What physical act do you feel called to perform when you stand in the presence of God on Holy Ground?

[Xeno.of.athens]

What physical act do you feel called to perform when you stand in the presence of God on Holy Ground?

Moses removed his sandals. Every man used to take their hat off. When receiving communion Catholics used to kneel. What do you do?

 

[NBB]

I like to stay still and lower my head or eyes a bit.

 

[Joseph G]

Whether my prayer is "official" - such as morning prayers on my couch, in my literal prayer closet, waking in the middle of the night in my bed, at Church, in the grocery store, standing in the hall with a neighbor - everywhere my foot steps is Holy ground because His Spirit dwells in me permanently.

Having developed this level of intimacy with Him, I am so blessed to be comforted with the knowledge that I do indeed "pray without ceasing" - and am *always* in His presence - no longer compartmentalizing my fellowship with Him.

As for whether I kneel, throw my face into the carpet, stand and raise my hands, remove my hat or shoes, hold someone's hands or lay my hand on their shoulder, or dance as joyfully as King David - it is *always* in response to how the Spirit moves me.

NO mere man imposes upon me when to kneel, or make hand gestures, or kiss any object, or do or say or wear anything - therefore I do not compel anyone else to conform themselves to *me*.

All I encourage any of my brothers and sisters to do is to aspire to do this - always - so that we will share in equal blessings bearing much fruit together:

Make My Life A Prayer To You

 

[tturt]

Derek Prince, who was a Greek scholar at Cambridge and knew other languages including Hebrew, studied all the words about worship and said they all involved movement.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

What physical act do you feel called to perform when you stand in the presence of God on Holy Ground?

Moses removed his sandals. Every man used to take their hat off. When receiving communion Catholics used to kneel. What do you do?

What is a holy ground? Thanks for sharing.
Blessings.

 

[BobRyan]

What physical act do you feel called to perform when you stand in the presence of God on Holy Ground?

Moses removed his sandals. Every man used to take their hat off. When receiving communion Catholics used to kneel. What do you do?

The Bible says to remove your shoes and bow on your knees when God manifests in physical form. That happened with both Moses and Joshua

 

[Richard T]

I once was praying with my girlfriend and it felt to me like Jesus came in the room. I went prostrate and just prayed under my breath. I knew it was a holy time and just stayed quiet because I knew he was there. Meanwhile my girlfriend got a vision of Jesus and He told her some very specific things. I remained silent until she talked to me. There does seem to be a difference to me between Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Without the gift of visions you only know by the witness. I was happy she saw him directly.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What physical act do you feel called to perform when you stand in the presence of God on Holy Ground?

Moses removed his sandals. Every man used to take their hat off. When receiving communion Catholics used to kneel. What do you do?

At my church when we come before and approach the Altar to receive the Most Holy Eucharist, we kneel and receive the gift of Christ's own body and blood.

More generally, it depends on context. During the Divine Service I am part of the congregational and corporate acts of worship, we typically don't genuflect during the Service, it is mostly standing and sitting in accordance with the rhythm of the Liturgy. In my own private devotional time my posture varies, sitting, standing, kneeling, and prostration.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

What physical act do you feel called to perform when you stand in the presence of God on Holy Ground?

Moses removed his sandals. Every man used to take their hat off. When receiving communion Catholics used to kneel. What do you do?

I make the sign of the cross. I will genuflect or kneel if canonically appropriate and liturgically appropriate for the church I am in.

The Coptic Orthodox and Ethiopian Orthodox and many Syriac Orthodox retain the ancient tradition of removing their shoes during worship - the clergy wear liturgical slippers. The Armenians do not do this, probably because of the much colder temparature. All of my visits to Oriental Orthodox churches however have been to Coptic and Syriac Orthodox churches, and in the Coptic ones, everyone removes their shoes, myself included, and I quite like it.

In Coptic Orthodox worship, as my friend @dzheremi can attest, there is a beautiful sense of unity and Christian love. The services are long, longer than those of most other Orthodox churches (only the Ethiopian Orthodox have services which are definitely longer), but they are beautiful, and never boring. When visiting a Coptic parish I like to get there at the very start of things, which is usually 8 AM, knowing that the liturgy will probably end at around 11:30 followed by a parish lunch, so I will be there until at least 1 PM.

The Copts also bake the bread both for consecration in the Eucharist, and the antidoron, the blessed bread for distribution to everyone, fresh, on the morning of the service, and this smell combined with the smell of incense in a Coptic parish I find to be quite heavenly.

In many Eastern Orthodox churches the bread that will be used is presented the night before in a liturgical service known as the Litia, which is also very beautiful but unfortunately we don’t get to smell it baking.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Bible says to remove your shoes and bow on your knees when God manifests in physical form. That happened with both Moses and Joshua

Not quite. Moses and Joshua saw the Holy Spirit, which appeared for them. However, it was in the Incarnation that God became a physical person, a man, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who is physical, unlike the Holy Spirit, who as His name implies, is not physical, but who does appear, for example, as tongues of fire on the Holy Apostles on Pentecost.

Additionally, I would note that God gave those commands to Moses and Joshua personally - there is no general command that we must remove our shoes if we see God, but it is a pious thing to do. Thus when a Coptic Orthodox Christian or Ethiopian Orthodox Christian enters into the holy precincts of his church surrounded by icons of Christ our God, they will have removed their shoes. However, in most other traditional churches, due in many cases to weather, this becomes impractical - God is no doubt seen, for example, by many Christians in Northern Europe and other colder places where the requirement for warmth precludes one worshipping while discalced.

 

[The Liturgist]

At my church when we come before and approach the Altar to receive the Most Holy Eucharist, we kneel and receive the gift of Christ's own body and blood.

More generally, it depends on context. During the Divine Service I am part of the congregational and corporate acts of worship, we typically don't genuflect during the Service, it is mostly standing and sitting in accordance with the rhythm of the Liturgy. In my own private devotional time my posture varies, sitting, standing, kneeling, and prostration.

-CryptoLutheran

I have seen some Lutherans genuflect towards the altar in accordance with the Western tradition, but i more commonly see it among Anglicans.

On one occasion, when visiting an LCMS parish, I was surprised that someone asked me why I was making the sign of the cross, but it was just one person. The parish was in most respects more high church than your typical Novus Ordo Catholic parish, in that the pastor lead the service ad orientem, and people received communion while kneeling at the altar rail, which I quite liked.

 

[The Liturgist]

When receiving communion Catholics used to kneel.

Many still do. Indeed if you visit a traditional Latin mass, you will find that everyone kneels and receives on the tongue. Additionally, my understanding is that all Roman Catholics are in theory allowed to receive in this way, but one occasionally hears of priests who don’t like it when a traditional Catholic insists on kneeling and receiving on the tongue.

Also at the Traditional Latin Mass the norm is to genuflect towards the altar while making the sign of the cross when entering or leaving a pew, which I also quite like. it is extremely pious.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I have seen some Lutherans genuflect towards the altar in accordance with the Western tradition, but i more commonly see it among Anglicans.

On one occasion, when visiting an LCMS parish, I was surprised that someone asked me why I was making the sign of the cross, but it was just one person. The parish was in most respects more high church than your typical Novus Ordo Catholic parish, in that the pastor lead the service ad orientem, and people received communion while kneeling at the altar rail, which I quite liked.

At my congregation, about half the congregation will Cross themselves, the other half don't. I do find it strange that you'd be questioned for Crossing yourself at any Lutheran congregation though. But, as you noted, it's probably a one-off case.

I do know that there is genuine concern among American Lutherans, across synodal boundaries, about loss of Lutheran distinctiveness and a trend in some cases of--for lack of a better term--"Protestantization", that is a kind of assimilation into the larger cultural milieu of American Protestantism. It's a major concern that I've heard many Lutheran pastors talk about.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

At my congregation, about half the congregation will Cross themselves, the other half don't. I do find it strange that you'd be questioned for Crossing yourself at any Lutheran congregation though. But, as you noted, it's probably a one-off case.

I do know that there is genuine concern among American Lutherans, across synodal boundaries, about loss of Lutheran distinctiveness and a trend in some cases of--for lack of a better term--"Protestantization", that is a kind of assimilation into the larger cultural milieu of American Protestantism. It's a major concern that I've heard many Lutheran pastors talk about.

-CryptoLutheran

It is a concern to see Lutheranism move towards the position of bible-church evangelicalism.

 

[The Liturgist]

It is a concern to see Lutheranism move towards the position of bible-church evangelicalism.

I don’t believe Lutheranism is moving in such a direction, at least not the LCMS/LCC of our friends including @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian , which I think right now is doing an exemplary job among Western liturgical churches.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don’t believe Lutheranism is moving in such a direction, at least not the LCMS/LCC of our friends including @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian , which I think right now is doing an exemplary job among Western liturgical churches.

It is a concern to see Lutheranism move towards the position of bible-church evangelicalism.

Some Churches/Synods have done so; even within our synod... 7 Miles down the road from my present Church is a congregation that could be described as "a cult of personality"; charismatic guy who is very adept at scratching itchy years. He has a practiced and finely honed disregard for the liturgy. This is one of the reasons congregational polity sucks. While most congregations are on track here in the east (the west is a different story). there are always a few rogue clergy.

I can speak for our east region, and there has been a very strong movement back to the historical liturgical practices of the Church prior to and during what the historians call the age of orthodoxy. This is the result of efforts by dedicated pastors and the efforts of our seminaries in St. Catherine's Ontario and Ft. Wayne Indiana.

Bismarck and his Prussian Union; the forced merger of Lutheran and Calvinists, almost killed confessional Lutheranism in Germany and much of Northern Europe as well.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Bismarck and his Prussian Union; the forced merger of Lutheran and Calvinists, almost killed confessional Lutheranism in Germany and much of Northern Europe as well.

Yes. Absolutely. We see the Prussian Union in the rejection of Bonhoeffer and Sasse' Barmen Declaration against the Nazis in 1934.

 

[The Liturgist]

Some Churches/Synods have done so; even within our synod... 7 Miles down the road from my present Church is a congregation that could be described as "a cult of personality"; charismatic guy who is very adept at scratching itchy years. He has a practiced and finely honed disregard for the liturgy. This is one of the reasons congregational polity sucks. While most congregations are on track here in the east (the west is a different story). there are always a few rogue clergy.

I can speak for our east region, and there has been a very strong movement back to the historical liturgical practices of the Church prior to and during what the historians call the age of orthodoxy. This is the result of efforts by dedicated pastors and the efforts of our seminaries in St. Catherine's Ontario and Ft. Wayne Indiana.

Bismarck and his Prussian Union; the forced merger of Lutheran and Calvinists, almost killed confessional Lutheranism in Germany and much of Northern Europe as well.

Yes. Absolutely. We see the Prussian Union in the rejection of Bonhoeffer and Sasse' Barmen Declaration against the Nazis in 1934.

I agree entirely!

Now, on the historical front, correct me if I’m wrong, but even prior to that in Prussia the Lutheran church had been “discouraged” from the Lutheran Orthodoxy of the 1600s-early 1700s, durimg which you had 50,000 communicants in Leipzig in neighboring Saxony despite the population only numbering 29,000 (not to mention the splendid church music of JS Bach and his sons, and also his mentor Buxtehude, and Heinrich Schutz) in favor of pietism and “Enlightenment”-based rationalism by the time of the Napoleonic Wars.

The Oxford History of Christian Worship records that “Unrestrained subjectivism demolished the bridges to the past and made enlightenment, social pacification, and individual betterment the purposes of worship, which should convey a sense of reverence and cultivate the religious sentiment. Worship was shaped as a thematic unity around the sermon. Music’s job was to create a dignified celebration and inspire pious feelings. Just how far the pedagogical ideas of the Enlightenment could penetrate the liturgy is shown by the grotesque sermon titles for the First Sunday of Advent, “On Stealing Wood” (referring to the cutting of palm branches in Matthew 21:8, from the gospel of the day); for Christmas, “On the Use of Stall Fodder”; for Easter, “On the Danger of Being Buried Alive”; for Pentecost, “How We Should Behave Piously and Prudently during Thunder Storms.” And, without specified biblical texts, there were sermon themes such as “Health,” “Vaccination against Cow Pox,” “The Growing of Potatoes,” “The Three-Field System of Agriculture,” and so on. The Lord’s supper was transformed from a congregational event into the private communion of the several social conditions and classes. Even the words of distribution at communion show the spirit of the Enlightenment: “Taste this bread: may the spirit of devotion rest upon you with its fullest blessing! Taste a little wine: the power of virtue resides not in this wine but rather in you, in divine doctrine, and in God!”

I think we can draw a parallel between this kind of drab Rationalist liturgy, and the politically oriented liturgies one encounters in the kind of ELCA parish for example where on an Easter Sunday many years ago I was scandalized by the pastor preaching about social issues and not celebrating Holy Communion.

I would also say that to me, the worship during the period of Lutheran Orthodoxy, especially in Saxony, but also elsewhere in Germany and Scandinavia, for example! Sweden, comes across as extremely reminiscent of Eastern Orthodoxy in terms of the extended length of the liturgies, which were highly musical and which could be three hours long, with Bach having all the time needed for the liturgical music at the Thomaskirche and Nicholaskirche, without neglecting preaching from the lectionary, and also the large number of people presenting themselves for communion even where that required traveling into a city such as Leipzig.

 

[The Liturgist]

I can speak for our east region, and there has been a very strong movement back to the historical liturgical practices of the Church prior to and during what the historians call the age of orthodoxy. This is the result of efforts by dedicated pastors and the efforts of our seminaries in St. Catherine's Ontario and Ft. Wayne Indiana.

Its because of movements like that, and the piety of confessional Lutherans like you and @Ain't Zwinglian , and the heritage of Lutheran Orthodoxy with all of its achievements, that I have extreme confidence in the ability of Evangelical Catholicism to overcome the problem with your neighboring congregation.

This is one of the reasons congregational polity sucks. While most congregations are on track here in the east (the west is a different story). there are always a few rogue clergy.

I agree. But if you do implement an Episcopal hierarchy, I would suggest having a means to protect against a takeover of the church by liberal bishops, which is basically what happened in the ECUSA and the UMC (and presumably the ELCA, although you would be in a position to know more about it).

In most of the mainline churches liberal movement started as a doctrinal divergence that corrupted the seminaries, and then from there spread into Episcopate, who then forced the local parishes to accept extremely liberal clergy, contrary to their wishes.

I think, and let me know if I am on the right track here, that the key moment in the emergence of the LCMS as a confessional church, in which it escaped the condition of the mainline ALC and LCA, was the very correct refusal to capitulate to the schismatic Seminex movement following the efforts to improve confessional standards at Concordia University. This began a trend of the protection of the process of pastoral formation in the LCMS which would have the effect of precluding doctrinal subversion.

Thus the main problem now seems to be a refusal or some congregations to go along with the liturgical program of the whole denomination.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Now, on the historical front, correct me if I’m wrong, but even prior to that in Prussia the Lutheran church had been “discouraged” from the Lutheran Orthodoxy of the 1600s-early 1700s, durimg which you had 50,000 communicants in Leipzig in neighboring Saxony despite the population only numbering 29,000 (not to mention the splendid church music of JS Bach and his sons, and also his mentor Buxtehude, and Heinrich Schutz) in favor of pietism and “Enlightenment”-based rationalism by the time of the Napoleonic Wars.

Lutheranism goes downhill real quick....following The Thirty Year War (1619-1649). The Thirty Years War is consider the first of the three world wars....where it is defined as the civilian economy shuts down and starts back up again as only a military economy. Combined deaths of civilians and combatants deaths between 4.5M and 8M in 17th Century numbers. Sucked the life out of classical Lutheranism as the war was mainly on German soil.

Lutheranism goes into peitism for the hundred years as the lay people questioned: Why all this death due to doctrine? And out of the ashes, Friedrich Schleiermacher emerges reconciling non doctrinal Lutheranism with Enlightenment ideals.