What scriptures support praying to the saints?

iLogos · Feb 4, 2012

Incariol said:
Umm, we do. Why would you ever assume we don't?

Catholics pray to Saints and Angels to intercede for them on their behalf, is that not true?

My question was W H Y ?

Will we get better results that way verses going straight thru Jesus?

I mean really when you think about it, why do so many pray to angels and saints?

Do you think God gives them greater ear then to Jesus and if not then why not just pray directly to our Father or Lord Jesus Christ?

That's what I don't get and has not been answered yet.

The example of some of us ask other (living) people to pray for us or include us in their prayers, so there for why not include the angels and saints is flawed argument.

For one thing never mind the fact that not even one scripture verse has been supplied yet in this thread to support this. It fails on common sense as well.

When some one asks others to pray for them or include them in their prayers,

THEY ARE NOT PRAYING TO THEM!

You can spin it all you want, but they are not praying to those people they ask

I have seen, and heard Catholics pray to saints and angels, and they are PRAYING to them!

In fact on a major Catholic radio station I heard some Priest tell listeners he has a list of all the saints that they can pray to for specific reasons, for example, a medical prayer should go to St Luke, he went on and on thru a list of about 20 such examples!

I realize many Catholics will try to spin this in to not prayer but asking for intercession, I'm asking why we need any more intercession from the angels and saints? Are they not already praying for all of us? Does God not already know all of our needs before we ask? Do we not already have a intermediate to the Father who is Jesus Christ our Lord and Savor?

Yet we still find the need to pray to angels and saints.

I'm sorry, I just don't get the logic and reason behind the spins I've heard so far

Incariol · Feb 4, 2012

iLogos said:
Catholics pray to Saints and Angels to intercede for them on their behalf, is that not true?

My question was W H Y ?

Because we C A N...

iLogos said:
Will we get better results that way verses going straight thru Jesus?

There you go again, with your bizarre assumption that those who ask for the intercession of the saints don't pray to Jesus. It makes no sense.

iLogos said:
I mean really when you think about it, why do so many pray to angels and saints?

For the same reason I pray to my Christian brothers and sisters to pray for me.

iLogos said:
Do you think God gives them greater ear then to Jesus and if not then why not just pray directly to our Father or Lord Jesus Christ?

For Heaven's sake, read my lips. WE DO PRAY TO GOD.

iLogos said:
That's what I don't get and has not been answered yet.

Probably because your question is based on an imaginary situation that doesn't exist.

iLogos said:
The example of some of us ask other (living) people to pray for us or include us in their prayers, so there for why not include the angels and saints is flawed argument.

Praying to the saints is asking other living people to pray for us.

iLogos said:
For one thing never mind the fact that not even one scripture verse has been supplied yet in this thread to support this. It fails on common sense as well.

In that case, you should lobby to get prayer requests subforum shut down.

iLogos said:
When some one asks others to pray for them or include them in their prayers,

THEY ARE NOT PRAYING TO THEM!

Oh, you don't know what "pray" means. How sad.

iLogos said:
You can spin it all you want, but they are not praying to those people they ask

I recommend looking up "pray" in a dictionary. You're rather wrong.

iLogos said:
I have seen, and heard Catholics pray to saints and angels, and they are PRAYING to them!

"I have seen, and heard Catholics pray to saints and angels, and they are making requests of them!"

Cool. What about it?

iLogos said:
In fact on a major Catholic radio station I heard some Priest tell listeners he has a list of all the saints that they can pray to for specific reasons, for example, a medical prayer should go to St Luke, he went on and on thru a list of about 20 such examples!

And?

iLogos said:
I realize many Catholics will try to spin this in to not prayer but asking for intercession,

Because that is what they are doing, perhaps?

iLogos said:
I'm asking why we need any more intercession from the angels and saints? Are they not already praying for all of us? Does God not already know all of our needs before we ask? Do we not already have a intermediate to the Father who is Jesus Christ our Lord and Savor?

Not everyone is a Christian minimalist, I guess. Some of us don't try and pare our religion down to its emaciated, bare-bones essentials; the absolute minimum we can do and still scrape by.

iLogos said:
Yet we still find the need to pray to angels and saints.

It's not the "need", have you ever actually asked a priest about this?

iLogos said:
I'm sorry, I just don't get the logic and reason behind the spins I've heard so far

Probably because you're using a wrong definition of prayer, assume that Christians "need" to pray to the saints, that Christians who pray to the saints don't pray to God etc.

katherine2001 · Feb 5, 2012

iLogos said:
I've noticed a large absence of actual scripture reference to support praying to angels and saints and a ample amount of scripture against it. I understand that this practice d view is based entirely on tradition of men. My question is this, what is the purpose of praying to angels and saints? Do you think if God does not listen to us or Jesus on our behalf, He would then listen to angels and saints on our behalf?

How about quoting all the ample Scriptures against asking intercession from our brothers and sisters in Christ who are alive in Christ but no longer walking this earth and the angels. I didn't notice even one Scripture reference in the above post.

Incariol · Feb 5, 2012

Litany of the Saints - YouTube

Feast of All Saints Day - Thrice Happy are ye, all ye Saints and elect of God (Beati Estis) - YouTube

iLogos · Feb 5, 2012

katherine2001 said:
How about quoting all the ample Scriptures against asking intercession from our brothers and sisters in Christ who are alive in Christ but no longer walking this earth and the angels. I didn't notice even one Scripture reference in the above post.

Well these come to mind right away..

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger.

jackmt · Feb 5, 2012

Necromancing was punishable by stoning. Has God contrdicted His own Law? God forbid.

DrBubbaLove · Feb 5, 2012

nec·ro·man·cy noun \ˈne-krə-ˌman(t)-sē\

Definition of NECROMANCY

1
: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

How is asking someone to pray to God on our behalf is equivalent to asking that person to MAGICALLY reveal the future or influence future events?

Am not sure where a person would get the idea that praying to God involves magic, but if these are the types of prayers one practices and are trying to apply such prayers to Catholics I can assure you it is neither what Catholics nor is it right for anyone to be making that kind of prayer to God.

So I would suggest anyone doing that stop, whether they are Catholic or not.

iLogos · Feb 5, 2012

DrBubbaLove said:
nec·ro·man·cy noun \ˈne-krə-ˌman(t)-sē\

Definition of NECROMANCY

1
: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

How is asking someone to pray to God on our behalf is equivalent to asking that person to MAGICALLY reveal the future or influence future events?

Am not sure where a person would get the idea that praying to God involves magic, but if these are the types of prayers one practices and are trying to apply such prayers to Catholics I can assure you it is neither what Catholics nor is it right for anyone to be making that kind of prayer to God.

So I would suggest anyone doing that stop, whether they are Catholic or not.

your definition ..

or influencing the course of events

I agree they should stop

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

Yes, Christ is the sole mediator - the Greek actually means covenant/contract maker - and another to receive agree to the covenant.

But this does not preclude that Christians may pray to God for each other - in fact Paul does it and also asks others to pray for him.

The terminology can be confusing -- Greek has many words that can be translated as "pray", and they don't all mean "worship", but typically mean "ask" with various degrees of intensity.

So, to "translate", we ask others to pray for us - as all Christians are alive in Christ.

DrBubbaLove · Feb 5, 2012

Actually that is someone called Mr Webster's definition. Heard he is a fair source. And note the reference of the word MAGICAL in the sentence.

Glad to here I misunderstood that anyone here would think it ok to see ANY prayer request as MAGICAL and people pledging they never do that. For a minute there I looked at something someone said as transposing MAGICAL requests they direct toward God as something Catholics would do.

iLogos · Feb 5, 2012

Thekla said:
Yes, Christ is the sole mediator - the Greek actually means covenant/contract maker - and another to receive agree to the covenant.

But this does not preclude that Christians may pray to God for each other - in fact Paul does it and also asks others to pray for him.

The terminology can be confusing -- Greek has many words that can be translated as "pray", and they don't all mean "worship", but typically mean "ask" with various degrees of intensity.

So, to "translate", we ask others to pray for us - as all Christians are alive in Christ.

(Matt 6:5 [NKJV])
“And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

G4336 προσεύχομαι proseuchomai (pros-yoo'-khom-ai) v.
1. to pray to God, i.e. supplicate, worship

I am referring to this definition and work.

I am not aware of any others perhaps you could share which Greek words uses other meanings translated pray and what verse so we may all learn more.

DrBubbaLove · Feb 5, 2012

Definition of PRAY

transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
See pray defined for English-language learners »
See pray defined for kids »

A lot there but I see nothing that allows for any MAGIC or conjuring (see definition necromancy)

iLogos · Feb 5, 2012

DrBubbaLove said:
Definition of PRAY

transitive verb
1: entreat, implore often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
See pray defined for English-language learners »
See pray defined for kids »

A lot there but I see nothing that allows for any MAGIC or conjuring (see definition necromancy)

You seem to be stuck on necromancy for some reason in junction with prayer.

I hope at least you understand what prayer means.

We pray to God, not angels or Saints. It will be GOD (not angels or saints) who responds.

We ask living friends and relatives to pray for us to GOD (not angels or saints) on our behalf. You can't ask angels or saints for any thing, only God.

But if you feel the need to pray to dead people and angels, go ahead. Just don't get all excited when some find that odd and unbiblical

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

iLogos said:
(Matt 6:5 [NKJV])
And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

G4336 προσεύχομαι proseuchomai (pros-yoo'-khom-ai) v.
1. to pray to God, i.e. supplicate, worship

I am referring to this definition and work.

I am not aware of any others perhaps you could share which Greek words uses other meanings translated pray and what verse so we may all learn more.

This should help:

It is important to remember, in undertaking a study of the uses of pray/prayer in the New Testament, that in the Elizabethan English of the KJV, pray did not necessarily have anything whatever to do with God, but I pray thee was merely a polite way of saying please. This is seen in fully half of the appearances of deomai, nine of which were traditionally translated beseech, primarily in Luke and Acts, and erotao, in which 23x the translators used ask (as in, to ask a question, make a request, or issue an invitation), beseech 14x, desire 6x, and entreat once, with the same sense in six of the 14 times where it is rendered pray. Consequently, we are dealing here with a concept in which context is critically important.

The actual lexical definitions of the five verbs and four nouns in this group are not so very different from one another. Classically, deomai was used by Homer as to be in need or want, by Plato and Herodotus as to beg a thing from a person, and by Plutarch and Thucydides as to beg a favor.

Erotao is listed as to ask a question, to beg, or to entreat, to make a request of a person. Euchomai did refer to prayer as commonly understood, but also as an unrealizable wish, to long for, to vow, or to promise. Parakaleo, to summon friends for help, to invite, to exhort, to encourage, is dealt with in W.S.#53, The Spirit. Only proseuchomai refers exclusively to the prayer of worship.
Among the nouns, only deesis, entreaty, petition,and proseuche, a prayer, or place of prayer are commonly used. Enteuxis, conversation, petition, intercession, appears only once (I Tim.4:5), and euche, a prayer, vow, wish, or aspiration, is rendered once prayer (Jas.5:15), and twice vow (Ac.18:18 and 21:23).Word Study #91 — Pray/Prayer « The Pioneers’ New Testament

Its a sketch, and you can continue reading there, but the usage of the terminology is to some extent pretty fluid.

In The Orthodox Church, we often use the term paraklisis, and say ____, pray to (entreat) God for us/on our behalf.

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

iLogos said:
You seem to be stuck on necromancy for some reason in junction with prayer.

I hope at least you understand what prayer means.

We pray to God, not angels or Saints. It will be GOD (not angels or saints) who responds.

We ask living friends and relatives to pray for us to GOD (not angels or saints) on our behalf. You can't ask angels or saints for any thing, only God.

But if you feel the need to pray to dead people and angels, go ahead. Just don't get all excited when some find that odd and unbiblical

Necromancy is not the same -- it has a different aim/purpose, and of course does not acknowledge God !

The term itself comes from "nekros", which refers to a dead body.

The Scriptures teach that the spirit of the person lives in/with Christ, and that the body will be resurrected at the end of time.

So asking a person who is a brother/sister in/with Christ is an acknowledgement of indeed the victory and promise of Christ (and see Revelation; those with/in Him are alive).

Note also that the promise that Christ gives of the Holy Spirit (John 14:17) states that the Holy Spirit will be among you (plural) referring not to individuals but to the body of Christ; the body of Christ are all in/with Him. Thus the Holy Spirit binds and is among all in Him, and those in the body include those who are no longer walking the earth.

iLogos · Feb 5, 2012

Thekla said:
This should help:

Its a sketch, and you can continue reading there, but the usage of the terminology is to some extent pretty fluid.

In The Orthodox Church, we often use the term paraklisis, and say ____, pray to (entreat) God for us/on our behalf.

That's why Greek interleaner and Strongs comes in handy to see which Greek word was used

And as I pointed out, the Greek word in question ..

(Matt 6:5 [NKJV])
And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.

G4336 προσεύχομαι proseuchomai (pros-yoo'-khom-ai) v.
1. to pray to God, i.e. supplicate, worship

Is NOT used for "beg" or "please" as indicated in your word study.

That there may be more then one word translated to prayer is agreed, and the context determines which word.

προσεύχομαι is never used to "beg" or "please" and always in usage to God in worship.

Are we in agreement so far?

As for the latter part of the argument, rather then play word games with the word "pray" which clearly we as Christians refer to in the form of worship, lets use your definition of pray which is broader and never used in junction with worship, but forsake of argument we will consider it's usage.

Why would any one "ask" or "beg" a angel or dead saint to "Pray" for them on their behalf, when all we have to do is pray to god ourselves!

It is NOT the same as asking a living person to include us in their prayers, we have no biblical support to indicate we can ask angels or dead people any thing. Clearly no scripture support has been provided yet for that in this thread. Instead we get the response, "show me where it's prohibited. And when we do, silence is followed or the subject is changed as if fallen on deaf ears.

I get why some pray to dead people and angels. I don't get why some feel that is needed, required, helpful, or most importantly, biblical. We have examples of Paul and others asking to be included in prayers with the living, not one single verse where any one prayed to a dead person or angel. Don't you find that odd at all?

DrBubbaLove · Feb 5, 2012

iLogos said:
You seem to be stuck on necromancy for some reason in junction with prayer.

I hope at least you understand what prayer means.

We pray to God, not angels or Saints. It will be GOD (not angels or saints) who responds.

We ask living friends and relatives to pray for us to GOD (not angels or saints) on our behalf. You can't ask angels or saints for any thing, only God.

But if you feel the need to pray to dead people and angels, go ahead. Just don't get all excited when some find that odd and unbiblical

Am actually not the one that brought it up or making the obvious connection between the intercession of Heavenly Hosts, including angels and saints, with necromancy.

Clearly necromancy is wrong but I think one needs to understand what that means before equating it to our prayers. Obviously some here do have a problem doing that and these comments would be directed at them.

We absolutely get a lot of Christians do not do it and think it wrong for us to do so. Get that, and ok with it. My point is if one is going to claim it is wrong then comparing it to verses warning against using mediums to magically summoning the dead to do our bidding is not the proof one should be attempting to use because there is no comparison there with necromancy to what intercessory prayer represents.

Whether I ask God, my neighbor, an angel or a Saint to pray for me it is still God who answers those prayers. Regardless of our use of an interceder, whether an angel, Saint or neighbor, it would still be incorrect to associate any response to any other than God. At most one could conclude a particular individual's prayers are highly effectual, which merely means and for whatever reason, they seem to have our Lord's ear.

And that knowledge, that particular being' prayers are highly effectual is no different than learning by witness or testimony of a person's rep here for effectual prayer. Some people known for this attract large followings, and as far as that goes, am ok with it. Could it be abused?

Am sure it has been but it does not follow all such examples are abuse? I do not think so. Through the ages we have testimony of some mighty prayer warriors walking among us. Asking such a person to pray for me is not wrong and we see the same with Saints and angels. Nothing more dark or sinister than that.

Thekla · Feb 5, 2012

iLogos said:
That's why Greek interleaner and Strongs comes in handy to see which Greek word was used

And as I pointed out, the Greek word in question ..

Is NOT used for "beg" or "please" as indicated in your word study.

That there may be more then one word translated to prayer is agreed, and the context determines which word.

προσεύχομαι is never used to "beg" or "please" and always in usage to God in worship.

Are we in agreement so far?

As for the latter part of the argument, rather then play word games with the word "pray" which clearly we as Christians refer to in the form of worship, lets use your definition of pray which is broader and never used in junction with worship, but forsake of argument we will consider it's usage.

Not all Christians are English speakers - for example, in my Church we use a lot of Greek as well as English. So the use of terminology is much more nuanced. The usage I mentioned in my post is the terminology we use !

Further, usage to some extent governs definition (that is why dictionaries are constantly being updated by usage panels). SO it is not playing "word games" to try and explain that there are different understandings of the same terminology.

So suffice to say, I have never met a Christian who asks a Saint or saint for their prayers who thinks of this as worshipping the saint or Saint !

Why would any one "ask" or "beg" a angel or dead saint to "Pray" for them on their behalf, when all we have to do is pray to god ourselves!

As I described, the Holy Spirit is promised by Christ to the body; and that includes all Christians ! We do not distinguish by flesh, but by Christ. Those with Christ are not dead. It seems we differ in our belief on this matter. I believe that Christ conquered death, and agree with Paul: to be absent from the body is to be present with God. I do not believe that to be with God is to be dead.

It is NOT the same as asking a living person to include us in their prayers, we have no biblical support to indicate we can ask angels or dead people any thing. Clearly no scripture support has been provided yet for that in this thread. Instead we get the response, "show me where it's prohibited. And when we do, silence is followed or the subject is changed as if fallen on deaf ears.

You are of course welcome to your belief; I stick with the teachings of Scripture and the promise and victory of Christ: those with/in Him are not dead. If you do not believe this, what am I to say ?

I get why some pray to dead people and angels. I don't get why some feel that is needed, required, helpful, or most importantly, biblical. We have examples of Paul and others asking to be included in prayers with the living, not one single verse where any one prayed to a dead person or angel. Don't you find that odd at all?

You seem to be fixated on the physical life, yet the spiritual truth of Christ, His victory, His promises are real - more real than the physical creation, which will pass away.

Incariol · Feb 5, 2012

jackmt said:
Necromancing was punishable by stoning. Has God contrdicted His own Law? God forbid.

If we see anyone doing necromancy, we'll be sure to reprimand them...

iLogos · Feb 5, 2012

So in conclusion the word "pray" means some thing different to some believers regardless what the actual Greek words or meanings are. we are free to interchange this word to mean whatever we want whenever we want. Scripture is irrelevant as this does not need to be "biblical" except when it supports our views, when it opposes our views, we simply disregard it or ignore it.

As for talking to dead people and angels, so what, we like to do it.

I think I understand now!

What scriptures support praying to the saints?

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