What synod are you?

[LCMS Lutheran]

In my opinion, there's no question that the ELCA has distanced itself from the fundamentals of Lutheranism today. It has rejected the inerrancy of the Bible... a fundamental, therefore allowing such things as supporting, and even funding abortion, allowing and blessing same gender unions in some congregations, and the ordination of women and openly homosexual persons. It seems to me that the ELCA is trying to take the Word of God and place it as secondary, while giving the most importance to the pastor's or the person's own personal interpretation.
The ELCA relies on the younger generation who are certainly more liberal in their thinking to keep them afloat. They are about pleasing the masses, and since it is sinful nature to think that women can be pastors, since women can do everything else men can do these days, why not let them? Well the truth is that the Bible, God's Holy and inerrant Word says otherwise. People attack this saying God certainly would have changed His view with the times, but it is my opinion that whenever God says something, it is perfect and Holy and should be obeyed.
Also, what makes one a Lutheran is to accept the Book of Concord, yet the ELCA has rejected parts of this as well. I don't understand how the ELCA gets away with calling itself Lutheran.

God Bless

 

[Zoomer]

I am LCMS because I disagree with ELCAs official stances on many issues. I think that generally LCMS is more in line with historic Biblical and Lutheran teachings.

 

[AngelusSax]

I think the ELCA simply is "erring" on the side of unlimited Grace from God. I don't agree with their stance on abortion (I agree with the part that says individual members are allowed to disagree with it and still be members of the church).

Of course, we've got that whole "task force" going on about the homosexuality thing... you know why some congregations bless same sex couples and homosexual pastors? Right now, there is no policy regarding this matter whatsoever, so anyone doing these things are not outside the boundaries of the church. The task force is designed to come up with a policy... and also so that we will hopefully enforce that celibacy for non-legally married people as equally to heterosexuals as we do to homosexuals. Because apparently, homosexual adultery is evil, but heterosexual adultery is worthy of turning a blind eye to....

The ELCA relies on the younger generation who are certainly more liberal in their thinking to keep them afloat.

There was a time when the older generation of today was younger... and more liberal in thinking. Indeed, we now regard black people as... well, people. That was a "liberal" thought at one point, supposedly in direct conflict with the Bible... Again, perspective. New doesn't mean bad. New just means new.

and since it is sinful nature to think that women can be pastors

It is? It's sinful to hold to the priesthood of all believers for real... and not just the priesthood of all men?

Well the truth is that the Bible, God's Holy and inerrant Word says otherwise.

The truth is that a personal letter of Paul to churches with women who were simply beginning to learn the Word says otherwise. Paul also tells women to be absolutely silent in church. I guess we need to smack women upside the head when they sing hymns in church now, since they're not being silent.

 

[SPALATIN]

It is? It's sinful to hold to the priesthood of all believers for real... and not just the priesthood of all men?



The truth is that a personal letter of Paul to churches with women who were simply beginning to learn the Word says otherwise. Paul also tells women to be absolutely silent in church. I guess we need to smack women upside the head when they sing hymns in church now, since they're not being silent.

C'mon Angelus, This is referring to teaching and preaching only and not to singing hymns. Woman should not have authority over man in these areas. I don't consider this to be only historically contextual but eternally contextual in it's meaning. Certainly in the area of Priesthood of all believers women should witness their faith to other women and to children as well. I am also not saying that a man can't learn from a woman in these matters but that she has no authority over him in matters of debate in scripture.

 

[pastel]

LCMS - and I appreciate that we don't have to keep apologizing for what they do as a whole.

 

[Protoevangel]

I am ELCA.

I was unchurched and my wife was born into the church my family now attends. For the first few years, I didn't know the difference between Lutheranism and any other denomination. I didn't even know we had something called 'confessions'!

Now that I am a confessing Lutheran, I see the "younger brother error" (see Luke 15:11-32) of the ELCA. I stay to teach the true Gospel to the parched.

There is a LCMS church not too far away. I have spoken to the pastor there, this may be an option if the persecution gets to be more than I can bear at my church. My only concern about switching to the LCMS is that instead of the "younger brother error" of the ELCA, I see much "elder brother error" (see again Luke 15:11-32) within the LCMS.

 

[AngelusSax]

This is referring to teaching and preaching only and not to singing hymns.

The thing is, it doesn't say "and they can sing hymns". It says to be silent. Referring not to singing hymns... that's an interpretation you make. But not what it literally says.

Certainly in the area of Priesthood of all believers women should witness their faith to other women and to children as well.

And yet Jesus told Mary to witness her faith to the first disciples... fully grown men. Hmmmmm.... Interesting how Jesus never once, in Gospels written after the letters of Paul were written, tells women to be silent. Even the Gospels are more "liberal" than Paul seemed to be.

 

[IowaLutheran]

I'm ELCA, born ALC, now ELCA since '87 merger.

DanHead, nice perspective on why it is appropriate to stay ELCA even though you have disagreements.

Let's try not to let this thread degenerate into who is Lutheran and who is not. If you want to do that, go to the Lutherquest forums and join the self-idolizing crowd of people who post there.

 

[SPALATIN]

The thing is, it doesn't say "and they can sing hymns". It says to be silent. Referring not to singing hymns... that's an interpretation you make. But not what it literally says.



And yet Jesus told Mary to witness her faith to the first disciples... fully grown men. Hmmmmm.... Interesting how Jesus never once, in Gospels written after the letters of Paul were written, tells women to be silent. Even the Gospels are more "liberal" than Paul seemed to be.

There is a danger in taking everything too literally. There is implicit meaning here but you want to play devil's advocate and stir the pot. So fine be that way. You know darn well what he means by it.

 

[SPALATIN]

I am ELCA.

I was unchurched and my wife was born into the church my family now attends. For the first few years, I didn't know the difference between Lutheranism and any other denomination. I didn't even know we had something called 'confessions'!

Now that I am a confessing Lutheran, I see the "younger brother error" (see Luke 15:11-32) of the ELCA. I stay to teach the true Gospel to the parched.

There is a LCMS church not too far away. I have spoken to the pastor there, this may be an option if the persecution gets to be more than I can bear at my church. My only concern about switching to the LCMS is that instead of the "younger brother error" of the ELCA, I see much "elder brother error" (see again Luke 15:11-32) within the LCMS.

Either way you look at it one of the brother's is sinning.

 

[Protoevangel]

Either way you look at it one of the brother's is sinning.

Actually, I see sin in both brothers' actions. To continue using the Luke-15 account as an example, the younger brother sins by over-assimilation, and the elder sins by over-separation. The father wants them both to come to him, but they both, in their own ways and time refuse the grace offered by their father.

Martin Luther compared applying the Gospel to a drunken man on a horse. The man is constantly falling off to the left (over-assimilation) or to the right (over-separation). I already have a stronger tendency to fall of onto the right than to the left, so to be in congregation with others who do the same would be more dangerous for me, I believe, than being with those guilty of the opposite error. I do feel that the error of the younger brother is more grievous than the error of the elder brother, but in the end, objectively, they both miss the mark.

 

[LCMS Lutheran]

The thing is, it doesn't say "and they can sing hymns". It says to be silent. Referring not to singing hymns... that's an interpretation you make. But not what it literally says.

So now it's wrong to clarify some meanings of things in the Bible? There couldn't possibly be any literary devices used in the Bible?? John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
So... if it's a sin to interpret His words, than Jesus is a wooden door? This argument I have used before but is still relevant to this topic.

That is the problem with the ELCA, you think God's Word is in the Bible, not that the Bible IS God's Word, like confessional Lutherans believe. Therefore, you can say that parts of a passage or of a verse or chapter of the Bible are true, but the others don't apply. To gain a true knowledge of God and His word, you must read the ENTIRE Bible and not omit things or change their meaning to suit your own sinful desires.

And concerning women's roles, people do say that that was just Paul's opinion about the issue and should be viewed as such. That is certainly not consistent with the belief that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. If the Holy Spirit was speaking through Paul, how could the writing possibly be false? That's like questioning God's judgement, which would obviously not fall in the range of things we are capable of doing.

 

[Protoevangel]

The thing is, it doesn't say "and they can sing hymns". It says to be silent. Referring not to singing hymns... that's an interpretation you make. But not what it literally says.

I am still looking into the issue, but I am beginning to lean to the LCMS understanding of women leaders in the church as opposed to the ELCA understanding. The thing about this issue, if you read the whole passage instead of just pulling out a few words out of context, the meaning appears to illuminate itself:

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

The context certianly appears to be regarding teaching, not corporate praise and worship.

I don't have all the answers, I would certianly like to hear from someone who understands the Greek better than I do. Are there any subtleties of meaning that the English doesn't bring out?

 

[LCMS Lutheran]

Hey DanHead, you might want to check out the LCMS's website to find out more about their views. Also, you can click on some of the links to read some essays and things about the Biblical defenses of this practice.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2702

God Bless

 

[Protoevangel]

Hey DanHead, you might want to check out the LCMS's website to find out more about their views. Also, you can click on some of the links to read some essays and things about the Biblical defenses of this practice.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2702

God Bless

The LCMS website & FAQ is one of my more frequently used bookmarks recently. I even subscribe to several of the official LCMS newsletters. Thanks for the link!

 

[LCMS Lutheran]

Not a problem!! I am a member of most of the newsletters too.
I love the Today In History ones the best! lol
Well anyway, glad to be of some help!!

God Bless

 

[Flipper]

LCMS, for a lot of reasons.

I notice that there are WELS men, but no WELS women. Are WELS women allowed to use a computer?

 

[AngelusSax]

So now it's wrong to clarify some meanings of things in the Bible? There couldn't possibly be any literary devices used in the Bible?? John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
So... if it's a sin to interpret His words, than Jesus is a wooden door? This argument I have used before but is still relevant to this topic.

No. I'm simply saying that before one says "But it says women can't be pastors, it's literal!", beware that one also interprets things non-literally. And that applies even to historical context too.

So... take your argument, and make it start heading the other way, and there you have my meaning. It's not a sin to interpret. And just because I interpret different than you doesn't make either of us sinners by default... now coveting our neighbor's ass perhaps....

 

[alabaster jar]

LCMS, but more because it was what I was raised. I like ELCA, too. Wish there was just one Lutheran church and they could come together on things. It's confusing to me and then I wonder who is really right. I don't know.

 

[AngelusSax]

I wish we'd be able to come together too. But when either side starts saying "I know for a fact that I and my interpretations of Scripture are right and yours are wrong and I won't even discuss it with you with an open mind that maybe I'm wrong" (and both ELCA and LCMS does this), it's kinda hard to come together.