What should you do with your millions?

[o_mlly]

That is not what it says in the gospel!

Matthew 19:24 is explicit. Interestingly Jesus is apparently this lesson - as if it met the same resistance at the time!

Perhaps there is a pronouncement elsewhere in the New Testament to help with this?

18 ... And Jesus said, ... Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
21 ... If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor ...
22 But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions.

The young man loved his great possessions more than he loved his poor neighbor.

 

[Whyayeman]

From the source cited above:

... an alternative route still allowed access into the city: a small passageway called the eye of the needle. This small opening of the wall would allow late-night travelers a cramped but open way into Jerusalem.

If there was such a thing - and the source given for this is actually the Gospel, I suspect - it does not make any difference. Camels could not pass. The source is actually a sermon, which also urges poverty:

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor ...

This really does not alter the case.

 

[Moral Orel]

From the source cited above:

... an alternative route still allowed access into the city: a small passageway called the eye of the needle. This small opening of the wall would allow late-night travelers a cramped but open way into Jerusalem.

If there was such a thing - and the source given for this is actually the Gospel, I suspect - it does not make any difference. Camels could not pass. The source is actually a sermon, which also urges poverty:

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor ...

This really does not alter the case.

To further your argument, it reads:

However, in order to fit through this small passageway, he must prepare his camels for a tight squeeze. He must unpack their belongings, have them lower their heads, and lead them through the eye...

...While the merchant must only undue the straps holding the goods onto the camel and lead the camel through the passage, for humans, these straps prove harder to untie, and to an almost unswerving extent, we resist lowering our heads; we don’t trust that we will safely make it through the passage and into the city. We only trust ourselves.

Both in Jesus’ time and today, this teaching proves correct. We do not want to strip ourselves of goods and riches...​

So it still holds that a rich man has to stop being rich to enter Heaven under this interpretation, as you pointed out in a previous post.

 

[Nithavela]

The Gospels claim: 'It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'

According to number of american millionaires at DuckDuckGo there are more than 15 million American millionaire households.

I dare say some of them post here. Are they condemned to be denied entry to the 'Kingdom of God'? Or is there another route to Heaven for the rich?

I've been told by Christians on this forum that the "eye of a needle" was actually a small gate in Jerusalems Wall, which wasn't that hard for camels to get through once it's unloaded of its carried goods.

 

[Nithavela]

From the source cited above:

... an alternative route still allowed access into the city: a small passageway called the eye of the needle. This small opening of the wall would allow late-night travelers a cramped but open way into Jerusalem.

If there was such a thing - and the source given for this is actually the Gospel, I suspect - it does not make any difference. Camels could not pass. The source is actually a sermon, which also urges poverty:

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor ...

This really does not alter the case.

The source of the "gate interpretation" is most likely the writing of Anselm of Canterbury from the 11th century or the later work of Thomas Aquinas from the 13th century referencing that supposed writing by Anselm (whose writing has been lost).

 

[o_mlly]

So it still holds that a rich man has to stop being rich to enter Heaven under this interpretation, as you pointed out in a previous post.

Who is "rich"? "Rich" may mean possessing a surplus of goods, i.e., possessing more than necessary to subsist. Likewise, if "poor" means not possessing enough to subsist then one who has a surplus in justice (a human virtue) is obligated to give to those who do not have enough.

One is no longer "rich" if their disposition towards their surplus is to give it to whomever crosses their path that does not have enough.

One is never obligated to give from their substance; doing so would be an act of charity (a theological virtue).

 

[Whyayeman]

The source of the "gate interpretation" is most likely the writing of Anselm of Canterbury from the 11th century or the later work of Thomas Aquinas from the 13th century referencing that supposed writing by Anselm (whose writing has been lost).

The 'Eye of a Needle' is a supposition; there is no sign anywhere so far as I know to substantiate that there was in fact any gate into Jerusalem (or anywhere else for that matter) described that way. To a non-Christian like me it sounds a bit like a search for a cop-out.

It is a lot more comfortable to discuss Biblical interpretations than to face the actual words of the Gospel on the entry of the rich into 'the Kingdom of Heaven'. The question so far has not been answered:

What should you do with your millions?

 

[Nithavela]

The 'Eye of a Needle' is a supposition; there is no sign anywhere so far as I know to substantiate that there was in fact any gate into Jerusalem (or anywhere else for that matter) described that way. To a non-Christian like me it sounds a bit like a search for a cop-out.

It is a lot more comfortable to discuss Biblical interpretations than to face the actual words of the Gospel on the entry of the rich into 'the Kingdom of Heaven'. The question so far has not been answered:

What should you do with your millions?

I think that giving all your belongings to charity and living a live akin to Dobri Dobrev would be fitting. But what do I know, I'm only a discordian?

 

[FireDragon76]

I think Jesus intended his followers to live without a sense of possessing anything. Of course, if one lacks that idea of possessing things, they will invariably have little. I think Jesus would be shocked at the wealth of Christians throughout history. But American Christianity is simply gross. Its extravagance is revealed in the thousands of churches being maintained for a handful of people. All that property maintenance is a money suck and does no good except to comfort a few (who already have hope). Jesus would not be impressed, I'm sure

It doesn't even produce good architecture; the money isn't being spent on buildings and properties, it's being spent on Learjets and mansions for "pastors". In some parts of the country, becoming a pastor is the easiest way to accumulate easy money over time. It's not surprising that psychopaths and narcissists are over-represented in clergy in the US.

 

[Whyayeman]

It doesn't even produce good architecture; the money isn't being spent on buildings and properties, it's being spent on Learjets and mansions for "pastors". In some parts of the country, becoming a pastor is the easiest way to accumulate easy money over time. It's not surprising that psychopaths and narcissists are over-represented in clergy in the US.

I am sometimes struck by how easy it seems for American preachers to make (apparently) millions, fly by private jet, mount expensive money-raising appeals and generally live the lives of the super-rich. I am left wondering if they have got as far through their Bibles to have reached Matthew Ch19.

They certainly don't seem troubled by it.

 

[Astrid]

I am sometimes struck by how easy it seems for American preachers to make (apparently) millions, fly by private jet, mount expensive money-raising appeals and generally live the lives of the super-rich. I am left wondering if they have got as far through their Bibles to have reached Matthew Ch19.

They certainly don't seem troubled by it.

To an atheist it all looks like a scam

 

[pgp_protector]

Original site no longer works, but Wayback machine still has it.
If you're making minimum wage (about 15K a year in the US)
You're still in the top 10% global income.
Global Rich List

 

[Astrid]

Original site no longer works, but Wayback machine still has it.
If you're making minimum wage (about 15K a year in the US)
You're still in the top 10% global income.
Global Rich List

Does that take cost of living into account

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Manage the money wisely first so that you don't fritter it away. Take care of your family, the Church and those closest to you second. Third make wise investments. Finally set aside a certain amount for uplifting others yourself, do not give it to a charity organization you are not absolutely sure will use that money for an intended purpose.

 

[Whyayeman]

Manage the money wisely first so that you don't fritter it away. Take care of your family, the Church and those closest to you second. Third make wise investments. Finally set aside a certain amount for uplifting others yourself, do not give it to a charity organization you are not absolutely sure will use that money for an intended purpose.

Generally good advice for anybody. But for people who take the Gospel as their guide it is not enough to get them that place in the Kingdom of Heaven.

According to St Matthew the rich man had to give away 'all he had' if he wished to go to Heaven. Not just 'a certain amount'. Everything. There is no room for negotiation there, no wiggle room. (And not much enthusiasm for it on this thread!)

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Generally good advice for anybody. But for people who take the Gospel as their guide it is not enough to get them that place in the Kingdom of Heaven.

According to St Matthew the rich man had to give away 'all he had' if he wished to go to Heaven. Not just 'a certain amount'. Everything. There is no room for negotiation there, no wiggle room. (And not much enthusiasm for it on this thread!)

There have been rich Christians in history, even in the New Testament. It's not wise to listen to one's enemy when they give you deliberately harmful advice that can only favour them. Nice try though.

All this means is that rich Christians aren't perfect and that it's harder to avoid temptation for them. Not that there can't be rich Christians. They simply have a duty toward their family and the faith that a rich nonbeliever doesn't.

 

[Whyayeman]

There have been rich Christians in history, even in the New Testament. It's not wise to listen to one's enemy when they give you deliberately harmful advice that can only favour them. Nice try though.

All this means is that rich Christians aren't perfect and that it's harder to avoid temptation for them. Not that there can't be rich Christians. They simply have a duty toward their family and the faith that a rich nonbeliever doesn't.

I am not sure who the enemy is here. I do not agree that the words of St Matthew's Gospel can be ignored. Those verses in St Matthew's Gospel are explicit. It is inconvenient, I know, but there is no room for compromise: to get into Heaven you must give away all that you possess.

Like many Christians, I do not agree with this, but then I don't believe in any kind of after-life, Heavenly or Hellish.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am not sure who the enemy is here. I do not agree that the words of St Matthew's Gospel can be ignored. Those verses in St Matthew's Gospel are explicit. It is inconvenient, I know, but there is no room for compromise: to get into Heaven you must give away all that you possess.

Like many Christians, I do not agree with this, but then I don't believe in any kind of after-life, Heavenly or Hellish.

You don't agree with Christ at all, nor can you even begin to understand it. Christianity is not an Egalitarian religion and there is room for those who are well off and will serve God. Look at Abraham, the father of our faith or Lydia who lent her home and resources for the upbuilding of the Church.

I know you don't like the idea of Christians having wealth, but we are allowed to. We will just be held to account for how we used it our lives. So yeah, there's no compromising with God here. Only you presuming to think you understand God, which as an unbeliever you don't.

Also, you are teh enemy if you recommend evil advice to Christians and pretend to speak for Christ.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am not sure who the enemy is here. I do not agree that the words of St Matthew's Gospel can be ignored. Those verses in St Matthew's Gospel are explicit. It is inconvenient, I know, but there is no room for compromise: to get into Heaven you must give away all that you possess.

Like many Christians, I do not agree with this, but then I don't believe in any kind of after-life, Heavenly or Hellish.

Jesus' words in Matthew are to a particular rich man, and it's likely the wider context in which the man was situated have something to do with why Jesus instructed him to sell his goods (note he did not say absolutely all his money and goods; Semitic expressions do not contain this type of detail when worded in this manner) and give it to the poor. Jesus depended on wealthy patrons and disciples for his ministry.

 

[FireDragon76]

To further your argument, it reads:

However, in order to fit through this small passageway, he must prepare his camels for a tight squeeze. He must unpack their belongings, have them lower their heads, and lead them through the eye...

...While the merchant must only undue the straps holding the goods onto the camel and lead the camel through the passage, for humans, these straps prove harder to untie, and to an almost unswerving extent, we resist lowering our heads; we don’t trust that we will safely make it through the passage and into the city. We only trust ourselves.

Both in Jesus’ time and today, this teaching proves correct. We do not want to strip ourselves of goods and riches...​

So it still holds that a rich man has to stop being rich to enter Heaven under this interpretation, as you pointed out in a previous post.

Christians should live generously and not miserly but they aren't required to be penniless and destitute, living like a beggar or vagabond.

The details of the Christian life are often about ones perceived calling or vocation, which would vary from individual to individual. Most of Jesus' teachings are about values and virtues he envisions for his community, not specific commandments or deontology.