and personal interpretation of God's Word.

Have a Blessed Day!
Hebrews 11:5
Enoch was carried away from this earth, so he never died. The Scriptures tell us that before he was carried off, he was a man who pleased God. Later, no one knew where he was, because God had taken Enoch to be with him. This all happened because he had faith.
 
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Fidelibus

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I believe scripture as written.
Romans 3:23: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
It says All have sinned, so ALL have sinned.

So then you must believe that babies have sinned. You must believe those who born severely mentally handicapped have also sinned. I mean you did say you believe scripture as written, and that scripture says "ALL" have sinned, so "ALL" have sinned. Those are your words. And then we have Lk. 1:6. Scripture says that Elizabeth and Zechariah were both “righteous” before God, “walking in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” Again, as you said "Scripture says.... All have sinned, so ALL have sinned." as an absolute, so it must be your belief that they, in fact, did not walk in "ALL" the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless? So, is Scripture wrong here?

Obviously Enoch and Elijah are special cases. This is God's world, he can do a miracle if he so chooses.

So you agree there are exceptions.

We both agree they didn't die, yes? Why do we agree? Scripture.

I will always agree with Scripture, but will not always agree with your fallible, non-authoritative opinion or personal interpretation of God's Word, which is subject to error.....correct?

And if someone was uncertain as to what Geneses 5 meant they could look up Hebrews. Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.
Same for Elijah; 2 Kings 2:11: 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Again, I will always believe in the Word of God, but will not always agree with your fallible, non-authoritative opinion or personal interpretation of God's Word, which is subject to error. And let's not forget, you did say, "Obviously Enoch and Elijah are special cases. This is God's world, he can do a miracle if he so chooses." Which I take you to mean there are exceptions, and Mary very well could be one of those exceptions.

If you are trying to get me to agree that Mary never sinned or never died then you will need to find scripture saying so.

I'm sorry, you may be an adherent to the unbiblical belief that all we need to know as a sole rule of faith can be found in the Bible, but I will not be held to your man- made, un-biblical theological doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

If there is no scripture you have no case.

I'm sorry Coffee4u, but to contend that the Bible being silent about something means it didn't happen, or that it isn't worthy of belief by Christians, is just a bad argument. That's is known as an argument from silence, and arguments of this type are very weak. Think about it, for you to accept this premise that if it's not in the Bible then it didn't happen, well then you could also make an argument that Jesus never went to the bathroom, because nowhere in the bible does it ever say he did, so that must mean He never did. Sorry, but that's bad logic as well as a bad argumentation methodology.

All men who come in faith are saved yes.

That's not what I asked. I asked if you believe in universal salvation

Romans 3, "No one does good, not even one,” is Paul quoting from Psalm 14 about the unregenerate man.
There is a difference between unregenerate man, those who are still lost in their sin and those who are born again.
Yes all have sinned. A born again man has had his sins forgiven but that does not mean he didn't sin.
Romans 5:8; 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

You know coffee4u, I probably should have asked you this right up front, but is it fair to say that everything you have said here, outside of quoting Scripture directly, are the words of a fallible person who has no authority whatsoever outside of that which you have vested in yourself? I ask this because you rest many of your argumentative points of yours, not on the Word of God, but on your fallible, non-authoritative opinion...... the Word of coffee4u, so to speak. Would you also agree that your words outside of quoting Scripture directly is nothing more than your fallible opinion? And, would you further agree that when I disagree with your fallible opinion, as I do in many cases, that you have no authority, outside of your fallible opinion, to declare me wrong?

As this thread has already said time and time again, we know that ALL is referring to ALL normal humanity. Normal human beings have both a mother and a father.

I'm sorry, but here again, these words are nothing more than your personal fallible, and non-authoritative opinion that has zero authority whatsoever outside of that which you have vested in yourself.

He became flesh for us: John 1:1
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I'm sorry, but that's not how my Bible reads Jn.1:1. (The new American bible, second edition) It reads as Jn.1:1; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Even the Protestant KJV bible reads Jn. 1:1 as..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
The word 'flesh' is in neither, that's something you added.

But we agree that Jesus was also God

Yes

You can't point to verses about humanity and try and say this includes Jesus when you know very well it doesn't.

Again, an argument from silence, followed by your personal/non-authoritative and fallible opinion that is subject to error. Remember coffee4u, arguments of this type are very weak.

Unregenerate man does not seek after God on his own.

Bible verse that says this please?

1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

I'm sorry, but your own Protestant version of the Bible (KJV) does not read 1 Cor. 2:14 this way. It reads...."But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
What version do you use?

If this is your case for Mary never dying and never sinning you have not made a case at all because you have quoted no scripture stating either of those two things.

I hate to keep sounding like a broken record Coffee4u.........but again, another argument from silence, followed by your personal/non-authoritative and fallible opinion that is subject to error.

There is clearly scripture on Enoch and Elijah, so show me the clear scripture stating that Mary did not die and the scripture saying she did not sin.

How about I use your strategy of silence. Show me in Scripture where it says that Mary personally sinned? Good luck! ;)

Have a Blessed Day!
 
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