What price submission?

[ZiSunka]

But since you seem to want to stick to the bible lets talk about our submission to Christ.

Yes, by all means, let's do talk about it.

As an anabaptist, I believe that everything is based on the Bible. Don't you?

 

[ZiSunka]

Yea, he does not mean "manipulate" in a bad way.

I "manipulate" my wife in certain ways and she likes it a whole lot.

I hope you understand the difference between making love to your wife and manipulating her.
Clearly, this man was not making love to his wife, and women don't need to be beaten. A man who treats his wife kindly doesn't need to beat her or abuse or manipulate her into submission.

I think it's highly offensive as a woman for the men in this thread to be taking the word "manipulate" so lightly.

What on earth would make Christian men think that it's okay to joke about spousal abuse?

 

[MrJim]

I think it's highly offensive as a woman for the men in this thread to be taking the word "manipulate" so lightly.

What on earth would make Christian men think that it's okay to joke about spousal abuse?

We're not...I think you are reading into it.

Bro. Daniel sorta hijacked it off into another direction...

Maybe I take the word "manipulate" lightly 'cause I can recognize when others are doing it to me and am somewhat amused by it...

 

[ACADEMIC]

Menno is right.

When referring to humans, I generally use "manipulate " in a negative sense to mean a form of very ugly controlling behavior.

But not everyone is as choosy about their words, and "manipulate" does have a benign meaning, e.g., a 3 year-old manipulating blocks.

No one is taking the negative connotation of "manipulate" lightly. I was just trying to defend Bro. Daniel from being charged with wife abuse when in reality his only issue here was a poor word choice.

And, I was just trying to get some people to lighten up on their attack against him for what is realy just a poor word choice.

In another thread elsewhere, a woman wrote, "Christian community out there, please pray for me, my children and that my husband would greatly hurt his face today as he hits the floor."

As a teacher, it was clear to me that the poster had English as a second lanuage and was not meaning what she actually wrote. Yet ladies attacked her for two straight days. As it later came clear, the lady meant that her husband would feel the pain his sin caused his wife and children, resulting in him prostrating himself before God in repentant prayer.

 

[ZiSunka]

And, I was just trying to get some people to lighten up on their attack against him for what is realy just a poor word choice.

How in the world do you see an attack when there is no attack? Asking someone to clarify their "poor choice of words" is not an attack.

I guess I would be more inclined to "lighten up" on him if he hadn't used the word in so many posts, even providing a definition that used the negative uses of the word, stating that he has a Biblical mandate to manipulate his wife. He even said that it is his duty as a husband to change his wife and get her to submit by manipulating her. I really don't think I'm misunderstanding him. Many men his age do indeed believe that a woman must be forced into submission, like the taming of the shrew. I'm simply asking him to state whether or not that is his belief.

It's interesting that the menfolk are all defending daniel's point of view on the subject, without any Biblical evidence that that point of view has any merit.

Where does the Bible say men should manipulate their wives in any way?

And by the way, women don't like to be manipulated during love making. They like to be caressed and fondled, but not manipulated. Manipulation is something robots do in industrial plants, but not something women like in bed. Very mechanical, manipulation.

Women don't take the subject of spousal abuse lightly, and neither should men. It's not a time for jokes.

 

[Danfrey]

Just a note here to be sure everyone is clear. Brother Daniel is not the same person as (Danfrey) Daniel.

I would just like to say that there is a big difference in submission and abuse. As Christian men I would say that every man that I am familiar with that posts in this forum knows the difference. Reading through all the posts in this thread, there is no joke made regarding abuse. There was a play on words made regarding manipulation. Manipulation can be abusive, but it is not necessarily. There were times when I needed to skillfully change my wife's views on a given subject. This to many would be manipulation. To others it would be considered leading my home.

Unfortantly because of the extreme cases like the one that was listed in the start of this thread, too many Christians are ready to throw out the Biblical teaching of a woman submitting to her husband. We have to be very careful not to "throw the baby out with the bath water".

 

[ACADEMIC]

How in the world do you see an attack when there is no attack? Asking someone to clarify their "poor choice of words" is not an attack.

I guess I would be more inclined to "lighten up" on him if he hadn't used the word in so many posts, even providing a definition that used the negative uses of the word, stating that he has a Biblical mandate to manipulate his wife. He even said that it is his duty as a husband to change his wife and get her to submit by manipulating her. I really don't think I'm misunderstanding him. Many men his age do indeed believe that a woman must be forced into submission, like the taming of the shrew. I'm simply asking him to state whether or not that is his belief.

It's interesting that the menfolk are all defending daniel's point of view on the subject, without any Biblical evidence that that point of view has any merit.

Where does the Bible say men should manipulate their wives in any way?

And by the way, women don't like to be manipulated during love making. They like to be caressed and fondled, but not manipulated. Manipulation is something robots do in industrial plants, but not something women like in bed. Very mechanical, manipulation.

Women don't take the subject of spousal abuse lightly, and neither should men. It's not a time for jokes.

Alright, everyone, me included, listen up.

Choose your words very carefully and stop making plays on words. This is a very serious subject, afterall.

Now on with it....

 

[brother daniel]

Alright, everyone, me included, listen up.

Choose your words very carefully and stop making plays on words. This is a very serious subject, afterall.

Now on with it....

I submit to Jesus in her and the church,

Its all very humbling, thank God.

I am surpised how easy it is for Christions to be offended, myself included.

Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[ZiSunka]

I know you guys think I'm being mean, but I don't think you realize what an important issue this is for women, especially anabaptist women.

It's estimated that anabaptist women are abused by their husbands more than any other sect of Christianity. Anabaptist women are almost 20% more likely to be physically, verbally, emotionally abused and controlled in a negative way by their husbands, and are 90% less likely to report it to the authorities.

My friend Becky did a master's thesis on the topic, using a survey with a pool of more than 1000 women in the NE Ohio area, an area rich with anabaptist communities, as well as almost every other denom. Episcopal women were the least likely to be abused, followed by Messianic women, and so on, down to anabaptist women, who were found to face domestic abuse not only from their husbands, but from sons and brothers, too.

NY Times did an article on the prevalence of domestic abuse among the conservative anabaptist groups in central and eastern PA about a year ago, and the investigative reporters found that the typical conservative anabaptist woman is the victim of 11 incidents of domestic abuse in her lifetime, as compared to .25 incidents per woman in the general population. They also found that the men used the Bible out of context to condone and explain their abusive actions.

I wanted to find out what the attitude around here would be, and it pretty much fulfilled my expectations--it's a subject that won't be taken seriously by anabaptist men.

 

[ZiSunka]

There were times when I needed to skillfully change my wife's views on a given subject. This to many would be manipulation.

Again, it's probably your choice of words, but a man can discuss things with his wife in a rational and informative way trying to help her understand where he's coming from without manipulating her into submitting to his will.

It's not the duty of the Christian man to "skillfully change his wife's views" on any subject. He can lead her to the Biblical truth of a matter and let her respond to that, but it's not Biblical for a man to force a woman to believe what he believes.

If it is Biblical for a man to change a woman's views on a subject through "skillful manipulation," show me where.

 

[CelticRose]

Wow. Those are pretty scarey stats AE&D. It is interesting though that the Messianics are the lowest in abuse issues as they work more out of a traditional Jewish perspective I think. It is important to keep a Godly perspective & remember that while it is the man's role to lead he is to lead in & with Godly love - abuse does not arise out of that.

 

[ZiSunka]

Sooo many men think that being the head of the family means that they have to rule with an iron fist, that they have to have control of everything, the last word in every discussion, that women exist to serve them.

It's really sad that in this day and age, there would be men that think of women as underlings to be used and owned.

That's where abuse comes from. Men who understand the value of women don't abuse their wives.

 

[CelticRose]

It is sad that a tradition that has stood for non-violence should so harbour violence within the home - which should be a sanctuary from the conflicts of the world. It is even sadder that people who say they are Christ's followers have so not understood his attitude towards women, especially sinful women.

 

[Danfrey]

In a forum like this, it is not possible to know enough about a person to understand the whole picture. I made the final decision in my home about all serious issues. When doing so, I always considered my wife's opinion as well as my childrens. She was very content with the honor that I showed her. Many would have considered my too controlling, but our society has tried to blur the male and female roles in society and the home and claim that any alternative is abusive. I can attest to the fact that amongst conservative Mennonites there are many you use scripture as a basis to take advantage of their wives. This is no reason to toss out Biblical principles conserning the roles in the home though. Far too often overcorrection has lead the church down the wrong path.

 

[CelticRose]

I don't think AE&D or I are advocating ditching biblical principals, just ensuring that said principals are in fact biblical.

 

[CelticRose]

This thread has got me thinking about the 10 cow woman. The going price for a really good looking woman who would also make a good wife in this particular village was 5 cows. This man had a daughter so ugly nobody would offer even one cow for her. He figured she would never marry & he'd be stuck with her till the day he died. Then one day a man from another village asked about his daughter. He knew the going rate was 5 cows but he offered 10 cows for the man's daughter. The village thought he was crazy but he married her anyway & carted her off to his own village. A year or so later the father figured he'd better visit & see how she was getting along. He couldn't believe it. Everyone in the village told him what a prize the man had in his wife. She was beautiful, fruitful, kept a marvellous house & was a great cook; worth much more than the 10 cows that had been paid for her.

P.S I am not advocating the buying & selling of women in marriage!

 

[ZiSunka]

Submission is a choice--dominance is not.

When a man makes all the decisions, that is dominance. When a wife and husband can't come to agreement on a subject and the wife defers to the man for the sake of harmony in the home, that is submission.

In dominance, the man says, "I am the head of the household and the decision is mine."

In submission, the wife says, "I don't agree with you, but you are the head of this household so the decision is yours."

Dominance is self-centered. Submission is love and peace-centered.

See the difference?

My parents practiced Biblical submission for 30 years and it always worked. Because my mother voluntarily submitted to my father after discussing the topic, she never felt dominated or unloved. Because my mother defered to my father after discussing a topic, my father never felt that he had to argue or create dischord with her. Half the time he would think about my mother's end of the discussion and choose to do it her way because it was more logical or practical. They did this out of love for each other, for us the children and for God.

My father told me that he had grown up in a home where his father had dominated his mother and it sowed nothing but unhappiness and anger, and he vowed that when he got married, he would marry a woman who could help him make good decisions, not just one who would buckle under to whatever he wanted. He said it was the smartest thing he could have ever done. He was sure he would not have had as happy and good of a life without my mom's input into his decisions.

Men who need to dominate women probably don't feel empowered in other parts of their lives and they take that out on the family, I guess.

 

[Adara]

Submission is a choice--dominance is not.

When a man makes all the decisions, that is dominance. When a wife and husband can't come to agreement on a subject and the wife defers to the man for the sake of harmony in the home, that is submission.

In dominance, the man says, "I am the head of the household and the decision is mine."

In submission, the wife says, "I don't agree with you, but you are the head of this household so the decision is yours."

Dominance is self-centered. Submission is love and peace-centered.

*Pokes her head into the thread*

Well said!

 

[Danfrey]

Submission is a choice--dominance is not.

When a man makes all the decisions, that is dominance. When a wife and husband can't come to agreement on a subject and the wife defers to the man for the sake of harmony in the home, that is submission.

In dominance, the man says, "I am the head of the household and the decision is mine."

In submission, the wife says, "I don't agree with you, but you are the head of this household so the decision is yours."

Dominance is self-centered. Submission is love and peace-centered.

See the difference?

My parents practiced Biblical submission for 30 years and it always worked. Because my mother voluntarily submitted to my father after discussing the topic, she never felt dominated or unloved. Because my mother defered to my father after discussing a topic, my father never felt that he had to argue or create dischord with her. Half the time he would think about my mother's end of the discussion and choose to do it her way because it was more logical or practical. They did this out of love for each other, for us the children and for God.

My father told me that he had grown up in a home where his father had dominated his mother and it sowed nothing but unhappiness and anger, and he vowed that when he got married, he would marry a woman who could help him make good decisions, not just one who would buckle under to whatever he wanted. He said it was the smartest thing he could have ever done. He was sure he would not have had as happy and good of a life without my mom's input into his decisions.

Men who need to dominate women probably don't feel empowered in other parts of their lives and they take that out on the family, I guess.

This is worded in a way that makes complete sense. You are correct that dominance is not the way of the Lord. Far too often there is a lack of balance in many of these issues. With this post, you have elequently portrayed that balance.

When God is the primary focus of a home, there is harmony. This translates into many areas of the home from the marriage relationship to the parent and child relationship.

See Ashes, we do agree on things once in a while.

 

[christian73]

The Bible says to love your wife as Christ loved the church.