What scriptures support praying to the saints?

Thekla · Feb 18, 2012

jackmt said:
In this passage is is as explicit as can be without being explicit. While the child was alive, David prayed for him. As soon as the child died, his prayers no longer had any efficacy.

Where in Scripture does it specifically advocate prayers to or for the dead?

And what was the purpose of his prayer for the child ?

There's your answer; to pray for those reposed in Christ is not the same purpose, but an expression of love which exceeds what passes away - the flesh.

The Scripture advocates that we pray for each other.

Why do you deny Christ's word by calling those alive in Him "dead" ?

Thekla · Feb 18, 2012

Fireinfolding said:
Even Jesus speaks of their traditions and the apostles of Jewish fables and to give no heed to them.

Jesus didnt teach it and the apostles didnt teach it and I regard it as another doctrine.

We disagree Thelks

Yes, we do disagree - that's okay.

But I don't agree that the promises of Christ recorded in the Holy Scripture, nor the teachings of Paul can be called "Jewish myths". Myths are an entire system of understanding. Christ clearly teaches that those who believe in Him are alive, and Paul clearly teaches that His body is one in Him.

jackmt · Feb 18, 2012

Thekla said:
And what was the purpose of his prayer for the child ?

There's your answer; to pray for those reposed in Christ is not the same purpose, but an expression of love which exceeds what passes away - the flesh.

The Scripture advocates that we pray for each other.

Why do you deny Christ's word by calling those alive in Him "dead" ?

II Sam.12:18 The child died. The child is dead. Those who are alive in Christ but whose bodies are rotting in the grave are dead. The dead in Christ shall rise. (I Thes.4:16)

Word games will help you persist in your pet doctrine, but they will not aid in discovering truth.

Standing Up · Feb 18, 2012

Fireinfolding said:
Even Jesus speaks of their traditions and the apostles of Jewish fables and to give no heed to them.

Jesus didnt teach it and the apostles didnt teach it and I regard it as another doctrine.

We disagree Thelks

Ahh, good point and tie together.

We know there is no instruction in Christianity for this practice, even when the apostles had two perfect first examples in James and Stephen by which to teach it.

We know the practice does derive from Judaistic practice.

We know Paul warned against Jewish fable.

Thekla · Feb 18, 2012

jackmt said:
II Sam.12:18 The child died. The child is dead. Those who are alive in Christ but whose bodies are rotting in the grave are dead. The dead in Christ shall rise. (I Thes.4:16)

Word games will help you persist in your pet doctrine, but they will not aid in discovering truth.

It's not a "word twist" in Greek (though it seems you think in English it is).

The Thess. passage uses the term "nekros", which means "corpse".

"Those that seek the Lord shall praise Him; their hearts shall live for ever."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

mmksparbud · Feb 20, 2012

Thekla said:
And what was the purpose of his prayer for the child ?

There's your answer; to pray for those reposed in Christ is not the same purpose, but an expression of love which exceeds what passes away - the flesh.

The Scripture advocates that we pray for each other.

Why do you deny Christ's word by calling those alive in Him "dead" ?

Maybe because Jesus used the term Himself--as when He finally said, Lazarus is dead.
Matt 8:22..."Let the dead bury the dead."
Matt 10:8..Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead..."

He used the word in describing His own future Matt 17:9 Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead.
Matt 22:32 God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
There are many more--When Christ resurrected Lazarus, where was Lazarus? If in heaven, why bring him back to earth, leave him in heaven. If in hell, why did He tarry for 4 days--keeping him suffering for so long. The children He raised from the dead--they were young, not considered old enough to be accountable yet, so they would have gone to heaven, so why bring them back to this miserable life again? Christ called the dead 2 things--dead, or sleeping. If they're sleeping, they can't hear you, neither if they are dead.

Thekla · Feb 20, 2012

mmksparbud said:
Maybe because Jesus used the term Himself--as when He finally said, Lazarus is dead.
Matt 8:22..."Let the dead bury the dead."
Matt 10:8..Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead..."

He used the word in describing His own future Matt 17:9 Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead.
Matt 22:32 God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
There are many more--When Christ resurrected Lazarus, where was Lazarus? If in heaven, why bring him back to earth, leave him in heaven. If in hell, why did He tarry for 4 days--keeping him suffering for so long. The children He raised from the dead--they were young, not considered old enough to be accountable yet, so they would have gone to heaven, so why bring them back to this miserable life again? Christ called the dead 2 things--dead, or sleeping. If they're sleeping, they can't hear you, neither if they are dead.

Christ did use the term - and it refers to the body.

The Godman Jesus Christ did not "cease to exist", nor "cease to be aware".
The body of the Incarnate Christ suffered death, but God never dies.

"Death" is the separation of the body from the soul, and "sleep" refers to the position of the body (look at its use).

In the parable of Lazaros and the rich man, the rich man is shown to be fully aware. So is Abraham. The Jewish understanding of where righteous souls went upon death was the "bosom of Abraham", used also by Christ. The rich man was not in the 'bosom of Abraham', but where he was was separated by a gulf though he could still speak to Abraham.

God Himself tells Jeremiah about (the dead) Rachels' prayer, and His answer to her. How could the dead be unaware, yet in Jeremiah 31, (the dead) Rachel know's of her people's (children's) exile.

The association of death with sleep and forgetting is a pagan teaching.

Standing Up · Feb 20, 2012

Fireinfolding said:
Even Jesus speaks of their traditions and the apostles of Jewish fables and to give no heed to them.

Jesus didnt teach it and the apostles didnt teach it and I regard it as another doctrine.

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Even with the warning, it's amazing how many Jewish traditions made it into Christianity.

Purgatory.
Prayer to the deceased.
Priest office.
Sacrifice offering over and over.
Laity.
Passover on the 15th.

What else?

Thekla · Feb 20, 2012

Standing Up said:
Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Even with the warning, it's amazing how many Jewish traditions made it into Christianity.

Purgatory.
Prayer to the deceased.
Priest office.
Sacrifice offering over and over.
Laity.
Passover on the 15th.

What else?

This is a bold accusation; can you please tie concrete Scriptural or extant evidence for the verse that you cite as referring to what the specific issues you claim its reference to ?

I do not know of a purgatory per se in Jewish teaching.

Do you mean Christ's teaching on the "bosom of Abraham" = purgatory ?

On your claim of "sacrifice over and over", this has been discussed elsewhere, and it has been repeatedly pointed out that your understanding of this re: the RC and EO is not accurate.

As for the "office of priest", do you refer to iereus, or prsebyteros ?

Passover is not a Christian feast, and from what I know is not observed in most denominations; thus how is this relevant (and how is it relevant to this subforum) ?

jackmt · Feb 20, 2012

Thekla said:
This is a bold accusation; can you please tie concrete Scriptural or extant evidence for the verse that you cite as referring to what the specific issues you claim its reference to ?

I do not know of a purgatory per se in Jewish teaching.

Do you mean Christ's teaching on the "bosom of Abraham" = purgatory ?

On your claim of "sacrifice over and over", this has been discussed elsewhere, and it has been repeatedly pointed out that your understanding of this re: the RC and EO is not accurate.

As for the "office of priest", do you refer to iereus, or prsebyteros ?

Passover is not a Christian feast, and from what I know is not observed in most denominations; thus how is this relevant (and how is it relevant to this subforum) ?

Purgatory is implicit in Maccabees' offering sacrifice and prayers for the dead. Added to canon of RCC Scripture to justify the doctrine and practices.

Standing Up · Feb 20, 2012

Thekla said:
This is a bold accusation; can you please tie concrete Scriptural or extant evidence for the verse that you cite as referring to what the specific issues you claim its reference to ?

I do not know of a purgatory per se in Jewish teaching.-snip-

Whether folks are aware of other Jewish traditions is beside the point. You're the one who tied praying to the deceased to Jewish tradition, rather than Christian tradition.

Thekla · Feb 20, 2012

Standing Up said:
Whether folks are aware of other Jewish traditions is beside the point. You're the one who tied praying to the deceased to Jewish tradition, rather than Christian tradition.

Nice slippage; it was and is also Christian practice.

It is a concrete expression of the reality of the promise of Christ per Scripture.

I have noted before:

upon the death of the body, there is continuing awareness (Jeremiah, Christ's description)

those who believe in Christ will never die (John 11:26)

Christ has recapitulated all things (Paul's teaching)

Christians are the body of Christ and the body is not divided (Paul)

all parts of the body are needful and connected (Paul)

we are come (present tense) to the Heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews)

Do you now claim that despite the teaching of Christ and Paul, these things are false ?

Standing Up · Feb 20, 2012

Thekla said:
Nice slippage; it was and is also Christian practice.-snip-

There's lots of things Christians practice. But we're looking to source. The source of praying to the deceased was Judaism, before any of your "explanations" for said practice were in place.

Thekla · Feb 20, 2012

Standing Up said:
There's lots of things Christians practice. But we're looking to source. The source of praying to the deceased was Judaism, before any of your "explanations" for said practice were in place.

Worshipping God was also Jewish tradition before the NT was written.

Could you please tie any of the items on your list and their association with the verse that you cite to concrete NT teachings ?

Meanwhile, the association of death, sleep, forgetfulness, and division were longstanding pagan teachings.

Standing Up · Feb 20, 2012

Thekla said:
Worshipping God was also Jewish tradition before the NT was written.

You think the NT doesn't correlate with worshipping God?

We're trying to find Christian tradition, rather than Jewish tradition. You said, praying to the dead is a Jewish concept (after all they had no idea of 'communion of saints', body of Christ, etc).

Standing Up · Feb 20, 2012

jackmt said:
Purgatory is implicit in Maccabees' offering sacrifice and prayers for the dead. Added to canon of RCC Scripture to justify the doctrine and practices.

Something like that. Even Maccabees affirms it was not prophetic (God-breathed), yet folks have pulled out their tradition from it.

Thekla · Feb 20, 2012

Standing Up said:
You think the NT doesn't correlate with worshipping God?

We're trying to find Christian tradition, rather than Jewish tradition. You said, praying to the dead is a Jewish concept (after all they had no idea of 'communion of saints', body of Christ, etc).

1. The OT is a preparation for Christ, Who fulfills.
2. They had the idea of the people of God as a community, a worshipping community, a people.
3. They recognized that the connection is through God.

You are envisioning Christianity as something without precedent, which is factually false. As Paul says, Christ is incarnate "when the fulness of time had come" - after the preparatory period described in the OT.

The fulfillment was not accepted by all the Jews, but clearly accepted by some.

I ask again, where is the teaching in the NT that what you claim is referred to by the passage you cite is what you claim (from your list).

And where in the NT do you find that the body of Christ is divided by death ?

It seems you want to make your case by claiming:
1. tradition = bad
2. all Jewish tradition = really bad
3. some Christian practices = Jewish tradition

Standing Up · Feb 20, 2012

Thekla said:
1. The OT is a preparation for Christ, Who fulfills.
2. They had the idea of the people of God as a community, a worshipping community, a people.
3. They recognized that the connection is through God.

You are envisioning Christianity as something without precedent, which is factually false. As Paul says, Christ is incarnate "when the fulness of time had come" - after the preparatory period described in the OT.

The fulfillment was not accepted by all the Jews, but clearly accepted by some.

I ask again, where is the teaching in the NT that what you claim is referred to by the passage you cite is what you claim (from your list).

And where in the NT do you find that the body of Christ is divided by death ?

It seems you want to make your case by claiming:
1. tradition = bad
2. all Jewish tradition = really bad
3. some Christian practices = Jewish tradition

Whatever. But I'd still like to know the Christian source of praying to the deceased, rather than the Jewish source.

PS Do you find it odd that the group back then rejected the quartodecimans, but accepted this practice of praying to the dead?

justinangel · Apr 20, 2012

jackmt said:
Purgatory is implicit in Maccabees' offering sacrifice and prayers for the dead. Added to canon of RCC Scripture to justify the doctrine and practices.

When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all. Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?
1 Corinthians 15, 28-29

When Paul writes the Church is "baptising for or on behalf of the dead", he uses the Greek word huper, which may be translated to mean "for the sake of" or "for the benefit of" the dead in Christ who await the redemption of their bodies on the last day. Paul isn't admonishing the the Christian community at Corinth for this traditional practice, so he too believed that the celebration of the sacrament - perhaps the general prayers and penitential works involved - assisted the faithfully departed souls. Obviously if these souls were already in heaven, they would be in need of no benefit, and if they were in hell, they couldn't possibly gain any benefit. So where are these souls who can benefit from the celebration of baptism among the living? The Catholic answer is in a state or place in between: purgatory.

Paul's first Letter to the Corinthians reflects the second Book of Maccabees (12, 41-45). Here's the passage:

They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

Both the Corinthians and Judas perform a ritual by taking the resurrection of the faithfully departed into account. The author of the OT text says that it would have been "useless and foolish" of Judas Maccabeus to perform the sacrificial sin offering on behalf of the godly dead if there were no hope in the resurrection. Following the same train of thought, Paul asks: "If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?" The apostle probably had this Maccabean passage in mind when he wrote his letter to the Corinthians. He is affirming that baptism on behalf of the dead would be superfluous only if there were no resurrection on the last day notwithstanding Christ's eternal atonement for sin. Temporal atonement is left for the faithful to make. Moreover, we should note that in Maccabees 12 God is referred to as judge. The context of the above passage is God's judgment and forgiveness of sin: the fully blotting out of sinful deeds and freedom from all debt of sin by appeasing the divine justice. Jesus alludes to his heavenly Father as judge in Matthew 5, 25-26: "Make friends quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny."

Our Lord is teaching about the particular judgment of sinners at the moment of death and the temporal consequence and penalty of sin: prison or a place of detainment until full restitution is made. This prison is a metaphor for purgatory. And by "accuser" Jesus means Satan. The Greek word for accuser is antidikos, which is also used by Peter in his first Letter (5:8-9): "Your adversary (antidikos) the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him steadfast in faith." Satan prowls around to accuse us of sin before God (Zech 3:1; Job 1:6-12). To restore the equity of justice between God and us because of the times we have failed to resist the devil, we must personally atone for our sins by temporal punishment and cleansing of the soul. At our particular death we do go to court with our accuser, and so what Jesus means by saying we should make friends with him before we face our judge is that we should settle all scores we have with the devil by renouncing all his empty promises in this life, so that he can make no accusation against us.

Our time in the debtors prison depends on all unsettled scores; sins that have been eternally forgiven by our repentance and acts of contrition but still require temporal satisfaction to be made on our part to appease the divine justice. David was forgiven for his sins of adultery and murder in view of the merits of Christ upon his repentance and sacrificial offering, but the equality of justice between him and God wasn't restored until his Creator took the life of his son. Purgatory is not an invention of the Catholic Church. The ancient Jews, Paul, and Jesus acknowledged its existence. It is very important for us to offer up sacrifices and prayers for the dead for the sake of releasing them from prison by helping them pay the last penny.

And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shalt have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just.
Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160)

PAX

jackmt · Apr 21, 2012

vs. 27 "He" refers to Christ.
vs. 29 "We'' refers to the church.
''I" throughout refers to Paul. "You" throughout, to his readers, the church.

vs. 28 "They" refers to ?

I believe it refers to practitioners of paganism. The whole passage is an argument in support of resurrection of the dead, not baptism for the dead. It is as if he were saying to his detractors that even the pagans believe in resurrection.

If Christ be not risen from the dead, our faith is in vain. And if you can pay for your own sins and thereby reconcile yourself to God, Christ died in vain.

What scriptures support praying to the saints?

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