What sword do you choose?

[Diamond72]

All seven of the churches address in the Revelation ceased to exist centuries ago. None of them authorized the King James translation of the Bible into English, nor any Bible into any other language. We have a problem.

What problem? You can believe whatever you want. Why should I care? If you have no consideration for me and what I believe, then people will have the same attitude toward you.

I SAID God HIMSELF authorized the KJV. All the translations claim to be authorized by God. I understand your confusion. You are so hooked on the "King James" authority that you forget it is God that needs to authorize the translation.

Look at the description of the 7 churches. Do you honestly feel this does not describe any of the many church in existence today?

Revelation 2:2 I know your deeds, your labor, and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate those who are evil, and you have tested and exposed as liars those who falsely claim to be apostles. 3Without growing weary, you have persevered and endured many things for the sake of My name.

4But I have this against you: You have abandoned your first love.

Yes, there are many churches and they all call themselves something different. But they all claim to be a part of the universal church. It is even in our liturgy. So really, there is only ONE church. Still Revelation tells us there are seven churches and seven Spirits.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I agree with you concerning the role of the KJV in my personal life. As I am sure you know both the KJV and the Douay Rheims have been tweaked over time to improve accuracy and readability. When I ask KJV-centered Christians if they possess, let alone read, the facsimile copy of the 1611 original KJV, they are perplexed and when they actually see it, they struggle with the typeface, especially the use of f for s in many words.

As an aside, The personal ordinariate of the Anglican converts to Catholicism has published Catholic KJV in two paperback volumes; it is an interesting project. Of course they want it for liturgical readings so as to match the English of their Book of Common Prayer. I may attempt to acquire the volumes some time in the future, God willing. The prayer book would also be good to have.

 

[Diamond72]

That's incorrect;

You are guilty of what you accuse others of. So you are "incorrect". All of the descriptions of the seven churches apply to a church in existence today. There is ONLY one Church, but we are told there are seven spirits and seven churches in Revelation. In fact, those seven churches takes up a big part of John's letter. There is a reason this is in our Bible and the Bible continues to hold meaning and relevance for people today, regardless of their religious beliefs. If you have a different opinion then spit it out and tell us what the significance of this passage in the Bible holds for us today.

Revelation 3:16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Do you honestly feel this has no application today and does not describe a modern day church still in existence?Why do we even have a Bible if you feel none of it applies to us today?

Hermeneutics is the study of interpretation, and in the context of religious texts like the Bible, it refers to the principles and methods used to understand and apply the teachings of those texts to contemporary life. Applying the Bible to our lives today involves careful consideration of its historical, cultural, and literary contexts while seeking to extract meaningful and relevant insights for our modern context.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What problem? You can believe whatever you want. Why should I care? If you have no consideration for me and what I believe, then people will have the same attitude toward you.

I SAID God HIMSELF authorized the KJV. All the translations claim to be authorized by God. I understand your confusion. You are so hooked on the "King James" authority that you forget it is God that needs to authorize the translation.

Look at the description of the 7 churches. Do you honestly feel this does not describe any of the many church in existence today?

Revelation 2:2 I know your deeds, your labor, and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate those who are evil, and you have tested and exposed as liars those who falsely claim to be apostles. 3Without growing weary, you have persevered and endured many things for the sake of My name.

4But I have this against you: You have abandoned your first love.

Yes, there are many churches and they all call themselves something different. But they all claim to be a part of the universal church. It is even in our liturgy. So really, there is only ONE church. Still Revelation tells us there are seven churches and seven Spirits.

I see no reason for you to care at all. However, I do appreciate the fact that you care enough to post a rebuttal to my own post.

BTW, I am not going down the road of ascribing metaphorical names and meanings to what are described as literal, physical churches.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As an aside, The personal ordinariate of the Anglican converts to Catholicism has published Catholic KJV in two paperback volumes; it is an interesting project. Of course they want it for liturgical readings so as to match the English of their Book of Common Prayer. I may attempt to acquire the volumes some time in the future, God willing. The prayer book would also be good to have.

That is a great idea.

 

[BobRyan]

There are many study bibles available for many English translations but which of them do you use and why?

I avoid NKJV, NIV, NASB bibles because none of them is available in a Catholic edition.

I use RSC-CE, NABRE, JB, NJB, RNJB, GNB-CE, LB-CE, and especially DRB, Knox, and CTS-New Catholic Bible.

NASB, NKJV, sometimes KJV, sometimes NIV, sometimes others.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You are guilty of what you accuse others of. So you are "incorrect". All of the descriptions of the seven churches apply to a church in existence today. There is ONLY one Church, but we are told there are seven spirits and seven churches in Revelation. In fact, those seven churches takes up a big part of John's letter. There is a reason this is in our Bible and the Bible continues to hold meaning and relevance for people today, regardless of their religious beliefs. If you have a different opinion then spit it out and tell us what the significance of this passage in the Bible holds for us today.

Revelation 3:16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Do you honestly feel this has no application today and does not describe a modern day church still in existence?Why do we even have a Bible if you feel none of it applies to us today?

Hermeneutics is the study of interpretation, and in the context of religious texts like the Bible, it refers to the principles and methods used to understand and apply the teachings of those texts to contemporary life. Applying the Bible to our lives today involves careful consideration of its historical, cultural, and literary contexts while seeking to extract meaningful and relevant insights for our modern context.

Imagine that, you managed to generate a sizeable post out of two words, after ignoring the rest of the words in the post to which you replied with the above message. But for the benefit of myself and any casual reader who happens across this post the expunged words are these:

That's incorrect; there were seven churches in the province of Asia to which saint John was instructed to write. There were many more churches outside of that province and probably many others inside the province of Asia. Nevertheless there was one church that the Lord, Jesus Christ, established and built upon Peter (the rock). And that one church still remains today.​

The passage in Revelation starts with these words:

John, to the seven Churches, which are in Asia. Grace and peace to you, from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are in the sight of his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the leader over the kings of the earth, who has loved us and has washed us from our sins with his blood, and who has made us into a kingdom and into priests for God and for his Father. To him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he arrives with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall lament for themselves over him. Even so. Amen. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. ​

Revelation 1:4-8
And the passage goes on to name each of the seven churches:
to the Angel of the Church of Ephesus write
to the Angel of the Church of Smyrna write
to the Angel of the Church of Pergamus write
to the Angel of the Church of Thyatira write
to the Angel of the Church of Sardis write
to the Angel of the Church of Philadelphia write
to the Angel of the Church of Laodicea write

And the province of Asia looked like this

We know that there was a church in Rome, another in Corinth, one is Thessalonica, one in Antioch, and so on. Many churches outside of the province of Asia and possibly many more than seven in the province of Asia.

And of course, the seven churches are not mentioned in a letter but in the book of Revelation which is also known as The Apocalypse.

 

[Diamond72]

Imagine that, you managed to generate a sizeable post out of two words

I would have to write a book if I commented on everything you said. I try to keep it brief. I have a short attention span so I skip over long posts and just read the short ones. John said if he commented on everything Jesus did, it would take every book in the world.

 

[Diamond72]

There were many more churches

The key here is not the number of churches, the key is the number of spirits. You are free to disagree, but I think every church conforms to the pattern set by one of those seven churches. This is pretty much my own private opinion. It is not something that I read somewhere. Also, we are told there are seven lampstands. If every church had their own lampstand there would be many more than seven.

Including the Spirit of the Lord, and the Spirits of wisdom, of understanding, of counsel, of might, of knowledge and of fear of the LORD, here are represented the seven Spirits, which are before the throne of God.

Revelation 1:20 states that "The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches." The comparison of a teacher to a star is scriptural.

The number seven holds special significance in the Bible and has been a symbol of completeness, perfection, and divine order. It appears repeatedly throughout the Old and New Testaments, carrying both literal and symbolic meanings.

The number seven often symbolizes completeness or fullness. For example, when God completed His creation, it was on the seventh day. In the book of Revelation, the seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven bowls represent a complete vision of God's plan for the end times.

 

[Diamond72]

BTW, I am not going down the road of ascribing metaphorical names and meanings to what are described as literal, physical churches.

Then you do not understand the basic rules of interpretation.

1. Context is Key: Understanding the context of a passage is crucial for accurate interpretation. This includes considering the historical, cultural, literary, and linguistic context of the passage. This helps to grasp the original meaning intended by the author.
2. Literal and Figurative Interpretation: Recognize whether a passage is intended to be taken literally or figuratively. The Bible uses various literary forms, such as poetry, parables, and allegories, which require different modes of interpretation.
3. Author's Intention: Try to discern the author's intention and message for the original audience. This involves understanding the historical circumstances, cultural background, and purpose of the text.
4. Let Scripture Interpret Scripture: Use other passages from the Bible to shed light on a particular text. Compare related verses and passages to ensure consistency in interpretation.
5. Use of Metaphors and Symbols: Be aware of metaphors, symbols, and imagery used in the Bible. These elements convey deeper meanings that might not be immediately apparent.
6. Progressive Revelation: Recognize that the Bible's message unfolds progressively across its books and chapters. Later parts of the Bible can provide additional insight into earlier passages.
7. Theological Consistency: Interpret a passage in light of the Bible's overall teachings and theology. Avoid interpretations that contradict established biblical principles.
8. Avoid Anachronism: Don't impose modern concepts, beliefs, or perspectives onto ancient texts. Instead, strive to understand the text within its historical and cultural context.
9. Historical-Grammatical Approach: This approach emphasizes understanding the original meaning of the text through analysis of grammar, vocabulary, and historical context.
10. Prayer and Guidance: Seek guidance through prayer and study. Many believe that the Holy Spirit can provide insight and understanding into the Scriptures.
11. Respect Diversity of Interpretation: Recognize that sincere and knowledgeable individuals can arrive at different interpretations. Respect diverse viewpoints while striving for responsible interpretation.
12. Consult Commentaries and Scholars: Study resources like commentaries, dictionaries, and scholarly works to gain insights from experts in biblical languages and contexts.

Remember that interpreting the Bible is a complex process, and even scholars and theologians can hold differing views on certain passages. Studying the Bible with an open and humble attitude can lead to a deeper understanding of its teachings and their relevance to life.

 

[Diamond72]

after ignoring the rest of the words in the post to which you replied with the above message.

You ignore the basic rules of bible interpretation.

Symbolism is a literary technique in which a word, character, object, or concept represents or stands for something beyond its literal meaning. The Bible is rich with symbolism, and different literary devices are employed to convey deeper meanings. Here are some of the common types of symbolism found in the Bible:

1. Metaphors: Metaphors involve comparing one thing to another without using "like" or "as." For example, when Jesus referred to Himself as the "Good Shepherd," it's a metaphor representing His care and guidance for His followers.
2. Parables: Parables are short stories or narratives that use everyday situations to convey spiritual truths. They often have hidden meanings that require interpretation. Jesus frequently used parables to teach important lessons.
3. Allegories: Allegories are extended metaphors in which characters, events, or elements represent abstract concepts or moral qualities. For instance, the Parable of the Sower is an allegory where the sower represents God's Word and the different types of soil symbolize people's receptiveness.
4. Symbols: Symbols are objects, images, or concepts that represent something beyond their literal meaning. For example, a dove is often used as a symbol of peace and the Holy Spirit in the Bible.
5. Numbers: Numbers are often used symbolically in the Bible. For example, the number seven often symbolizes completeness or perfection, as seen in the seven days of creation.
6. Types and Shadows: Some characters, events, or objects in the Old Testament are seen as types or foreshadowings of Christ or future spiritual realities. For instance, the sacrificial system in the Old Testament prefigured Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
7. Names: Names of people and places can carry symbolic meanings. For instance, the name "Israel" means "he who struggles with God," reflecting the biblical story of Jacob wrestling with an angel.
8. Colors: Colors are occasionally used symbolically in the Bible. For instance, the color white often symbolizes purity and righteousness, while red can symbolize blood and sacrifice.
9. Water and Bread: Water can symbolize cleansing, renewal, and the Holy Spirit. Bread can symbolize sustenance and the body of Christ.
10. Light and Darkness: Light often symbolizes truth, knowledge, and God's presence, while darkness symbolizes ignorance, sin, and spiritual blindness.

These are just a few examples of the many forms of symbolism found in the Bible. Symbolism adds depth and layers of meaning to the biblical text, encouraging readers to explore beyond the surface to uncover spiritual truths and insights.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I would have to write a book if I commented on everything you said. I try to keep it brief. I have a short attention span so I skip over long posts and just read the short ones. John said if he commented on everything Jesus did, it would take every book in the world.

Most excellent, but you responded to two sentences I think, or perhaps three.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The key here is not the number of churches, the key is the number of spirits.

Really, there is just one per church; seven in all. There were also seven lamps, and seven letters. Do you think that seven has a special significance? Perhaps you can point to the verses that explain the special significance.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You ignore the basic rules of bible interpretation.

Symbolism is a literary technique in which a word, character, object, or concept represents or stands for something beyond its literal meaning.

The trouble with an individual offering a symbolic interpretation is that who is there to test it, check it, and decide if it is useful or if it is not useful because it is a flight of fancy with no enduring value?

 

[bbbbbbb]

The trouble with an individual offering a symbolic interpretation is that who is there to test it, check it, and decide if it is useful or if it is not useful because it is a flight of fancy with no enduring value?

Precisely. Unfortunately, the book of the Revelation lends itself to an enormous range of interpretations. I can understand why Calvin did not write a commentary on it, although he wrote commentaries for every other book in the Bible.

 

[Lost4words]

Revelation is the most misunderstood and misinterpreted book in the Holy Bible!

 

[Diamond72]

The trouble with an individual offering a symbolic interpretation is that who is there to test it, check it, and decide if it is useful or if it is not useful because it is a flight of fancy with no enduring value?

Everyone has their own beliefs and they have to get things to match the system they use. Some are OEC or YEC and they have to get the scriptures to agree with their interpretation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Revelation is the most misunderstood and misinterpreted book in the Holy Bible!

I agree!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

There are many study bibles available for many English translations but which of them do you use and why?

I avoid NKJV, NIV, NASB bibles because none of them is available in a Catholic edition.

I use RSC-CE, NABRE, JB, NJB, RNJB, GNB-CE, LB-CE, and especially DRB, Knox, and CTS-New Catholic Bible.

Any bible you're insterested to read and study is the best sword for you. As for me, I have only one hardcover NKJV and nothing else, no other options.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Revelation is the most misunderstood and misinterpreted book in the Holy Bible!

In the Orthodox church it is the one book that we don't read at all in a church service as we didn't really accept it as canonical until the 6th century.