What synod are you?

[LCMS Lutheran]

I wish we'd be able to come together too. But when either side starts saying "I know for a fact that I and my interpretations of Scripture are right and yours are wrong and I won't even discuss it with you with an open mind that maybe I'm wrong" (and both ELCA and LCMS does this), it's kinda hard to come together.

Just to clarify, the ELCA rejects most scripture, and the LCMS literally applies it to life, saying it is inerrant. There really is no "interpretation" taking place here, depending on how you define the word.

 

[Willy]

Just to clarify, the ELCA rejects most scripture, and the LCMS literally applies it to life, saying it is inerrant. There really is no "interpretation" taking place here, depending on how you define the word.

Didn't know we did that. We ELCA'ers should know that we reject scripture. That's funny since it is the source of our preaching and teaching. No, we are not literalists. Most literalists are not literalists. They are selective literalists. Literalism is really impossible. Sadly, most literalists don't recognize this.

 

[LCMS Lutheran]

You reject the inerrancy of the Bible!!!!!!!!! Of course there's interpretation, where isn't there?

 

[KagomeShuko]

Just to clarify, the ELCA rejects most scripture, and the LCMS literally applies it to life, saying it is inerrant. There really is no "interpretation" taking place here, depending on how you define the word.

it really bothers me when people say things like this. . .I'm very active in the ELCA. . .and, having people say things like this. . .well, they just aren't true. . .unless you're on the inside of everything, how do you know this?

I know we allow discussions and debates, and I don't like participating in these because they are so touchy and being ELCA and having to hear these things is quite bothersome. . .

you may think that. . .and you are entitled to your opinion. . .but when I read things so blantantly against the ELCA like this, it is very upsetting to me. . .

Scripture is VERY important to the ELCA. . .believe it or not - all the gatherings - any type of gathering - that they have is based around scripture.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[Lutherrunner]

What was the real purpose of starting this thread, and where is it going?...............

 

[LCMS Lutheran]

I was a member of the ELCA for almost 13 years of my life. I know what goes on. I know what happens. I am not shooting my mouth about things I do not know about. My criticisms come from my personal experience. Sorry if I offended, but I am stating fact. Go to the ELCA's website, they state their beliefs plainly.

 

[KagomeShuko]

I was a member of the ELCA for almost 13 years of my life. I know what goes on. I know what happens. I am not shooting my mouth about things I do not know about. My criticisms come from my personal experience. Sorry if I offended, but I am stating fact. Go to the ELCA's website, they state their beliefs plainly.

I am ELCA, I have been to their website many times, and to say that we reject MOST scripture is a very, very low blow. What you said in that post was quite offensive to me, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was to other people in the ELCA, either. You don't like it, that's fine. . .but don't come here and bash the ELCA, please.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[Lutherrunner]

I was a member of the ELCA for almost 13 years of my life. I know what goes on. I know what happens. I am not shooting my mouth about things I do not know about. My criticisms come from my personal experience. Sorry if I offended, but I am stating fact. Go to the ELCA's website, they state their beliefs plainly.

Again....and I repeat:

What was the real purpose of starting this thread, and where is it going?...............

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Alright gang...An ELCA bashing thread will not be tolerated here. We have had some very civil disagreements regarding the synods in the past so I know a civil discussion can be maintained but this is rapidly degenerating.

If you have an issue about what the other synod believes and you are going to tell the folks in that synod what they believe...state your issue but back up your claims with documentation or let it go.

Let's stick to facts presented unemotionally (and many have done this in this thread I thank you for that). There are people on the other side of that monitor. Let's remember that.

Peace

Luthers Rose
Moderator
Theologia Crucis - Confessional Lutherans

 

[revjpw]

The big difference between LCMS and ELCA, where the Scripture is concerned, has to do with how they interpret the Scriptures. The LCMS holds that the Bible IS the inerrant, inspired word of the living God and the only source and norm of all teaching in the Church. This basically means that all of Scripture is relevent to the Church today and for all time.

The ELCA looks at Scripture differently. They hold to a historical-critical method of interpreting Scripture. In other words, there are parts of the Bible that only pertain to a particular place and time in history and are not necessarily relevent today. While they do indeed agree with the LCMS that the inerrant, inspired word of God is the only source and norm of teaching in the Church, the big difference is 'what is the inerrant, inspired word of God? The whole of Scripture or only those parts which are relevent to the Church today?' The ELCA will say that the Bible CONTAINS the inerrant, inspired word of God (which is the only source and norm of all teaching in the Church), but that there are parts of the Bible that are not.

This is why they ordain women. They hold that those places in the Bible which forbid it was only relevent to that place and time in history and does not apply today. That is why they tolerate the homosexual lifestyle. They hold that those places in the Bible that speak against it are only relevent to that place and time in history and does not apply today. That is why they tolerate abortion on demand. They hold that the Biblical teaching "thou shall not murder" does not apply to abortion because abortion was not even a concept at the time in history when the Fifth Commandment was written.

That is the difference.

 

[Lutherrunner]

Rev, did the moderator just ask you to knock off the ELCA bashing? Perhaps we need separate forums? I think it's about time for a lock......

 

[Rechtgläubig]

What was the real purpose of starting this thread, and where is it going?...............

lol


http://www.branders.com/media/images/productCat/bs/00-0000-6054-bs_48d.jpg

 

[AngelusSax]

Just to clarify, the ELCA rejects most scripture, and the LCMS literally applies it to life, saying it is inerrant. There really is no "interpretation" taking place here, depending on how you define the word.

No, the ELCA just finds the applications of Scripture in our lives. And the ELCA recognizes a personal letter when it sees one. Just to clarify.

If I wrote a personal letter and in it I said something like "yeah, only tall people can see Jesus", and it somehow, for some reason got canonized... would people thousands of years from now know I was joking (the historical context that would come into play there)?

ELCA sees the point of "husband of but one wife" as monogomy instead of ploygamy. Women shall not teach as "you don't know anything yet, so stop overstepping", and "be silent" as "Don't be disrupting by yelling across the room to your hubbies".

It's not a rejection of Scripture. It's what we see as a valid application of said Scripture. Just cuz you don't like it doesn't mean we're rejecting.

PS: I really, really don't like the ELCA approach to abortion... now on that issue I'm much more ready to say they've rejected Scripture. I'm still trying to find out their reasoning... maybe it'll make sense enough that I'll not say they're rejecting, but merely misinterpreting.

 

[Protoevangel]

Rev, did the moderator just ask you to knock off the ELCA bashing? Perhaps we need separate forums? I think it's about time for a lock......

Lutherrunner, I know you are sensitive on this issue, but really, Rev did no bashing.

The big difference between LCMS and ELCA, where the Scripture is concerned, has to do with how they interpret the Scriptures. The LCMS holds that the Bible IS the inerrant, inspired word of the living God and the only source and norm of all teaching in the Church. This basically means that all of Scripture is relevent to the Church today and for all time.

This is absolutely true, this is not only the LCMS view, but also the view of the historic Lutheran church.

The ELCA looks at Scripture differently. They hold to a historical-critical method of interpreting Scripture. In other words, there are parts of the Bible that only pertain to a particular place and time in history and are not necessarily relevent today. While they do indeed agree with the LCMS that the inerrant, inspired word of God is the only source and norm of teaching in the Church, the big difference is 'what is the inerrant, inspired word of God? The whole of Scripture or only those parts which are relevent to the Church today?' The ELCA will say that the Bible CONTAINSthe inerrant, inspired word of God (which is the only source and norm of all teaching in the Church), but that there are parts of the Bible that are not.

This is absolutely true as well. THe ELCA website states as much a number of times, including in the below link.. On the ELCA FAQ, when asked: "Do ELCA Lutherans believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God?", notice the answer, and how it dances around the question without directly answering it.

This is why they ordain women. They hold that those places in the Bible which forbid it was only relevent to that place and time in history and does not apply today.

Again, absolutely correct. Can we approve of women pastors without explaining away 1 Tim. 2, 1 Cor. 14:34-35, 1 Tim. 3:2,4, Titus 1:6, etc.? I'm not here to argue the question, all I am doing is showing you that there is no 'bashing' going on here.

That is why they tolerate the homosexual lifestyle. They hold that those places in the Bible that speak against it are only relevent to that place and time in history and does not apply today.

This is also true, even if somewhat overstated. It is true that the ELCA does not officially approve of homosexual pastors or homosexual marriage, but the pro-homosexual agenda is indeed being pushed by the highest levels of the ELCA. The reason for that certianly is not because of a high regard for the Inerrant Word of God.

That is why they tolerate abortion on demand. They hold that the Biblical teaching "thou shall not murder" does not apply to abortion because abortion was not even a concept at the time in history when the Fifth Commandment was written..

Did you know that ELCA insurance provides coverage for Abortion on demand? Once again, Lutherrunner, I don't see where you get the idea that there is any 'bashing' going on. Some earlier comments have been a little over the line, but not since Rose asked for some temperance. I know you are ELCA, and don't like to see the facts, but this is the real stuff, like it or not.


Luther's Rose asked: " Let's stick to facts presented unemotionally... " Let's also try to respond without playing the victim as well, OK?

 

[Music4Hym777]

My congregation is ELCA on the books, but a mix of ELCA and LCMS in doctrine.

 

[Protoevangel]

Angelus, I've told you before, I like you. You remind me of me a few years ago.

Now, it is quotes like these that worry me:

If I wrote a personal letter and in it I said something like "yeah, only tall people can see Jesus", and it somehow, for some reason got canonized... would people thousands of years from now know I was joking (the historical context that would come into play there)?

In my opinion, this suggests a lack of respect for the Word. Do we just pull some random writing from some Joe and call it Canonical? Do you have any idea why some books that apparently testify to Jesus, like the Gospel of James are not Canonical? I know you were trying to make a point, but honestly, any point you were trying to make with a statement like this is most likely going to be lost, because of the apparent lack of respect for the Word of God. Those who do hold to innerancy will instantly be turned off here. If that is your intent, so be it... But I think you are a little more interested in genuine conversation than that, my friend.

 

[Rod B]

I notice that there are WELS men, but no WELS women. Are WELS women allowed to use a computer?

Yes my wife is allowed to use the computer, but only if she types silently (just kidding of course).
Actually, after a week of bible study, worship, and WInGS meetings she would rather browse quilt and cross-stich patterns than further discuss religion.

 

[Rechtgläubig]

Yes my wife is allowed to use the computer, but only if she types silently (just kidding of course).
Actually, after a week of bible study, worship, and WInGS meetings she would rather browse quilt and cross-stich patterns than further discuss religion.

lol Rob! My wife hears enough come out of me...


enough said.

 

[revjpw]

No, the ELCA just finds the applications of Scripture in our lives. And the ELCA recognizes a personal letter when it sees one.

If any of Paul's writings were just "personal letters", then how did they make it into the canon of Scripture??? You make absolutely no sense.
The reason it is in the canon of Scripture is BECAUSE it applies to the whole Church of all time. This is where the ELCA is dead wrong.

1Cor 14:33, "As in all the churches of the saints..."

1Cor. 14:37, "the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment."

The only way you can justify your position on any of these issues is to tear down Scripture, pick it apart, call it a "personal letter", or make it out to be a joke. I will continue to pray for you. May God have mercy.

 

[revjpw]

Rev, did the moderator just ask you to knock off the ELCA bashing? Perhaps we need separate forums? I think it's about time for a lock......

No bashing, just the facts.

In 1974 a group of seminary professors walked out of the St. Louis Seminary following an investigation concerning the teaching of the historical-critical method of Biblical interpretation (among other things), which the Church catholic rejects. This group started another seminary that was eventually called Christ Seminary-Seminex. This group also started a new church body called the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches (AELC) which was one of the three church bodies that merged to form the ELCA in 1985. Christ Seminary-Seminex was later absorbed into the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago, an ELCA seminary.

Bottom line, we know what they teach.