What synod are you?

[ByzantineDixie]

Like I said, I have many of the same questions about the LCMS now. It is no longer a safe haven of orthodoxy. In fact, just when I've come to realize the blessings of Lutheran (i.e. Christian) teaching, I realize the synod to which I belong is wandering in some bad directions. We all must ask whether we are "walking together" with those who teach falsely, and obscure the work of Christ by obscuring the Word of God. It's not only an "ELCA thing."

And it seems CWM and I share a boat as well.

And I have looked high and low, East and West, and I have found no place to go yet. I really believe in orthodox Lutheranism. Yet a Lutheran splinter group just doesn't seem right. It's just a mess. My hope rests in those who still maintain orthodoxy in beliefs AND practice, may their influence grow and flourish. The Church has been through rough times before...yet she prevails.

Peace

Rose

 

[SPALATIN]

Here's what I think. I may not agree with the ELCA stand on Women Clergy, Abortion or Homosexuality, but I never for once believe that these issues should be a barrier to civil discussion or a terminal end to relationships between our synods. We may not be in Altar and pulpit fellowship with each other, but that doesn't mean that we can't share our faith here.

God is bigger than these issues and yes they are "hot-button" at times, but for all practical purposes we will just have to agree to disagree on them and move on. Let's remember though that they will creep up again and we will have to work them out as civily as possible. The whole idea here is not to offend others but to say why we believe an issue is right or wrong and leave it to the other to either agree or disagree and not to continue an argument for the sake of arguing.

 

[Willy]

RedneckLutheran --

I don't think anyone has told you what you believe. But rev's post DID speak to what the ELCA officially believes. If you find yourself tensing up at those things, you could ask yourself two things:

1. Is his post an accurate reflection of official ELCA teaching?
2. If it is accurate, what does that say about my current synodical affiliation?

Like I said, I have many of the same questions about the LCMS now. It is no longer a safe haven of orthodoxy. In fact, just when I've come to realize the blessings of Lutheran (i.e. Christian) teaching, I realize the synod to which I belong is wandering in some bad directions. We all must ask whether we are "walking together" with those who teach falsely, and obscure the work of Christ by obscuring the Word of God. It's not only an "ELCA thing."

That's pretty amazing that the Missouri Synod is getting too liberal. Wow! Can't imagine it. For some, "orthodox" is never "orthodox enough."

 

[SPALATIN]

That's pretty amazing that the Missouri Synod is getting too liberal. Wow! Can't imagine it. For some, "orthodox" is never "orthodox enough."

If that were the case the Orthodox would have gone the way of Lotar.

 

[Qoheleth]

I like the low-church service, I know that a liturgical service becomes mindless chanting to me after awhile, I am not accussing others of mindlessly chanting their liturgy, it is a sin that I commit if I constantly attend liturgical services.

The low-church service leaves more time for the sermon.

What, more time for the pastor to show his qualities??

Mindless chanting, is this like mindless "praise music"?

This all sounds very anti-Lutheran, as we are a very Liturgical church.


Well, what else of our Lutheran faith and practice can we toss to the curb?

Q

 

[revjpw]

I have many of the same questions about the LCMS now. It is no longer a safe haven of orthodoxy. In fact, just when I've come to realize the blessings of Lutheran (i.e. Christian) teaching, I realize the synod to which I belong is wandering in some bad directions. We all must ask whether we are "walking together" with those who teach falsely, and obscure the work of Christ by obscuring the Word of God. It's not only an "ELCA thing."

The LCMS isn't as bad off as some would make it to be. The extreme right makes a lot of noise, but don't let them scare you too much.


One of the other big differences between the LCMS and the ELCA has to do with polity and the structure of the church body. The ELCA is Magesterial. They have a hierarchical system of Bishops that is governed from the top down. The LCMS is Ministerial. The polity is congregational (from the bottom up) and membership in the Synod is completely voluntary. The synod acts in an advisory capacity. The assumption is that all congregations who are members of the synod agree with what the synod holds, teaches, and confesses. The problems arise when certain members of synod (congregations and/or pastors) stray from those teachings. The LCMS needs to do a little better policing of its membership, something they have been rather lax in the past few years.

The ELCA congregations, on the other hand, are basically stuck. They are free to leave the church body, but in a vast majority of cases they must leave their church properties and assets behind, something that a vast majority of congregations cannot afford.

 

[revjpw]

we are a very Liturgical church.

 

[SPALATIN]

The LCMS isn't as bad off as some would make it to be. The extreme right makes a lot of noise, but don't let them scare you too much.


One of the other big differences between the LCMS and the ELCA has to do with polity and the structure of the church body. The ELCA is Magesterial. They have a hierarchical system of Bishops that is governed from the top down. The LCMS is Ministerial. The polity is congregational (from the bottom up) and membership in the Synod is completely voluntary. The synod acts in an advisory capacity. The assumption is that all congregations who are members of the synod agree with what the synod holds, teaches, and confesses. The problems arise when certain members of synod (congregations and/or pastors) stray from those teachings. The LCMS needs to do a little better policing of its membership, something they have been rather lax in the past few years.

The ELCA congregations, on the other hand, are basically stuck. They are free to leave the church body, but in a vast majority of cases they must leave their church properties and assets behind, something that a vast majority of congregations cannot afford.

I like your assessment of the two.

It might also be that when an ELCA church wants to add more buildings to it's campus that the Synod loans the money to them and are in effect their collateral should the loan be defaulted by the congregation.

 

[Protoevangel]

One of the other big differences between the LCMS and the ELCA has to do with polity and the structure of the church body. The ELCA is Magesterial. They have a hierarchical system of Bishops that is governed from the top down. The LCMS is Ministerial. The polity is congregational (from the bottom up) and membership in the Synod is completely voluntary. The synod acts in an advisory capacity. The assumption is that all congregations who are members of the synod agree with what the synod holds, teaches, and confesses. The problems arise when certain members of synod (congregations and/or pastors) stray from those teachings. The LCMS needs to do a little better policing of its membership, something they have been rather lax in the past few years.

How DARE you presume to know how our church policy is structured? I am so offended that you would call me personally Magesterial!

Sorry, no offence is intended to anyone. I am simply trying to illustrate how I see some of the posts where people are taking personally, what is being said about the ELCA corporatly. No one ever suggested that to be ELCA, one must by association, be a Kevorkianite homosexual abortion doctor. Noooooot that you are a bad person if you are... no offence intended to you by that careless remark either.

And if we've already moved past all this, and I'm just thumping on an expired equidae... Sorry.

 

[SPALATIN]

How DARE you presume to know how our church policy is structured? I am so offended that you would call me personally Magesterial!

Sorry, no offence is intended to anyone. I am simply trying to illustrate how I see some of the posts where people are taking personally, what is being said about the ELCA corporatly. No one ever suggested that to be ELCA, one must by association, be a Kevorkianite homosexual abortion doctor. Noooooot that you are a bad person if you are... no offence intended to you by that careless remark either.

And if we've already moved past all this, and I'm just thumping on an expired equidae... Sorry.

Kevorkian? Isn't he dead? or at least in prison? I noticed they were very careful not to bring his name up in regards to Terri Schiavo.

 

[pastel]

Here's what I think. I may not agree with the ELCA stand on Women Clergy, Abortion or Homosexuality, but I never for once believe that these issues should be a barrier to civil discussion or a terminal end to relationships between our synods. We may not be in Altar and pulpit fellowship with each other, but that doesn't mean that we can't share our faith here.

God is bigger than these issues and yes they are "hot-button" at times, but for all practical purposes we will just have to agree to disagree on them and move on. Let's remember though that they will creep up again and we will have to work them out as civily as possible. The whole idea here is not to offend others but to say why we believe an issue is right or wrong and leave it to the other to either agree or disagree and not to continue an argument for the sake of arguing.

Agreed!

However, I have noted that even the members of ELCA have disagreements with their own synod. I hope something can be done to straighten everything out with them. Further splits are not the answer, either. Like Luther, who didn't want to split from the Catholic Church to begin with, I feel we must all try to mend the rifts. Somehow?

 

[SPALATIN]

Agreed!

However, I have noted that even the members of ELCA have disagreements with their own synod. I hope something can be done to straighten everything out with them. Further splits are not the answer, either. Like Luther, who didn't want to split from the Catholic Church to begin with, I feel we must all try to mend the rifts. Somehow?

Charlene,

I would say that in a situation where one finds that the truth is not being taught nor confessed as scripture warrants it should be one should remove himself from the church so as not to get caught up in their lies. I am not saying this just about the ELCA here lest anyone think that I am picking on them, but any church or synod where the teaching has strayed from the truth should be left if they will not confess their sin and repent. So if the LCMS church had started to teach something other than what they should teach you can go to the Pastor and Elders and tell them so and ask them to repent. If they do not you have every right to leave and go where the truth is being taught.

Don't stay somewhere for the sake of unity and mending rifts if the truth will never be taught again.

Scott

 

[Flipper]

Scott,

What's most important - the Bible, or Liturgy?

 

[Qoheleth]

What's most important - the Bible, or Liturgy?

Whats more important, Christ's divinity or His humanity?

Whats more important, Baptism or Holy Communion?

Whats more important, Grace or faith?


I say this to show how a divided theology in practice and vocation only serves to dismantle the holistic approach to our communion with God and each other.

Q

 

[LCMS Lutheran]

Agreed!

However, I have noted that even the members of ELCA have disagreements with their own synod. I hope something can be done to straighten everything out with them. Further splits are not the answer, either. Like Luther, who didn't want to split from the Catholic Church to begin with, I feel we must all try to mend the rifts. Somehow?

This is very true. In all reality, as much as I don't want to admit it, there is division in the LCMS as well. No matter how small or insignificant some issues may be, the fact that they even exist gets blown way out of proportion.
Further splits are definitely not the answer, I agree. I think we all need to remember Luther, and return to our roots, so to speak. Confessional Lutheranism needs to be revived where it currently is on its way out.

 

[Flipper]

Whats more important, Christ's divinity or His humanity?

Whats more important, Baptism or Holy Communion?

Whats more important, Grace or faith?


I say this to show how a divided theology in practice and vocation only serves to dimantle the holistic approach to our communion with God and each other.

Q

That doesn't answer my question, though. What you just said confuses me more. Thank you very much.

 

[LCMS Lutheran]

The Bible. Without the Bible we would not know the significance of liturgy.

 

[SPALATIN]

Scott,

What's most important - the Bible, or Liturgy?

good question Flipper. Bible has the Word of God in it, but so does Liturgy in that is uses the word of God within it. but I would put the word above liturgy in the sense that it can stand on it's own. The liturgy without the word can not stand alone.

 

[Flipper]

good question Flipper. Bible has the Word of God in it, but so does Liturgy in that is uses the word of God within it. but I would put the word above liturgy in the sense that it can stand on it's own. The liturgy without the word can not stand alone.

Ok, I see that.

But liturgy is what makes us Lutheran, right (along with confessions and other things, but humor me here)? Or least that's what I seem to be reading in this thread.

Without liturgy, you may still be a Christian, but not necessarily Lutheran.

In other words, am I following this correctly?

 

[Qoheleth]

That doesn't answer my question, though. What you just said confuses me more. Thank you very much.

My point is that when we begin to compartmentalize our faith by assigning gradations of importance without seeing the larger picture, we begin to handicap our sacramental life and vocation.

Q