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I think it´s high time for you to present some sort of solid evidence for a causal connection between homosexuality and the end of a society - beyond a few handselected anecdotes that suggest a correlation if you don´t look too close.That's what was thought in ancient Greece and Rome too. And here we are yet again.
Besides being tolerant towards homosexuality these societies were also tolerant towards religion. Careful with concluding from correlation on causation - it can give you the funniest results.Something about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? How's that go?
I think it´s high time for you to present some sort of solid evidence for a causal connection between homosexuality and the end of a society - beyond a few handselected anecdotes that suggest a correlation if you don´t look too close.
Besides being tolerant towards homosexuality these societies were also tolerant towards religion.
Careful with concluding from correlation on causation - it can give you the funniest results.
Also, HOmosexuality is accepted in most parts of Europe. Then again, there's a general more open attitude sexually throughout most of Europe.
There is a little link towards the top that says 'from here' and it leads to NARTH.
Me, of course.
So you support same sex marriage?
Yes and no. And that is the basis of these discussions of morality for me, really. I look at it as 'no harm, no foul'. If somethings harms someone, it is wrong unless the harm caused prevents a larger harm. Moral relativity at its finest, no?
Homosexuality may well cause some small harm upon society at large. I don't think so, nor has anyone shown me where this is the case, but it may. I think the harm done to homosexuals and society at large by keeping them as second class citizens greatly out weighs the small harm homosexuality possibly causes.
I wasn't phrasing it that to elicit any emotional response. I phrased it that way because that is how I see it.
In the same way that not smoking is healthy.
Hmm. Do you feel it is healthy for a man or woman to be sexually attracted to children? I would prefer a yes or no answer.
Sorry Steeler, I missed your post.
I suffer from a condition called "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder". This condition stems directly from traumatic experiences I have experienced. They aren't particularly my fault, they certainly weren't natural, the condition has changed traits of my personality, and I require concessions be made.
So... due to traumatic experiences, I have a condition, and I require concessions, most of which most people are more than happy to accomodate. Some homosexuals are homosexual due to traumatic experiences, and they require concessions. Why should people be any less prepared to grant homosexuals those concessions than they are prepared to grant them to me? I don't see the difference. Discredit? Moi? I never did any such thing! Right there in my quoted statement I clearly said it is a fact that trauma CAN result in homosexual traits. However, while trauma CAN account for homosexuality in some cases, there is almost certainly a genetic predisposition in those cases to begin with, and further, for the majority of homosexuals, they are so oriented due to genetics predisposition and healthy nurture, not necessarily trauma.
We are more familiar with the negative effects of traumatic, abusive and neglectful environments on children, because these are the ones most closely studied. But in terms of more general "nurture influences", the short answer is, we just don't know. Does an environment with a greater emphasis on music, bright colours and literature make someone more inteligent? Possibly, some would even say probably... but no one knows for certain. And thats for INTELIGENCE which is a great deal more studied than homosexuality.
How does this prove that homosexuality causes harm?
Why? How does their answer affect your answer?
(also, sorry about the Penguins tonight.)
Well, it depends on their answer. I guess I will explain to you.
Nearly every atheist on here advocates abortion and homosexuality.
However, doesn't abortion cause harm to the fetus? Harm is involved. However, most don't seem to mind the harm in this context.
Why the picking and choosing? If you are going to say that harm determines ethics, then why does this not apply to abortion?
Well, I personally don't exactly advocate abortion, not homosexuality. I accept both, and find nothing at all in any way wrong with the latter, but I do not quite advocate them.
It's not just harm, it's degree of harm, and the weighing of that harm against the harm of the alternative. I mean, there is harm on operating on a person suffering from appendicitis. But there is less harm in doing so than in not doing so and having the person die from it.
[/i]Abortion is a separate issue. Yes, there is harm to the fetus, but the debate comes down to whether that harm is lesser than the harm to the mother by disallowing abortion.
With homosexuality, there is no harm to anyone involved. Neither person in the homosexual couple is harmed, so the debate that is part of the abortion issue does not even apply. The abortion issue either harms the fetus by terminating it, or harms the mother by taking away her right to choose how her body is used. Homosexuality, on the other hand, harms neither party. So it's not really comparable.
Harm is still involved. I mean, is it harmful for a man to have multiple wives? Is it harmful for a man or woman to have a sexual relationship with a 14 year old? Is it harmful to tell a white lie? Is it harmful to cheat?
Yes, but I still don't see the harm in a person being homosexual.There are obviously different types of harm and the degrees of it.
I'm game. I say go for it. Sounds interesting...I am tempted to thwart this discussion in another direction that is off topic. But I know I shouldn't
If that´s your impression you have been misunderstanding most of them.Nearly every atheist on here advocates abortion and homosexuality.
Well, firstly you may have a different idea of what constitutes "harm". Personally I´d prefer the term "causing suffering".However, doesn't abortion cause harm to the fetus? Harm is involved. However, most don't seem to mind the harm in this context.
I think it does.Why the picking and choosing? If you are going to say that harm determines ethics, then why does this not apply to abortion?
To your questions: Possibly, in almost all cases, possibly, yes.
And you say harm is still involved in homosexual relationships. What is that harm?
Could you elaborate? Thanks.
I do not base all of my ethics on harm alone. However, I do believe there is harm involved in homosexual relationships:
"It is such a rational examination that I intend to undertake in order to show that homosexuality is physically harmful to those who practice it. The scientific evidence supporting this assertion is overwhelming. Mr. Firehammer writes that "Michigan's statewide 'gay' newspaper,
Between the Lines, reports the risk of anal cancer 'soars' by nearly 4,000% for men who have intercourse with men.
Again, these are all arguments against promiscuity or irresponsible sexual behaviour, not homosexuality in and of itself.'The rate doubles again for those who are HIV positive.' Between the Lines admits there's no such thing as 'safe intercourse' to prevent this 'soaring' cancer risk ..." Even a publication devoted entirely to a homosexual readership is willing to admit that the disparities in disease contraction between homosexuals and heterosexuals are enormous. The Medical Institute of Sexual Health reported in 1999 that
- "Homosexual men are at significantly increased risk of HIV/AIDS, hepatitis, anal cancer, gonorrhea and gastrointestinal infections as a result of their sexual practices."
- "Women who have intercourse with women are at significantly increased risk of bacterial vaginosis, breast cancer and ovarian cancer than are heterosexual women."
- "Significantly higher percentages of homosexual men and women abuse drugs, alcohol and tobacco than do heterosexuals." It seems that there is a correlation between the choice to pursue homosexuality and the choice to pursue other self-destructive behaviors as well, since the initial barriers of rational and moral restraint to the deleterious undertakings of those individuals have fallen. "
The bolded part is hilarious. "X is effectively safe, as long as you ignore all the ways in which X is not safe."Furthermore, the very nature of the human organism as an entity whose properties have evolved over time will point to the harms of homosexuality. Evolution, as postulated by Charles Darwin in his 1859 book, The Origin of Species, entails a natural selection of those traits best suited to an organism's reproductive fitness, or the ability to pass on its genes. Through millions of years of natural selection in favor of organisms with the capacity to reproduce heterosexually, the mechanisms of heterosexual reproduction have become effectively safe, of course, when not taking into account environmental factors such as STDs."
Is there something wrong with speaking like a woman? And how many gay men do so, anyway? Beyond stereotypes presented in the media, do you have stats on the real-world way in which gay men behave?I believe that homosexuality is the result of an combination of biological predispositions and environmental factors. I believe that these factors negatively influenced the progression of homosexuality, thus making it wrong and dysfunctional. Why do so many homosexual men speak and act like women?
Why do so many heterosexual men dress like women? Why do so many heterosexual women enjoy watching lesbian porn? Why do so many heterosexual women dress, look, and act like men?Why do so many homosexual women dress, look, and act like men?
And you're qualified to make that assessment because...I believe there is gender identity confusion and maladjustment.
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