WHat side are you on???

[troodon]

Aha, troodon has a good post about it, and he beat me too it.
(Ill have to steal some of those links. )

:evilplottingsmilie:

 

[LadyShea]

Tom, I am pretty sure you're a troll. I am going to respond anyway for the benfit of any lurkers who may believe your nonsense

The truth is, I have not actively studied creation-evolution in a while. That is why I didn't have the source of the info on the 13 foot long human body that was found in Italy. However, I am suprised that, being such smart, intellectual people that the evolutionists always claim to be, that you guys couldn't find that article yourselves. Heck, i would expect with your intelligence level that you would have already known this to be fact and wouldn't even have to look it up. Are you just denying it because it looks really bad on your hypothesis of evolution?

I am very familiar with the story, it is a creationist myth akin to Bigfoot or Nessie or the Raelians claiming to have human clones. I wanted to know if you knew how to cite sources or could make a decent argument. You don't and you can't.

Also, as far as the measurements of the ark....Do you know how they measured the ark...inches, feet, yards??? None...The measurements that were used to measure the ark were those of body parts...for example, the forearm to the fingertips of an individual was a very popular way to measure. Now, take that forearm to the fingertips of a person in today's society and how long is it?... Maybe an average of 18 inches or so? In this case Lady, you would be correct. However, back then, people were much much larger...hence, the forearms to the fingertips could have been anywhere from 2-4 feet easily. So, take your measurements and double them...double the size of the ark and there you have it.

The Bible lists the exact dimensions of the Ark in cubits, Biblical scholars (yes, I looked at numerous sources, they all agree) have determined that a cubit is about 18 inches long and that the Ark was
450 feet long
75 feet wide
45 feet high

A Carnival Cruise Ship (Fantasy Class) is about
850 feet long
105 feet wide
27 feet high

And if all of these huge people died in a great flood, why haven't we found their fossils?

And Hovind did not take classes or earn his Doctorate from an accredited University, he took a correspondence course from a degree mill called Patriot University which is a lovely split level tract home in Colorado. So, yes, people do pay tuition to earn degrees...he simply paid, he did not have to earn it in the normal sense of the word and you know exactly what I meant...TROLL.

 

[TomInCT]

Plan 9- The reason I believe that we must choose sides is because it determines which God you believe in. If one believes in evolution, one believes in a God that is not perfect, I God that didn't know what He wanted to create right away so he took his time and through a long series of error-filled mutations and "in-betweens", created what we have today. If one believes in creation, one believes in a God that is perfect and created everything perfect from the start. Which one would you put your faith in: A God that didn't know what he wanted and created everything through tons of changes or a God that created everything perfect, knowing exactly what he wanted? If you choose the 1st one, maybe that God will decide to "change" his mind and send those who have accepted him into their hearts as their savior, to hell.


LadyShea- WHOA! Where to start!!! - I see you are becoming frustrated or angry...

1st- I am a troll huh? What does that mean? Please educate me b/c , according to you, I am a troll, even though I have no idea what that is supposed to mean...I am 6'0, so, I doubt I am a troll in the size-sense.

2nd- My nonsense huh? Why is what I believe nonsense? Because you don't agree with it?

3rd- What theory are you talking about when you say Bigfoot and Nessie had human clones? I am a creationist and don't believe this.

4th- You said, "And if all of these huge people died in a great flood, why haven't we found their fossils?"
-Did you ever hear of a fossil graveyard? Scientist have found some rather LARGE human bones in them. Also, what you are saying is that because I do not have the exact citations and referrances in regards to these giagantic human skeletons and bones, that they don't exsist. Well, I am going to take some time this weekend to do some researching on some od info I have that cite these things. I will get the info for you when I get the time to get it.

5th- So, Hovind did take courses from a "degree mill" ??? So, I suppose you believe that they just handed him his degree for an extra 20 bucks?

Lastly- You wrote, "he simply paid, he did not have to earn it in the normal sense of the word and you know exactly what I meant...TROLL." WOW, why are you so angry?

 

[Arikay]

Tom,

1) Interesting views, although the god that you believe in, is also deceptive as he apparently took quite a bit of time to plant evidence to trick people.
Im curious though, if your god created us so perfect, how come there are so many flaws in so many different animals. Could the fall create as many flaws as we see in gods "perfect" designs?

2) Im still curious if you think the barcode sites are lying and that hovind must be right.

3) Yes, I would be interested in a source for the giants claim.

 

[Vance]

Tom, you are starting with a false assumption if you think that a belief in God using evolution means a belief in a limited God. God created many processes by which His Creation came into, and comes into, being. Sure, God could have waved His had (if He has one) and it all could have appeared. No believing Christian doubts this for a second. He is omnipotent. But does that mean that he was *required* to?

God could have waved every being which He wanted to exist into being, but He created the process of sexual reproduction and birth (which is anything but a perfect method of reproduction). He created photosynthesis and dozens of other methods of creation which require no supernatural events . . . *other than the supernatural event which created the process*. Why could not God have used evolution to create if it fit His Divine plan in some way to do so?

Are you saying that God could *not* have used evolution to create?

As for the process being a bit messy and seeming to rely on "mistakes", tell that to the species which you would claim was a mistake. If they could talk, I think they would beg to differ. Every step along the way could have been part of His specific plan. Another possibility is that He set it up to run just the way it did knowing that it would take a circuitous and wandering course. Maybe this was just fine with Him. Maybe it was fine because it does nothing to take away from His ultimate purposes and plans. Maybe this process was as He intended, and so "was good" to Him.

I think we must not presume to much upon God. Remember God's admonition to Job about thinking He knew too much about the hows and whys of God.

 

[paul1287]

man and beast and everything else has evolved into something unperfect because of mans inability to be satisfied with what he's got and always trying to create something to make life easier no matter what the consiquences always going against nature-gods will thinking he's being clever when really he's foolish

 

[mrsjordanjr]

I am sure you have all heard of people saying.."Oh, I believe in evolution but I believe in God also; He's the one who started it all and gave evolution everything it needed to get going like matter, energy, etc.."

What is evolution? Evolution is basically a long long long series of screw-ups until something goes right and is then considered an evolvement (a positive change for the advancement of life and matter). Mutations are the most common theory of evolutionary changes or advancement and how everything came to be. You have probably seen many mutated cows and different animals that are born with an extra foot, leg, head, etc... These errors are obviously not "advancements" or "proof of evolution" as most evolutionists will tell you, yet they are a hinderance to the creature that it has happened to. Most creatures in the wild that have a hinderance of this nature will be killed or unable to survive due to this genetic error. Yet, the fairytale believers, sorry, I mean evolutionists will tell you that YES! this is proof of evolution!! They are dead wrong.

My point to that little story is that if someone tells you that they believe in evolution, then they do not believe in the same God we do because our God is perfect and did not create everything through trial and error... the God that they believe in who created everything through this error-filled technique called evolution is surely not our God; yet their evolutionary God is one who is not perfect and created everythig by blind chance and better belongs in their childrens' fairy tale books.

Lastly, and yes, this time it is lastly, lol, how many theories of Creation are there to us Christians? 1... How many theories of evolution are there? 33, the latest being punctuated equilibrium. What does this mean? This means that the 33rd theory that evolutionists are on have proved the 32 prior theories wrong. Now, which side would you choose; the side that has 1 theory that has never been proven false or the other side that has been proven false 32 times so far? No-brainer. (Soon this 33rd theory will be proven false..it teaches that since we have seen no evidence of evolution, punctuated equilibrium is true...It teaches that the way species have evolved and the way the varieties have come about is through a certain species giving birth to a different species....for example, a duck laying an egg and a cat hatching out of the egg, or a snake...I am not joking, this is literally what this theory teaches...Really smart, intelligent people these evolutionists are huh guys?) They need because their hypothesis makes me

I am not a very smart person, I just listen to what both sides have to say, that's all...

Tom

PS-Any thoughts??

On the contrary, God has given you wisdom that the world will never understand. I think scientists should stick with subjects they already know about, like why the sky is blue or how to make better use of our resources.

In Christ,
mrsjordanjr
www.godswillbedone.com

 

[Arikay]

in other words, scientists should stick to subjects that don't clash with your personal view of how god created.

Your right, scientists should never have shown that the earth and planets revolve around the sun, and they should never have shown the earth is round (two views supported by a literal interpretation of the bible).

 

[wblastyn]

I am sure you have all heard of people saying.."Oh, I believe in evolution but I believe in God also; He's the one who started it all and gave evolution everything it needed to get going like matter, energy, etc.."

Why couldn't he have done?

What is evolution? Evolution is basically a long long long series of screw-ups until something goes right and is then considered an evolvement (a positive change for the advancement of life and matter). Mutations are the most common theory of evolutionary changes or advancement and how everything came to be. You have probably seen many mutated cows and different animals that are born with an extra foot, leg, head, etc... These errors are obviously not "advancements" or "proof of evolution" as most evolutionists will tell you, yet they are a hinderance to the creature that it has happened to. Most creatures in the wild that have a hinderance of this nature will be killed or unable to survive due to this genetic error. Yet, the fairytale believers, sorry, I mean evolutionists will tell you that YES! this is proof of evolution!! They are dead wrong.

Evolution is about adapting to suit an enviroment so you can survive and reproduce, it has nothing to do with "screw ups", unless by screw up you mean errors in copying DNA (mutations)?

Yes, many mutations are harmful, but there are useful ones. How do you explain antibiotic resistance in bacteria, nylon eating bactera, etc.

LOL, evolution is a fairy tale? Hmm, which sounds more fairy tale like - descent with modification via natural selection, or magic trees, talking snakes, anthropromorphic gods, a boat capable of holding 2 of every animals?

My point to that little story is that if someone tells you that they believe in evolution, then they do not believe in the same God we do because our God is perfect and did not create everything through trial and error... the God that they believe in who created everything through this error-filled technique called evolution is surely not our God; yet their evolutionary God is one who is not perfect and created everythig by blind chance and better belongs in their childrens' fairy tale books.

Then your god is a liar because that is the evidence he has put in Creation. Luckily the Christians God does not lie, so your god cannot be the God of the Bible.

Lastly, and yes, this time it is lastly, lol, how many theories of Creation are there to us Christians? 1... How many theories of evolution are there? 33, the latest being punctuated equilibrium. What does this mean? This means that the 33rd theory that evolutionists are on have proved the 32 prior theories wrong. Now, which side would you choose; the side that has 1 theory that has never been proven false or the other side that has been proven false 32 times so far? No-brainer. (Soon this 33rd theory will be proven false..it teaches that since we have seen no evidence of evolution, punctuated equilibrium is true...It teaches that the way species have evolved and the way the varieties have come about is through a certain species giving birth to a different species....for example, a duck laying an egg and a cat hatching out of the egg, or a snake...I am not joking, this is literally what this theory teaches...Really smart, intelligent people these evolutionists are huh guys?) They need because their hypothesis makes me

Wrong, there are many theories of creationism, there's YEC, OEC, Appearance of Age, etc.

The last part shows you have no idea what evolution is, a duck giving birth to a cat would falsify evolution.

You're one to talk, you don't even know what evolution is so how could you possibly tell if the evolutionary scientists are intelligent or not.

 

[Vance]

You know, I get the impression that some people think of mutations as deformities of some type.

 

[Arikay]

Well, some people think the big bang is part of the theory of evolution.

Some people dont understand what they are talking about.

 

[troodon]

4th- You said, "And if all of these huge people died in a great flood, why haven't we found their fossils?"
-Did you ever hear of a fossil graveyard? Scientist have found some rather LARGE human bones in them. Also, what you are saying is that because I do not have the exact citations and referrances in regards to these giagantic human skeletons and bones, that they don't exsist.

Alright I'm sick of it. Large human bones found if fossil beds where they shouldn't be would be so well documented that every man, woman, and child in the civilized world would have heard about it within weeks of the paper's publish. Until you can provide some sort of citation (to a journal, to something a paleontologist/anthropologist said, heck, I'd take a link to a website) I'm going to assume you are either lying or the person who told you this was.

Well, I am going to take some time this weekend to do some researching on some od info I have that cite these things. I will get the info for you when I get the time to get it.

Please do; without sources we have no way of verifying your wild claims.

My point to that little story is that if someone tells you that they believe in evolution, then they do not believe in the same God

Emphasis mine.

From the rules of this website:

Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"

1) You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.

Again emphasis mine.

Please do not insinuate that theistic evolutionists are not Christians.


Edit: Misspelled 'anthropology'. Silly me

 

[Cantuar]

My point to that little story is that if someone tells you that they believe in evolution, then they do not believe in the same God we do because our God is perfect and did not create everything through trial and error

OK, so when this god of yours created a lifeform, let it go extinct a million or so years later, created another one a bit different but almost the same, let it go extinct a few hundreds of thousands of years later, created another one a bit different again, let it go extinct, created another one a bit different again, etc, etc, etc (and, purely coincidentally, of course, since evolution wasn't occurring, these forms were getting more and more like the modern ones), and he wasn't using evolution and he wasn't using trial and error, then what on earth WAS he using?

 

[Arthur Dietrich]

I'm on the side of justice

*sits back on the beanbag chair and continues to watch the fun*

obediah: As a poor, misguided Evil-utionist I have trouble reading your posts. Satan made me unable to make sense out of bad grammar and spelling.

Seriously...I skip over your posts for the soul reason that I can't read them XP Well...there is the trolling bit. I don't like trolls. Now those beanie babies are cute ^^

*returns to lurker mode*

 

[Jet Black]

On the contrary, God has given you wisdom that the world will never understand. I think scientists should stick with subjects they already know about, like why the sky is blue or how to make better use of our resources.

the sky isn't blue though

 

[Jet Black]

You aren't serious?

absolutely serious... I missed the bit about the islets of langerhans because I was laughing so much at this point.

That's *it*? I tried to read one of their papers and I wasn't at all certain that I comprehended it. Since posting on these threads, I'vefread a number of *totally* incomprehensible refererences to it, making me wonder if I understood punctuated equilibrium even less well than I had previously believed. Thank you, Jet Black.

no worries

 

[Jet Black]

And as far as Hovind being a liar and "buying" his degree.... Do you have a college degree? If so, you bought it didn't you? The only way that you didn't buy it is if you went to school for free for some reason....The argument of him "buying" his degree is not a strong one since just about everyone with a degree has purchased it...(pay tuition, take classes, pass, get degree = BOUGHT DEGREE)

err, I am doing my PhD now. I am getting paid to do it because I am doing research. everyone I know who is doing a PhD is getting paid to do it.

Have you heard about Hovind's PhD thesis? quite remarkable.

1) It doesn't have a title. most, nay, all PhD's have a title. The title he tells people his PhD has (the subject of the effects of teaching evolution on the students in our public school system) isn't actually on the PhD. Not is the content of the "thesis" anything to do with this.
2) what passes for a contents description (since there is no table of contents) says there are 16 chapters, the thesis contains 4 chapters. Even the names of the missing 12 chapters do not pertain to the alleged subject title.
3) Pages are copied word for word (50-51 is identical to 60-61) and there are exact verbatim paragraphs repeated
4) Barely any references. PhDs are full of references
5) The Thesis is "a work in progress" which Hovind has added to since. PhD theses are bound and stored in university archives for anyone to look at. once complete they are not altered.
6)Hovid claims his thesis has 250 pages. it has 101, including the dedications page.

need I go on? well if you want more, look here:

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm

 

[Pete Harcoff]

1) It doesn't have a title. most, nay, all PhD's have a title. The title he tells people his PhD has (the subject of the effects of teaching evolution on the students in our public school system) isn't actually on the PhD. Not is the content of the "thesis" anything to do with this.

Actually, Hovind has remarked that his PhD is in "Christian Education".

There's also the issue that Partriot "University" offers no courses relevant to the fields Hovind argues against.

So even if his PhD were legit, it still wouldn't lend any weight to his arguments (and in listening to Hovind, it's obvious he doesn't have the foggiest what he is talking about).

 

[Jet Black]

Actually, Hovind has remarked that his PhD is in "Christian Education".

There's also the issue that Partriot "University" offers no courses relevant to the fields Hovind argues against.

So even if his PhD were legit, it still wouldn't lend any weight to his arguments (and in listening to Hovind, it's obvious he doesn't have the foggiest what he is talking about).

indeed. I also notice how hovind often brings up the ad hominem, and forgets to mention the caveat: that a criticism of a person's status is perfectly fine if you are demonstrating that the person is not qualified to talk about whatever they are talking about... i.e. in an imaginary operating theatre;

man: "I think you should cut out that bit there"
surgeon: "be quiet, you're an economist"

is not really an ad hominem....

as you say, Hovind is not qualified to talk about most, if not all, of what he talks about.

 

[lucaspa]

My point to that little story is that if someone tells you that they believe in evolution, then they do not believe in the same God we do because our God is perfect and did not create everything through trial and error... the God that they believe in who created everything through this error-filled technique called evolution is surely not our God; yet their evolutionary God is one who is not perfect and created everythig by blind chance and better belongs in their childrens' fairy tale books.

And it was your god that got Christianity in big trouble that evolution had to bail it out of!

Put simply, if your god (notice the small g) created everything directly and is directly responsible for all the designs in biological organisms, then you god is stupid, sadistic, and suffering from Alzheimer's! Since God (capital G, the real one) is not like that, it means that God didn't create the way you say.

The problem is that you close your eyes and simply don't see. There are simply too many really nasty and dumb designs in nature.

1. The digger wasp. It lays its eggs in living grasshoppers. Now, the wasp is amazing in that it can detect a grasshopper in flight, calculate an intercept course, make rendevous, inject the egg, and get away without the grasshopper knowing it. Great design! The problem comes when the baby wasps eat the living grasshopper out from the inside! Just like the movie Alien. Gross. Sadistic. Cruel. All that great design to inflict pain and suffering on the grasshopper.

2. Rabbits. Rabbits eat grass and other plants with a lot of cellulose. BUT, rabbits don't produce the enzyme cellulase to break that cellulose down for food. Instead, cellulase is produced by bacteria that live in the large intestine of the rabbit. Clever, you might say. Until you realize that the food and the bacteria are secreted in feces of the rabbit. So, to survive, the rabbit is forced to eat its own feces! Nasty. Sadistic. Nice job your god did on those nice little bunnies, isn't it?

3. Thumbs. The human and primate thumbs are a great design. Nearly perfect for grasping. Now, the same god who did this great design for primates also designed the panda, which also has to grasp its food -- bamboo. Did your god use this great design it already had made? NOPE! It designed an elongated wrist bone for the poor panda to use. What, did the panda **** god off that day somehow? Or did your god simply forget how to design a thumb? It's even worse since the panda has the thumb, but it is fused to the other bones of the forepaw!

4. The Bible. Your god supposedly directly wrote the Bible. Right? Well, you god spends Genesis 1:1-2:3 telling us it took 6 days to create the heavens and the earth. Then in Genesis 2:4b your god turns around and tells us it took one day. "Beyom" = within one day. Your god has a bad case of Alzheimer's.

Since the real God is neither cruel, stupid, nor suffers from Alzheimer's, God used the secondary process of evolution by natural selection to design all living organisms and so isn't directly responsible for the designs I named above and the thousands of other examples we can go into.

BTW, Darwinian selection (of which natural selection is one manifestation) is the only way to get design. Even if your god had actually designed each species, it would have done so. Except all the trials and errors would have been done in its mind.

Lastly, and yes, this time it is lastly, lol, how many theories of Creation are there to us Christians? 1...

Let's see. YEC. OEC. Progressive creation. Intelligent Design. The two creation stories. Schroeder's theory. Three versions of Gap Theory. That's 10 so far.

How many theories of evolution are there? 33, the latest being punctuated equilibrium.

33? Care to name them? BTW, PE is not another theory of evolution.

"Punctuated equilibrium is neither a creationist idea nor even a non-Darwinian evolutionary theory about sudden change that produces a new species all at once in a single generation. Punctuated equilibrium accepts the conventional idea that new species form over hundreds or thousands of generations and through an extensive series of intermediate changes. But geological time is so long that even a few thousand years may appear as a mere "moment" relative to the several million years of existence for most species. Thus, rates of evolution vary enourmously and new species may appear to arise "suddenly" in geological time, even though the time involved woudl seem long, and the change very slow, when compared to a human lifetime." Stephen J. Gould, Science and Creationism, A view from the National Academy of Sciences, 2nd edition, pg 29, 1999. www.nap.edu

What do you wanna bet that you got the rest of evolution just as badly wrong as you did this?