What physical act do you feel called to perform when you stand in the presence of God on Holy Ground?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Lutheranism goes downhill real quick....following The Thirty Year War (1619-1649). The Thirty Years War is consider the first of the three world wars....where it is defined as the civilian economy shuts down and starts back up again as only a military economy. Combined deaths of civilians and combatants deaths between 4.5M and 8M in 17th Century numbers. Sucked the life out of classical Lutheranism as the war was mainly on German soil.

Lutheranism goes into peitism for the hundred years as the lay people questioned: Why all this death due to doctrine? And out of the ashes, Friedrich Schleiermacher emerges reconciling non doctrinal Lutheranism with Enlightenment ideals.

Honestly, it is so much easier to be a Catholic.

 

[The Liturgist]

Lutheranism goes downhill real quick....following The Thirty Year War (1619-1649). The Thirty Years War is consider the first of the three world wars....where it is defined as the civilian economy shuts down and starts back up again as only a military economy. Combined deaths of civilians and combatants deaths between 4.5M and 8M in 17th Century numbers. Sucked the life out of classical Lutheranism as the war was mainly on German soil.

Lutheranism goes into peitism for the hundred years as the lay people questioned: Why all this death due to doctrine? And out of the ashes, Friedrich Schleiermacher emerges reconciling non doctrinal Lutheranism with Enlightenment ideals.

But despite this, evangelical Catholicism has survived, just like how Orthodoxy survived persecution by Rome (the equivalent to the Thirty Years War for us was the Fourth Crusade, when Venice raised an army ostensibly to take back Jerusalem, but then instead diverted it to Constantinople, and thus even though the Byzantine Empire would be restored after a brief hiatus, it was weakened to the point that Turkocratia would become inevitable, and we survived that also.

The number of casualties from all of this would be extremely high, especially when one factors in the persecution of Christians and wars against Christians waged by the Ottoman Empire after they conquered Constantinople, especially the genocides of the 1870s-1915 against the Bulgarians, Syriac Orthodox, Pontic Greeks and especially the Armenians, and there was a Pogrom against the Phanariot Christians who still live in Istanbul as recently as 1915.

By the way, I suspect that Turkocratia could have contributed to the communications breakdown between the Lutheran theologians and Patriarch Jeremias II. Subsequently, there is a possibility that Calvinists managed to get to Patriarch Cyril Lukaris, but it has also been suggested that the Calvinistic writings attributed to him were forgeries, but these were dogmatically rejected at the Synod of Dositheus.

 

[The Liturgist]

Honestly, it is so much easier to be a Catholic.

The Lutherans are Evangelical Catholics, analogous to the continuing Anglican churches that are Anglo Catholics. i recognize them as fully Catholic and as Orthodox in worship, although there are minor differences between us in terms of the soteriological model, but ones amenable to dialogue, since we can see the fruit of Orthodoxy in the work that the LCMS and LCC are doing.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

By the way, I suspect that Turkocratia could have contributed to the communications breakdown between the Lutheran theologians and Patriarch Jeremias II.

Melanchthon did translate some of the Augsburg Confession articles from Latin to Greek for Jeremias II. And then there was no communication afterwards between the Lutherans and Orthodox. I will have to investigate Turkocratia. Never heard of him before. My historical understanding is when there is no communication back between nobles or rulers, it is a polite way of dismissing the subject matter.

 

[The Liturgist]

Melanchthon did translate some of the Augsburg Confession articles from Latin to Greek for Jeremias II. And then there was no communication afterwards between the Lutherans and Orthodox. I will have to investigate Turkocratia. Never heard of him before. My historical understanding is when there is no communication back between nobles or rulers, it is a polite way of dismissing the subject matter.

Turkocratia is not a man, it is a term that refers to the period when almost all Eastern Orthodox Christians, except for the Finns, Estonians, Northern Slavs (Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians and Russians), Balts and Georgians, and most Oriental Orthodox, lived in areas that had been conquered by the Ottoman Empire.

It is derived from from “Turk” meaning the Ottoman Empire, and “Cratia” meaning ruling over, like bureaucrat, autocrat, etc, so Turkocratia means a period when the Orthodox were ruled over by Turks.

Forgive me for not explaining that word my friend.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Honestly, it is so much easier to be a Catholic.

Catholics also got slaughtered in the Thirty Years War.

Anabaptists always cry in the beer stating they were persecuted by the Lutherans and Catholics....

The Thirty Years War was an equal opportunity for death of Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists and Anabaptists. Lutherans got the worse of it, as a scorched earth policy was in effect on German lands. Germany did recover from this until the 1800's.

 

[The Liturgist]

Catholics also got slaughtered in the Thirty Years War.

Anabaptists always cry in the beer stating they were persecuted by the Lutherans and Catholics....

The Thirty Years War was an equal opportunity for death of Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists and Anabaptists. Lutherans got the worse of it, as a scorched earth policy was in effect on German lands. Germany did recover from this until the 1800's.

Indeed, and it had just recovered when Bismarck then forcibly unified the different lands, which I wish he had not done, since among other things it created artificial barriers between them and the adjacent German speaking lands of Liechtenstein Austria, Luxembourg and Switzerland, while eroding the cultural distinctives of the lands that were amalgamated.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Indeed, and it had just recovered when Bismarck then forcibly unified the different lands, which I wish he had not done, since among other things it created artificial barriers between them and the adjacent German speaking lands of Liechtenstein Austria, Luxembourg and Switzerland, while eroding the cultural distinctives of the lands that were amalgamated.

And just as German Unification was completed...two world wars.

 

[The Liturgist]

And just as German Unification was completed...two world wars.

Indeed, since everything was set up like a row of dominos due to the political alliances of the time, for a war to be inevitable in the event Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated, which tragically happened.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Indeed, since everything was set up like a row of dominos due to the political alliances of the time, for a war to be inevitable in the event Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated, which tragically happened.

And one wonders if the three total wars of Germany was some sort of judgment of God for rejecting the Gospel. Luther was pessimistic concerning the German peoples....calling them drunkards and pagans. There seems to be a resistance to the gospel among the German peoples over the last 500 years. With Luther, Germany had the Gospel.... they had it all. Germany was the birth place of all theological liberalism which was replaced by Nazi ideology. Now it is profound secularism.

 

[The Liturgist]

And one wonders if the three total wars of Germany was some sort of judgment of God for rejecting the Gospel. Luther was pessimistic concerning the German peoples....calling them drunkards and pagans. There seems to be a resistance to the gospel among the German peoples over the last 500 years. With Luther, Germany had the Gospel.... they had it all. Germany was the birth place of all theological liberalism which was replaced by Nazi ideology. Now it is profound secularism.

I don’t think so - I can understand why it might seem that way, but we have to focus on the fact that God is so infinitely loving as to literally die for us. It is human beings who wreaked havoc in central Europe during those wars.

The other thing to remember is that scripturally, martyrdom and confessorship is a blessing - “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.” This has been interpreted by the early church as a promise that the holy martyrs and confessors will be saved.

One thing I greatly dislike about Islam is how it perverts the idea of martyrdom by applying the title of martyr to those who die in battle or while killing people in the name of that heretical false religion.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Crypto-Calvinism was also recognized early and noted as a major "controversy" affecting the Church; good article here: The Crypto-Calvinistic Controversy | Book of Concord

 

[Dan Perez]

What physical act do you feel called to perform when you stand in the presence of God on Holy Ground?

Moses removed his sandals. Every man used to take their hat off. When receiving communion Catholics used to kneel. What do you do?

read 1 Cor 3:5-15 , it all there , called the BEMA SEAT !!

dan p

 

[Bob Crowley]

I don't often feel a sense of "holy ground" even in church, and I say that as someone who is well aware of my own failings and sinful habits.

The simple reason is that I think God is everywhere at all times - He's in and through us no matter where we are. I've had too many "spiritual experiences" to doubt that.

I fail to see the difference between God being "in me" at home or driving the car, and God being "in me" in front of the altar, or if you like 'standing on 'holy ground'.

Going by the number of disused Churches these days, the "holy ground" seems to be taking a bit of a battering. I'm Catholic now, but when I was Presbyterian from late 1982 to late 1991 (although I was still technically Presbyterian for a few more years leading up to my conversion to Catholicism circa 1996 or 97) there were three Presbyterian Churches in our parish.

Only one of them is now a church. I think one has been modified to a home, and the other appears to be in limbo. A few months ago I happened to listen to a "Big Band" perform in the hall attached to that church and that's when I became aware it was no longer a church.

The Presbyterian Church where my parents got married way back in 1953 is now a night club I believe, although the building itself is "heritage listed". So much for "Holy Ground"!

Valley Presbyterian Church & School (former)

This Presbyterian Church was constructed in 1885 to a design by influential architect Richard Gailey, while the Sunday School building was designed by honorary Presbyterian architect Alexander Brown Wilson and built in 1906. The church was built at the height of the Valley’s residential boom to...

heritage.brisbane.qld.gov.au

At present, the church and Sunday School are owned by the Warner Street Unit Trust, and both are used as nightclubs.

PS - I think the only reason I was baptised Presbyterian was due to the fact my parents got married there. In the same article it mentions "McWhirters" (see below). My mother worked there before she got married. In 1953 there were strict denominational rules about who could marry in which church. That may not be completely gone now - I remember one past priest saying to me that an Orthodox priest or whatever seemed to think he was the devil when he asked if he could carry out a combined Orthodox / Catholic wedding (or something similar).

But I digress. My father was unbelieving Catholic and my mother Anglican. I suspect she walked around behind McWhirters and sweet talked the Presbyterian pastor into marrying them. He obviously agreed but the quid pro quo (there's my latin lesson for today) was that any offspring would be baptised Presbyterian. I was baptised in the same church the following year. So I didn't exactly come from a strong Presbyterian family background. My parents didn't even go to church.

McWhirter’s massive bulk store, which had been constructed on land adjacent to the church in 1919 epitomised the spread of commercial and industrial land, dwarfing the Presbyterian Church.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't often feel a sense of "holy ground" even in church, and I say that as someone who is well aware of my own failings and sinful habits.

The simple reason is that I think God is everywhere at all times - He's in and through us no matter where we are. I've had too many "spiritual experiences" to doubt that.

I fail to see the difference between God being "in me" at home or driving the car, and God being "in me" in front of the altar, or if you like 'standing on 'holy ground'.

Going by the number of disused Churches these days, the "holy ground" seems to be taking a bit of a battering. I'm Catholic now, but when I was Presbyterian from late 1982 to late 1991 (although I was still technically Presbyterian for a few more years leading up to my conversion to Catholicism circa 1996 or 97) there were three Presbyterian Churches in our parish.

Only one of them is now a church. I think one has been modified to a home, and the other appears to be in limbo. A few months ago I happened to listen to a "Big Band" perform in the hall attached to that church and that's when I became aware it was no longer a church.

The Presbyterian Church where my parents got married way back in 1953 is now a night club I believe, although the building itself is "heritage listed". So much for "Holy Ground"!

Valley Presbyterian Church & School (former)

This Presbyterian Church was constructed in 1885 to a design by influential architect Richard Gailey, while the Sunday School building was designed by honorary Presbyterian architect Alexander Brown Wilson and built in 1906. The church was built at the height of the Valley’s residential boom to...

heritage.brisbane.qld.gov.au

PS - I think the only reason I was baptised Presbyterian was due to the fact my parents got married there. In the same article it mentions "McWhirters" (see below). My mother worked there before she got married. In 1953 there were strict denominational rules about who could marry in which church. That may not be completely gone now - I remember one past priest saying to me that an Orthodox priest or whatever seemed to think he was the devil when he asked if he could carry out a combined Orthodox / Catholic wedding (or something similar).

But I digress. My father was unbelieving Catholic and my mother Anglican. I suspect she walked around behind McWhirters and sweet talked the Presbyterian pastor into marrying them. He obviously agreed but the quid pro quo (there's my latin lesson for today) was that any offspring would be baptised Presbyterian. I was baptised in the same church the following year. So I didn't exactly come from a strong Presbyterian family background. My parents didn't even go to church.

It is a bit different for us traditional Liturgical Christians. In our Churches the Altar is our Lord's throne where he physically and spiritually comes together with us here on earth and all the company of Heaven. Through the Eucharist time and space are transcended. Truly Emanuel; God with us; so we will bow, kneel or genuflect, even make the sign of the Holy Cross as is each of our customs.

 

[soldier of light]

What physical act do you feel called to perform when you stand in the presence of God on Holy Ground?

Moses removed his sandals. Every man used to take their hat off. When receiving communion Catholics used to kneel. What do you do?

I want to keep my feet clean according to Ezekiel chapter 34. To me this means not following politicians who lead us astray. Politics are like dirty pasture. In my opinion

 

[The Liturgist]

I want to keep my feet clean according to Ezekiel chapter 34. To me this means not following politicians who lead us astray. Politics are like dirty pasture. In my opinion

Indeed, but nothing in @Xeno.of.athens post was political in nature or had anything at all to do with politics.

 

[Tom8907]

Kneel and pray.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Honestly, it is so much easier to be a Catholic.

Unless you are a Lutheran, that is!

 

[Joseph G]

What physical act do you feel called to perform when you stand in the presence of God on Holy Ground?

Moses removed his sandals. Every man used to take their hat off. When receiving communion Catholics used to kneel. What do you do?

Depends on what the Holy Spirit inspires me to do at any given moment. Sometimes fall on my face prostate, or kneel, or sit, or laying down in bed, or standing - perhaps with hands at my side, or open palms, or raised high above my head in worship.

Or just walking around having a conversation with Him.

It is all worship.

In all situations mindful that He is *always* approachable, and I am encouraged to present myself to Him with boldness (despite my weaknesses). Because His throne is one of Grace and His Spirit is within me - thanks to my precious and *only* personal Savior, High Priest, Advocate, Source of Truth, Great Physician and Healer (especially of the heart), Encourager, Challenger, Comforter, Intercessor, Teacher, Shephard, Discipliner - and most joyous and unworthily of all - His Friend.

And likewise, everyone is free to approach Him however His Spirit inspires them. He alone discerns the difference between the genuine and the fraud - as only He can see our hearts.

God bless us all who believe and obey Jesus!

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