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What proof would you need?

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Astridhere

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A lot of yakking and yapping but no one but what is this meant to prove? So what if the Archaeopteryx wasn't one of modern birds' ancestors? What do you think this shows?

Edit: What's funny is that on one of those articles (Not the Christian Science Monitor, of course) it says:
"Witmer adds that with Archaeopteryx dethroned, more recently discovered fossils, including Epidexipteryx, Jeholornis and Sapeornis, become candidates for the world's oldest bird."

You are another one that is unable to speak to human ancestry. Now you want to focus on birds because you are unable to defend your human ancestors nor describe what they should look like. Your bird ancestry is a mess and you have evidence of a mess. It is that simple.

Can you give us a description of what an intermediate human will look like? No

Can you explain why the fossil evidence supports both ancestry to chimp like ancestors and not? No

It is you that is yakking and yapping, pal.
 
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Loudmouth

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Perhaps you can answer the quandry of how your fossil evidence supports ancestry to chimp like as well a ancestry to a creature nothing like a chimp?

Perhaps you can outline this for us? What fossils support ancestry from a chimp-like ancestor?

Loudmouth has gone on and on about my putting up a description of an intermediate.

And that challenge has gone unmet.

Now I again challenge you evolutionists to do the same thing yourselves. After all this is your scenario of human evolution.

A transitional is a fossil having a mixture of characteristics from two divergent taxa. Australopithecines fit this criteria. They have features more like those of modern humans (e.g. pelvis and femur) and features more like those found in chimps (cranium size, prognathus, brow ridges).

So now it is your turn. Define transitional.

Are intermediates supposed to have a mix of chimp/human characteristics now that your researchers know the common ancestor was not chimp-like?

Sorry, but bipedal is not the same as "not chimp-like". You are equivocating. The common ancestor would have features found in chimps that are not found in modern humans, including a prognathus, brow ridges, and reduced cranial capacity. There are other features I can list as well.

Perhaps you wil go with ape like. In this case which ape? Mankind shares more morphology with an orangutan than a chimp.

Humans More Related To Orangutans Than Chimps, Study Suggests

Orangutans May Be Closest Human Relatives, Not Chimps

The scientific community disagrees with these studies, and you already know that.
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African skulls find throws story of human evolution into disarray

Nothing in this article puts the transitional nature of H. erectus or H. habilis in doubt. The only question is what the precise line of descent was. They are still transitional.

Homo Erectus is much more primitive than once thought due to new finding on sexual dimorphism akin to Gorillas.

Why does this exclude H. erectus as a transitional?

There is no order in the fossil record of human ancestry at all.

Yes, there is. There is a consistent increase in cranium size throughout the hominid fossil record.

You evolutionists also have no fossil evidence to demonstrate chimp ancestry back to any common human/chimp ancestor.

Moving the goal posts are we? The transitionals between us an the common ancestor is enough to falsify creationism.

You go right ahead and defend your science. None of you will be able to is my expectation. I predict more excuses and no resolution.

You have done nothing to refute the transitional nature of any of the fossils. They continue to have a mixture of human and chimp features just as a transitional should have. They are transitional.

At present the research supports creationist paradigms.

In order for that research to exist you need a definition for transitional. Where is it?

Homo erectus is very primitive and ape like.

Why does this exclude H. erectus from being a transitional?

I have already spoken to Turkana Boy and his ape features that demonstrate discontinuity with mankind. Huge ape like sexual dimorphism further supports my claim. Habilis was not the ancestor of erectus as the two coexisted for millions of years apparently and according to your current thinking. Now you need another ancestor 2-3mya. Was it Lucy, Afarensis? Lucy is a 3.5ft ape with curved fingers and likely not the maker of the Laetoli footprints. It is also unlikely that the human femor and human metatarsel belonged to her.

Why do any of these features exclude these fossils from being transitional? You keep pointing to the ape-like features in these fossils. Those are the exact features that make them transitional.

Now you or any evo please tell me what you look for in human intermediates that suggest mankind evolved from a question mark.

A mixture of modern human and basal ape features like those found in H. erectus.
 
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Loudmouth

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Arch used to be the missing link. It now isn't. That is the fact and that is the change. Deal with it.

Archie is still intermediate. What Archie is not in the direct ancestral line to birds. These are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. You need to stop equivocating between the two. For example, the platypus is intermediate between placental mammals and reptiles. The platypus is obviously not in the direct ancestral line between reptiles and placental mammals. THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Also, there really is no way to determine if one fossil is the ancestor or descendant of another fossil. Only DNA can do this. What can be determined is whether or not a fossil contains that intermediate features one would expect to see if evolution is true. Archie has those features. Archie is intermediate. As Darwin put it:

"In looking for the gradations by which an organ in any species has been perfected, we ought to look exclusively to its lineal ancestors; but this is scarcely ever possible, and we are forced in each case to look to species of the same group, that is to the collateral descendants from the same original parent-form, in order to see what gradations are possible, and for the chance of some gradations having been transmitted from the earlier stages of descent, in an unaltered or little altered condition."--Origin of Species

That is EXACTLY WHAT ARCHIE IS. Archie is a collateral descendant to the lineage that led to modern birds in which there are preserved features from those earlier stages of descent. This is how intermediate fossils and evolutionary steps have been described FROM THE VERY START OF THE THEORY.

Will you please explain how fossil evidence supports ancestry to a chimp like ancestor and also an ancestor unlike a chimp?

It doesn't. This is your own misrepresentation of science. Bipedal is not the same as "unlike a chimp" in all respects. The common ancestor would have a small cranium JUST LIKE CHIMPS. The common ancestor would have large brow ridges JUST LIKE CHIMPS. The common ancestor would have a prognathus JUST LIKE CHIMPS.

All you can do is ask questions of creationists about your own science. Why is this?

It is not my own science. You are obviously using a different definition for intermediate. I want to know what that definition is. So what is it?
 
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Loudmouth

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You are another one that is unable to speak to human ancestry.

So says the person who claims there are no transitional fossils but is unable to even describe what a transitional fossil should look like.

Can you give us a description of what an intermediate human will look like? No

We can go one more step. We can show you one. Here it is:

Homo_erectus_new.JPG
 
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sandwiches

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You are another one that is unable to speak to human ancestry. Now you want to focus on birds because you are unable to defend your human ancestors nor describe what they should look like.

You brought up the Archaeopteryx, sweetie. ;)

Your bird ancestry is a mess and you have evidence of a mess. It is that simple.

Can you give us a description of what an intermediate human will look like? No
You've been given examples of what we believe to be human ancestors and you rejected them. It's your time to put up and tell us what a human ancestor would look like, in your opinion.
 
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Doveaman

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Such as nearly every event that happens every day? This morning, I was really hungry. That was the truth. I had a large meal, so I'm no longer hungry. Now THAT is the truth.
It was true that you were really hungry this morning, and now it is no longer true that you were really hungry this morning.

Got it. :thumbsup:
Last week it was true that Lynn Margulis was a geosciences prof at UMass Amherst. Now the truth is that she's dead (RIP).
It was true that last week Lynn Margulis was a geosciences prof at UMass Amherst, and now it is no longer true that last week Lynn Margulis was a geosciences prof at UMass Amherst.

Got it. :thumbsup:
Truth changes every day, and so should our understanding of the truth.
I see what you mean. This post was true when you wrote it, but it was no longer true when I read it. :thumbsup:
 
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Doveaman

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If we have imperfect knowledge then how can you claim anything to be TRUTH?
You are the one who is claiming imperfect knowledge, not me.

I exist, that’s the TRUTH.
That's what happens when you take an honest and rational approach to reality. We don't write things down and then pronounce them to be absolute truth.
We actually realize that we have imperfect knowledge and that our claims should always be tentative and supported by evidence.
God’s claims are not held tentatively. They are held as TRUTH.

Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31-32).


Are you not sure about anything at all?
 
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Doveaman

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Let's start with the basics. Evolution is both a fact and a theory. Life evolves. That's the fact. HOW life evolves, the mechanisms that life utilizes to do this, that's the theory.
That man evolved from ape and bird from dinosaur is not a fact, it's a theory.
 
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Loudmouth

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You are the one who is claiming imperfect knowledge, not me.

So humans are infallible?

God’s claims are not held tentatively. They are held as TRUTH.

Believing something to be true does not make it true. Even worse, dogmatic beliefs like the ones you describe can only lead to blindly followed untruths. If you do not hold your beliefs tentatively then you have admitted that no amount of evidence will ever change your mind. At least to me, this is a waste of a brain. You might as well be a mindless robot following orders.

Are you not sure about anything at all?

I am reasonably sure about many things, but absolutely sure? No. However, absolute surity is really irrelevant and not practical. Could we all be brains in a box living in a Matrix style simulation? I am not going to say that it is impossible, and there is no way that you or I could state that it is impossible. However, it is not a practical nor a relevant position to hold.
 
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Doveaman

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The best thing to do is make them define what a transitional is, and what features a transitional should have.
I have always found that creationists run away from this like the plague.
They are quick to claim that there are no transitionals, but are never able to tell us what a transitional should look like.
DarwinApe.jpg
 
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Doveaman

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Really? God gave you the computer you're using?
Yes.
God paid for it?
Yes.
God creates the electricity you're using?
Yes.
God created the plastics,
Yes.
medicine,
Yes.
air conditioning,
Yes.
cars, etc you use every day?
Yes.
Oh no... wait... that's man's reason, logic, and knowledge.
God created those too.

“Remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you the ability to produce wealth.” (Deut 8:18).
 
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Doveaman

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Orogeny

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So evolution theory may be false but you have no reason to believe it is, right?

Well, some of us have reasons to believe it is false, even if you don't.
Reiterated for the nth time: It doesn't MATTER if you disagree with the THEORIES of evolution, the FACT of evolution is still a fact.
 
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