Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
The first 2 refer to saints on earth. Saints are the believers in Christ (I Cor.1:2 KJV); i.e., Christians, not dead RCs canonized by the Rome. The context is an allegorical vision; not a good 'proof text.' And it says nothing about saints in heaven.
I dont see where Jesus teaches to pray to any other then the Father.
They ask "teach us how to pray"... he says when you pray "say Our Father"
Other nations were known to pray to other gods, so folks can chose to pray to whomever they want.
Its just not how Jesus taught
I dont see where Jesus teaches to pray to any other then the Father.
They ask "teach us how to pray"... he says when you pray "say Our Father"
Other nations were known to pray to other gods, so folks can chose to pray to whomever they want.
Its just not how Jesus taught
Right.
Two on earth.
Ask those on earth to pray with us.
Nothing about petitioning the deceased. It's a tradition that arose apart from apostles.
Actually, it was long practiced in Judaism (since the Joseph was carried captive into Egypt), and never stopped (nor corrected by Christ, nor the apostles).
-snip-
Actually, it was long practiced in Judaism (since the Joseph was carried captive into Egypt), and never stopped (nor corrected by Christ, nor the apostles).
Further, Christ says the Holy Spirit will be among us, and that those who live in Him will never die. The body of Christ is not separated, and all parts of the body of Christ are needful (Paul).
Last I checked we were Christians, not practicing Judaism.
Was it practiced Scripturally in Judaism? Are you referring to the Maccabees? Thet were not priests and so sacrificed contrary to the law. They also prayed for the dead, which goes against Scripture. (II Sam.12:21-23) This is why Jews and non RCs reject the books, among other reasons.
21 His attendants asked him, Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!
22 He answered, While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live. 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.
Right.
Two on earth.
Ask those on earth to pray with us.
Nothing about petitioning the deceased. It's a tradition that arose apart from apostles.
Thanks for trying Thelka but you know I just dont see the teaching of Jesus Christ or the apostles reflected in all of that.
I do know you can pray to or ask the Father, and he speaks of where two on earth agree it will be done for them by my Father in heaven
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
1John 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
So both asking and praying (as in prayers) are shown
And it shows two words for pray
Pray proseuchomai
1) to offer prayers, to pray
pray 83, make prayer 3, pray for 1
pray deomai
1) to want, lack
2) to desire, long for
3) to ask, beg
a) the thing asked for
b) to pray, make supplications
pray 12, beseech 9, make request 1
Both of which apply to the Father but the second I have found in relation to others, like when he says I "pray thee" its not the same word.
Either way, Jesus taught them how to ask the Father, and how to pray saying "Our Father". And he adds I say NOT to you that I will pray the Father for you but continues to say the Father Himself loves you because you believe I have come from God. He gave no other instruction or alternatives but to pray the Father in His name. Afterall its by Him we come to God. However he does say its fine that the two of you ON EARTH agree (and he did specify on earth)
And as we can see (as we have the apostles for our examples) of them asking the brethren (on earth) to pray for them. But you never hear of them mentioning praying to anyone else in heaven.
pray |prā|
verb [ intrans. ]
address a solemn request or expression of thanks to a deity or other object of worship : the whole family is praying for Michael | [ trans. ] pray God this is true.
• wish or hope strongly for a particular outcome or situation : after several days of rain, we were praying for sun | [with clause ] I prayed that James wouldn't notice.
adverb formal or archaic
used as a preface to polite requests or instructions : pray continue.
• used as a way of adding ironic or sarcastic emphasis to a question : and what, pray, was the purpose of that?
ORIGIN Middle English (in the sense [ask earnestly] ): from Old French preier, from late Latin precare, alteration of Latin precari ‘entreat.’
But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
We don't practice Judaism, that is correct.-snip-
I agree I do not see it as being after Christ. Its neither the teaching of Jesus Christ nor in the teaching of His Apostles.
Is the body of Christ separated, or not ?
May I therefore suggest, if you start to not practice Judaism and instead practice Christianity, you'll have to find a different reason to support your "old" judaistic practice.
Right. Thekla insists the practice has come out of Judaism. IIRC 1 Maccabees supports the notion. Some do not even consider Macc to be God-breathed.
If the apostles wanted us to practice Judaism, they'd have taught us the law of Moses. Not sure why there's such a disconnect between the two judaistic practices.
May I therefore suggest, if you start to not practice Judaism and instead practice Christianity, you'll have to find a different reason to support your "old" judaistic practice.
I do not understand what you are getting at re:
Where does it state in Scripture not to pray for those who are alive in Christ ?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?