What people believe does not change the truth...

[Pythons]

you might as well be worshiping satan as far as k4c or EGW are concerned. in fact, i can dig you up an EGW quote where she says exactly that if you're interested.

I have read Ellen say some odd things about the Catholic Church.....
...Given her total rejection of the Trinity doctrine I didn't put much faith in her teachings.

 

[k4c]

Pythons; Is it not a teaching of SDA - that shortly prior to the "end of days"...
...The Catholic Church will initiate a rule of law which prevents people from the worship of Christ on Saturday?

Official quote from The Catholic Catechism​

Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer - “Saturday is the Sabbath day.”
Question - “Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?”
Answer – “We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann,C.S.S.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.​

What was established at the Council of Laodicea in 364-AD regarding the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment?

Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364)​

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, the Sabbath, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day (Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day if however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.”---Canon 29, Council of Laodicea, 364 C.E.

Martin Luther had no such teaching that I'm aware of & it's not the question I asked...

Martin Luther was only the beginning of a long process with many steps.

"Oh Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us the day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan at Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the Apostle Paul wrote that he would oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God — the Man of Sin, the son of perdition . . . What is the Temple of God? Is it stones and wood? Did not Paul say, The Temple of God is holy, which Temple ye are? To sit — what is it but to reign, to teach and to judge. Who from the beginning of the church has dared to call himself master of the whole church but the Pope alone. None of the saints, none of the heretics ever uttered so horrible a word of pride." (Luther's Works, Vol. 2. p. 281).

"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments.... Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also."--MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist," pages 71, 72. Founder of the LUTHERAN Church

"The observance of the Lord's day [Sunday] is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the church."-- Augsburg Confession of Faith, quoted in "Catholic Sabbath Manual," Part 2, Chap. 1, Sec.10. LUTHERAN Church.

...For your eschatology to be valid it would necessitate the Catholic Church admit it taught error in holding Mass on Saturday.
...Not to mention huge sections of the Orthodox Christian Faith which holds 'sabbath service' every Saturday.

Just because someone holds a mass on Saturday does not mean they acknowledge the Sabbath. Here is what they say about the Sabbath.

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, the Sabbath, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day (Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day if however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.”---Canon 29, Council of Laodicea, 364 C.E.

I'm interested in knowing in what way do you feel the Catholic Church....
...Will convict itself of teaching heresy.
...Because that is what would be required for the Catholic Church to cease the worship of Christ as God on Saturday.

Can you provide an aswer for me?

We are to worship God seven days a week but we can olny acknowledge and keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of which they do not do.

"Since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent. The custom of Sunday observance rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." (Roman Catholic scholar John A. O'Brien, The Faith of Millions, 1974, p.400,401.)

Official Statement of the Catholic Church ​

“Sunday is founded, not of scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday.” Catholic Record, September 17, 1893.

Official Statement of the Catholic Church ​

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]“Sunday is our mark of authority, the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923”.[/FONT]

 

[Aibrean]

k4c if you want to quote the Book of Concord, you should quote the ENTIRE segment.

Scripture has abrogated the Sabbath-day; for it teaches that, since the Gospel has been revealed, all the ceremonies of Moses can be omitted. And 60] yet, because it was necessary to appoint a certain day, that the people might know when they ought to come together, it appears that the Church designated the Lord's Day for this purpose; and this day seems to have been chosen all the more for this additional reason, that men might have an example of Christian liberty, and might know that the keeping neither of the Sabbath nor of any other day is necessary.

And if you want to quote Martin Luther you should also include his comments from his Large Catechism

Therefore I constantly say that all our life and work must be ordered according to God's Word, if it is to be God-pleasing or holy. Where this is done, this commandment is in force and being fulfilled.

If we rest in Christ, we fulfill the commandment. That is the point of the gospel.

 

[Sophia7]

Official quote from The Catholic Catechism​

Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer - “Saturday is the Sabbath day.”
Question - “Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?”
Answer – “We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann,C.S.S.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.​

What was established at the Council of Laodicea in 364-AD regarding the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment?

Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364)​

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, the Sabbath, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day (Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day if however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.”---Canon 29, Council of Laodicea, 364 C.E.



Martin Luther was only the beginning of a long process with many steps.

"Oh Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us the day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan at Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the Apostle Paul wrote that he would oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God — the Man of Sin, the son of perdition . . . What is the Temple of God? Is it stones and wood? Did not Paul say, The Temple of God is holy, which Temple ye are? To sit — what is it but to reign, to teach and to judge. Who from the beginning of the church has dared to call himself master of the whole church but the Pope alone. None of the saints, none of the heretics ever uttered so horrible a word of pride." (Luther's Works, Vol. 2. p. 281).

"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments.... Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also."--MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist," pages 71, 72. Founder of the LUTHERAN Church

"The observance of the Lord's day [Sunday] is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the church."-- Augsburg Confession of Faith, quoted in "Catholic Sabbath Manual," Part 2, Chap. 1, Sec.10. LUTHERAN Church.



Just because someone holds a mass on Saturday does not mean they acknowledge the Sabbath. Here is what they say about the Sabbath.

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, the Sabbath, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day (Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day if however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.”---Canon 29, Council of Laodicea, 364 C.E.



We are to worship God seven days a week but we can olny acknowledge and keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of which they do not do.

"Since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent. The custom of Sunday observance rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." (Roman Catholic scholar John A. O'Brien, The Faith of Millions, 1974, p.400,401.)

Official Statement of the Catholic Church ​

“Sunday is founded, not of scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday.” Catholic Record, September 17, 1893.

Official Statement of the Catholic Church ​

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]“Sunday is our mark of authority, the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923”.[/FONT]

The Catholic Church does not view Sunday in the same way that Protestant Sabbatarians (either first-day or seventh-day) view the Sabbath:

The name [Sabbatarians], as appears from its origin, denotes those individuals or parties who are distinguished by some peculiar opinion or practice in regard to the observance of the Sabbath or day of rest. In the first place it is applied to those rigorists who apparently confound the Christian Sunday with the Jewish Sabbath and, not content with the prohibition of servile work, will not allow many ordinary and innocent occupations on the Sunday. This form of Sabbatariansm has chiefly prevailed among Scottish and English Protestants and was at one time very common. Of late years it has sensibly declined; and there is now a tendency towards the opposite extreme of laxity in observing the law of Sunday rest. These Sabbatarians never formed a distinct sect; but were merely a party of rigorists scattered among many and various Protestant denominations. At the same time it is not only in their name that they have something in common with the distinctive sects of Sabbatarians properly so-called, for their initial error in neglecting the distinction between the Christian weekly festival and the Jewish Sabbath is likewise the starting-point of the Sabbatarian sects; and these carry their mistaken principle to its logical conclusion. . . .

In America the Baptists who profess Sabbatarianism are known as Seventh-Day Baptists.

But if the greater number of Sabbatarians have come from the Baptists, the most amazing of them was at one time associated with the Wesleyan Methodists. . . .

The American sect of Seventh-Day Adventists may be added to the list of Sabbatarian communities, among which their large numbers should give them a conspicuous place. . . . (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sabbatarians, Sabbatarianism)​

The Catholic Church lumps Protestant Sunday Sabbatarians and seventh-day Sabbatarians (including SDAs) together as all in error.

 

[Pythons]

Official quote from The Catholic Catechism​

Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer - “Saturday is the Sabbath day.”
Question - “Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?”
Answer – “We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." Peter Geiermann,C.S.S.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.
​

Official quote FROM????????
...The Roman Catechism is "official" K4C so use that if you want to quote official Church teachings.
​

What was established at the Council of Laodicea in 364-AD regarding the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment?

Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364)​

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, the Sabbath, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day (Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day if however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ.”---Canon 29, Council of Laodicea, 364 C.E.

The early Christians "rested" on the Sabbath and met for worship ( Christian Mass ) on Sunday without exception. This "local council' did not outlaw Saturday worship of Christ as God.

If you want to see exactly how the early Church operated on Saturday and Sunday simply show up at an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian Church and participate in their Saturday & Sunday weekly services. The SDA's need to update their apologetic material so that it reflects historic reality.

Martin Luther was only the beginning of a long process with many steps.

Yeah, I know - the SDA anti-Trinity pioneers all claimed that the biggest problem with the reformation was that it did not keep reforming and remove the teaching on the Trinity, the soul and infant baptism. Yeah, I get it.

We are to worship God seven days a week but we can olny acknowledge and keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of which they do not do.

This has been discussed previously and we both know that SDA theology requires that Christ was killed at the Passover in 31 A.D......
...And that the event took place on the day prior to the 7th day Sabbath.
...Problem is that Passover in 31 A.D. was on a Wed.

"Since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent. The custom of Sunday observance rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair." (Roman Catholic scholar John A. O'Brien, The Faith of Millions, 1974, p.400,401.)

Not really given that Scripture records Christians meeting for assembly on SUNDAY for Holy Communion, collection of money AKA Church.

Official Statement of the Catholic Church ​

“Sunday is founded, not of scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday.” Catholic Record, September 17, 1893.

Official Statement of the Catholic Church ​

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]“Sunday is our mark of authority, the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923”.[/FONT]

Of course it is - The New Testament of the Sacred Scripture was "according to the Canon of Faith" therefore the New Testament Scriptures were born out of the Tradition of the early Church.

 

[Alawishis]

Hey I'm new here.

I see a lot of people ganging up on poor k4c. Thought I'd jump in to see if I could, though God's grace, add any light. What I see here is a lot of people coming to this discussion not with open minds, but to the contrary with mind already set in stone. This is not a good way to approach the bible.

It is essential that pray sincerely for God to open our hearts and the Holy Spirit to impart understanding to our minds as we open his word. Let us never forget this is God's word, we must endeavour with all effort possible to truly understand what is said. We are not to use it to support our own ideas, or to support what others have told us is there. We are not to bend the words to make our own lives easier to live. The price to pay for error is too great, the reward for diligence and steadfastness to truth is without parallel.

If you find your words are getting angry when speaking on any subject I suggest it's time to step back. If you feel the urge to use insults to make a point you are no longer doing God's work but that of the enemies.

"for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. " James1:20
"A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control." Prov29:11

Now for my contribution. I saw some mentions of stoning as a punishment for sins. homosexuality was used as an example. They also used to stone adulterers. Sin has not changed. Adultery is still a sin, only we no longer stone sinners. Do not confuse changes in punishments for changes of the definition of sin. God never changes
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" Jame 1:17

The law of God was from creation. This has to be accepted as true unless we think it might have been OK to murder, lie, commit adultery, covet, blaspheme, worship idols, or have other gods, dishonour parents,, or steal in Eden. The only one that we may have questioned is the Sabbath and that is explicitly stated to have been established at creation. So it seams clear that all 10 were there they didn't need to be written down; Adam and Eve knew the character of God. Would anyone argue this point I wonder?

It was only later that it was required to codify the law by writing it down on stone tablets. People were staring to forget what right and wrong were.

So then what is the point of the law?
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.1 John 3:4

Since we know God never changes and sin is all things against God, it's not a great leap to say sin also never changes. What did Jesus say?
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. " Math 5:17-20

Think of it this way. If it were possible to change the definition of sin. If it were possible to change the law, then why not do it when Adam sinned. Would it not be easier for God to just change his decree and make so Adam and Eve's disobedience was not sin. It would have meant Christ need not die. Look at all the death, destruction and pain that countless have endured because of sin. In comparison of all the horrible sins that have been enacted since, Adam and Eve's sin seems pretty tame by mans' standards, why not just let it go...make the change?

I doubt many would argue that minus the 4th commandment the law of God is a solid moral list to live by. Really the only one any has issue with is the Sabbath commandment. If it wasn't there probably all churches would be commandant keepers. So why does God write the Sabbath in the middle of to moral law? Why does he write it in stone with his own hand? Why not included it in the laws Moses wrote on paper. The answer; it doesn't change. When we say today something is "written in stone" what does in mean?

I refer again to Jesus powerful words above:
"one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law"
If you're not sure what a jot or tittle is I suggest you look it up. It's basically the smallest part of a letter or an accent mark, so basically less than one letter. Less than one letter will ever change from the law. Maybe it was not by accident that God wrote it in stone with his own hand. Maybe the old covenant that passed away at the cross was the law of Moses written by Moses' hand on paper. The sacrificial system that atoned for sins and pointed forward to Christ.

The law condemns us, Christ's sacrifice pays the penalty. The basic three elements the law (10 commandments), the penalty(death) the redemption (Jesus Christ).

For those asking for Christ talking about the Sabbath specifically in the NT:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understandThen let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day" Math 24: 15-20

Here Christ is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem about 70 years in the future, and also possibly about end times. Why make mention of the sabbath in the future if it's abolished? Why not say it was abolished somewhere at some time. Jesus kept the sabbath and he should be one and only example, and for me that's good enough.

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Joshua 24:15

 

[k4c]

[/size]

Official quote FROM????????
...The Roman Catechism is "official" K4C so use that if you want to quote official Church teachings.
[/left]
[/size]

The early Christians "rested" on the Sabbath and met for worship ( Christian Mass ) on Sunday without exception. This "local council' did not outlaw Saturday worship of Christ as God.

If you want to see exactly how the early Church operated on Saturday and Sunday simply show up at an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian Church and participate in their Saturday & Sunday weekly services. The SDA's need to update their apologetic material so that it reflects historic reality.

Yeah, I know - the SDA anti-Trinity pioneers all claimed that the biggest problem with the reformation was that it did not keep reforming and remove the teaching on the Trinity, the soul and infant baptism. Yeah, I get it.


[/size]

This has been discussed previously and we both know that SDA theology requires that Christ was killed at the Passover in 31 A.D......
...And that the event took place on the day prior to the 7th day Sabbath.
...Problem is that Passover in 31 A.D. was on a Wed.

[/size]

Not really given that Scripture records Christians meeting for assembly on SUNDAY for Holy Communion, collection of money AKA Church.

Of course it is - The New Testament of the Sacred Scripture was "according to the Canon of Faith" therefore the New Testament Scriptures were born out of the Tradition of the early Church.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

 

[VictorC]

Hey I'm new here.

Welcome!

I see a lot of people ganging up on poor k4c.

It would not be so bad if k4c would answer the Biblical points that are repeatedly presented to him.

The law of God was from creation.

You were doing okay until this line, which contradicts Moses when he recited the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:

2 "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 "The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.​

Moses testified the law mediated through him was unknown prior to his own generation.

This has to be accepted as true unless we think it might have been OK to murder, lie, commit adultery, covet, blaspheme, worship idols, or have other gods, dishonour parents,, or steal in Eden.

It would have been hard to dishonor parents when there was no such thing as a parent, don't you think? And, of course the evil actions you cite were sin, but they were not imputed without the law that defined transgressions. The only transgression Adam was guilty of was eating of the forbidden fruit, a violation of the commandment given to him in Genesis 2:17. Romans 5 comments on this:

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned----
13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

This passage clearly reveals that sin existed before the law did, and that death was the penalty of a transgression that doesn't even exist in the law mediated by Moses.

The only one that we may have questioned is the Sabbath and that is explicitly stated to have been established at creation.

There are any number of threads that document the origin of the sabbath, and differentiate it apart from God's rest that is documented in the Genesis account. Some of the evidence for the sabbath's origin found in Scripture:

• The Genesis account doesn't record a repetitive day observed by any human.
• Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath.
• Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath.
• Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
• Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
• Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

I doubt many would argue that minus the 4th commandment the law of God is a solid moral list to live by. Really the only one any has issue with is the Sabbath commandment. If it wasn't there probably all churches would be commandant keepers.

Romans 7:6-7 states that we have been delivered from the law, and then quotes from the law "You shall not covet" to identify the body of law we have been delivered from. It is the covenant from Mount Sinai, known as the old covenant, given the proper noun "Ten Commandments" by Moses in Deuteronomy 4:13. "You shall not covet" quotes Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21, and is found nowhere else in the law.

And, claiming that churches would be commandment keepers (keeping the old covenant rather than the commandments of God found in the new covenant) would contradict God's disposition of universal disobedience of the law's recipients: "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all". His conclusion is final, has no exemptions, and is presented as a condition to extend His mercy to all, including those who had never received the covenant from Mount Sinai (the Gentiles).

I hope we can converse more, and there are some other members here who would like to welcome your input. Many of the topics you raised have been addressed in the past, as well as in the personal lives of the membership here. This forum is differentiated apart from the "traditional" SDA forum, as most of the contributors here have already concluded they don't agree with the entire fundamental beliefs published by the SDA church. I have personal experience with the beliefs of Adventists, and have an interest in dialogue with them from the perspective of one who has never been in the SDA church.

 

[VictorC]

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Please remember that you have not responded to my query concerning your departure from the sabbaths that Mary and the women with her observed, as shown in the quote you provided from Luke 23:56 a number of times. Remember too that the person who wrote the quote you presented above admitted his carnality and inability to abide by the law in the same epistle, Romans 7:14.

 

[Pythons]

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

The concept the law of Moses is the perpetual law is not correct....
...The Natural or "Moral" law is perpetual & binding.
...Of which the ceremonial aspects of the Sabbath is not a part of.

The following is an example in Scripture of the "Natural law".

And there came a famine in the country; and Abram went down into Egypt, to sojourn there: for the famine was very grievous in the land.

And when he was near to enter into Egypt, he said to Sarai his wife: I know that thou art a beautiful woman:

And that when the Egyptians shall see thee, they will say: She is his wife: and they will kill me, and keep thee.

Say, therefore, I pray thee, that thou art my sister: that I may be well used for thee, and that my soul may live for thy sake.
And when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians saw the woman that she was very beautiful.

And the princes told Pharao, and praised her before him: and the woman was taken into the house of Pharao.

And they used Abram well for her sake. And he had sheep and oxen, and he asses, and menservants and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.

But the Lord scourged Pharao and his house with most grievous stripes for Sarai, Abram's wife.

And Pharao called Abram, and said to him: What is this that thou hast done to me? Why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife.

For what cause didst thou say, she was thy sister, that I might take her to my wife? Now therefore, there is thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
And Pharao gave his men orders concerning Abram: and they led him away, and his wife, and all that he had

Pharao KNEW this was wrong because it is part of the Moral code....
...This is an example of how the Moral or Natural law works.

Man is not commanded by Nature to observe a Gregorian Saturday as a Sabbath like he is commanded by Nature to honor his parents, not to steal, murder, etc.

Therefore the Natural law of God urges man to set aside some time for the observation of religion ( that part of it is Moral )...
...The specific time to observe religious times is 100% ceremonial.
...Thus part of the ceremonial law which was closed out by Christ after he "filled full" the requirements of the ceremonial law.

You are attempting to validate a concept that the ceremonial aspects of a specific portion of the law was perpetual and therefore binding on humanity when nature and logic prove that Saturday is outside of the Moral or Natural law of God.

 

[Alawishis]

Welcome!

Thanks Victor. I look forward to an enlightening discussion.

It would not be so bad if k4c would answer the Biblical points that are repeatedly presented to him.

I think he has addressed many if not all, but the questions and answers tend to get fragmented and separated on a forum. Could you please list out the questions you feel have not been answered in point form and I'll have a go at them.

You were doing okay until this line, which contradicts Moses when he recited the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:

2 "The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 "The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

Moses testified the law mediated through him was unknown prior to his own generation.

No contradiction actually. The Lord did make a covenant with Israel he made it with them 3 days before he wrote the tablets of stone.

“And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
... if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me
... an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” .
So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD."
Exodus 19:3-7

The covenant was made. Moses then went back to the people and after three days they were brought before the mountain. Some time later perhaps a few more days, the timeline is not clear, the ten commandments were delivered.

I'm not denying that the ten commandments were a part of the covenant with Israel. Quite to the contrary it is part of every covenant God has made including the new covenant; part of everything God does in fact. Part of our loving God is obeying him. The commandments reflect God's nature how could they be left out of anything having to do with Him. This is mentioned many times in both the new and old testaments. God wants us to turn away from sin and transgression of the law is sin. That is why this verse, that contradicts what you suggest, is not a contradiction at all.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Genesis 26:5

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 19:17

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Revelation 12:17

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:12

Paul said very clearly:
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” Romans 3:31

God made clear the separation of the old covenant sacrificial law from that of the ten commandments. Moses wrote the sacrificial covenant written on parchment skin it was kept on the side of the arc of the covenant, thus betraying it's temporary nature. The ten commandments as we all know, written by God's hand on stone tablets, were kept inside the arc where the presence of God resided. Stone=permanent parchment=transitory. Did Jesus back this up? Absolutely he did?
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

It would have been hard to dishonor parents when there was no such thing as a parent, don't you think? And, of course the evil actions you cite were sin, but they were not imputed without the law that defined transgressions. The only transgression Adam was guilty of was eating of the forbidden fruit, a violation of the commandment given to him in Genesis 2:17. Romans 5 comments on this:

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned----
13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

This passage clearly reveals that sin existed before the law did, and that death was the penalty of a transgression that doesn't even exist in the law mediated by Moses.

Be careful not to view any one text as definitive of anything. One should never build doctrine on a single passage. Once a person thinks they fully understand one text you can later discover it means something completely different.
“Until the law” means until the detailing of God’s requirements in the various laws given to Israel at Sinai. Sin existed before Sinai. How could it not? Were lying, killing, adultery, and idolatry not sinful until then? Of course they were.

I know the "dishonour parents" point is was meant to be facetious. But, God in fact was the Father of both Adam and Eve. Overlooking that fact the original plan before sin was for our original parents to "be fruitful and multiply". There would have been many generations of children to honour their parents even had they not fallen.

Adam's sin was multifaceted. He had placed something before God, and transgressed the first commandment. He also coveted, though this was clearly Eve's sin I think it had a play in Adam's fall also. I think a case can be made for breaking most of each of the the commandments in the original sin. All sin can be defined in the ten commandments that is it's purpose to show us what sin is.
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4

And yes, it is true the ten commandments did were not codified until Moses, but how can one possibly suggest God's people were unaware of it's precepts? I don't think you are actually saying this. You can't possibly be saying God thought it was OK to murder, lie, blaspheme etc. in the time between Adam and Moses? The concept of "natural law" is an interesting one, if you start another thread on it I'd love to discuss it in depth there. I actually think we are closer on this point than it may appear on the surface. I believe by the "natural law" argument you are making the claim that man knew the law without it being written down, to that I can agree. You really lose me if you start to head down the road to say that pre-Moses man was good by nature. I don't think you were saying that, however. If I misunderstand you please forgive me.

Man was created in God's image and we have to believe he knew God's law and was able to follow it as a result. Unfortunately Adam and Eve fell. Even thought they knew right and wrong they choose to do wrong. I, like you, believe mankind kept that knowledge of right and wrong, but gradually it began to fade. Man may have known right and wrong, by nature after the fall, we are all sinners and cannot in of ourselves do good. With more and more grievous sin coming into the world the light of righteousness in man faded. Adam and Eve were sustained by God, but when they sinned that connection was broken. Like a a fan plugged in and running fast, then suddenly unplugged, the fan continues to spin for a time. Eventually, due to resistance, it will slow and then stop. I think in this same way man gradually forgot right and wrong; maybe not completely but God's law was fading from man then just as it is today. For this reason God codified the moral law at the time of Moses, and set it in stone so it need never be forgotten again.

There are any number of threads that document the origin of the sabbath, and differentiate it apart from God's rest that is documented in the Genesis account. Some of the evidence for the sabbath's origin found in Scripture:

* The Genesis account doesn't record a repetitive day observed by any human.
* Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath.
* Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath.
* Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
* Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
* Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

Are you suggesting God instituted the sabbath at creation and kept it to himself. Where does that come from? Was God really tired after creation that he had to rest or was he being an example to us? Would he put man to work on his first full day of existence when God Himself rested? Does that sound like the God we worship? On the contrary, God created man and I think they shared that first sabbath together walking in Eden. It would have been marvelous, and I can't wait till we can experience it for ourselves.
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:11
How is the seventh day separate from the Sabbath here. Seem to tie it all together since the Sabbath is about creation.

The "My rest" mentioned in Hebrews 4 is on many levels. The "rest", mentioned here is the rest of grace, the grace we receive by following the guide to labour diligently. We find rest in the experience of practising his lessons. Those who refuse to give the Lord faithful service will not find spiritual rest. Properly done work in the Lord makes the rest satisfying and peaceful.

---------------------------------------------------------------
What did Christ tells us:
"The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Mark 2:27 So it was indeed made-for-man.
God said on Sinai:
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
Exodus 20:8
Why the word, "remember"? Had they forgotten it? If this was the first they had heard of it, it would be something like, 'and now I tell you something new', or, 'from this day forth'. The sabbath is a memorial to creation and to God our creator. Why would he bless it make it Holy then keep it a secret?

 

[Alawishis]

Sorry had to break this in two because of length. I hope I didn't miss anything and I hope it's still readable.

Romans 7:6-7 states that we have been delivered from the law, and then quotes from the law "You shall not covet" to identify the body of law we have been delivered from. It is the covenant from Mount Sinai, known as the old covenant, given the proper noun "Ten Commandments" by Moses in Deuteronomy 4:13. "You shall not covet" quotes Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21, and is found nowhere else in the law.

And, claiming that churches would be commandment keepers (keeping the old covenant rather than the commandments of God found in the new covenant) would contradict God's disposition of universal disobedience of the law's recipients: "For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all". His conclusion is final, has no exemptions, and is presented as a condition to extend His mercy to all, including those who had never received the covenant from Mount Sinai (the Gentiles).

I hope we can converse more, and there are some other members here who would like to welcome your input. Many of the topics you raised have been addressed in the past, as well as in the personal lives of the membership here. This forum is differentiated apart from the "traditional" SDA forum, as most of the contributors here have already concluded they don't agree with the entire fundamental beliefs published by the SDA church. I have personal experience with the beliefs of Adventists, and have an interest in dialogue with them from the perspective of one who has never been in the SDA church.

Prase God it's true we are delivered from the law.

You can't be suggesting that being delivered means that it is now OK to murder, lie, blaspheme, commit adultery? Was there ever a time in history where any of these things were accepted in the eyes of God?

Lets not stop at Romans 7:7 if you read the entire chapter it's all explained.

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin ."
Romans 7:7-25

I love these passages, and I thank you for bringing them back to me. Paul laments that he would like to do good but the sin that dwelleth in him keeps coming out. How many of us can relate to this. Read all of this prayerfully. I think you'll find Paul is not throwning out the law. He reinforces that the law is our indicator of sin. "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Rom7:7 Some hang on some select words here without reading the whole chapter and miss out on the meaning. Paul outlines the whole plan of salvation. The law condemns us to death, before we knew of the law we didn't know of sin. But the penalty of sin is death. Praise God for Jesus who paid the price and delivered us from the penalty of sin so that we may live. If the law could have been cast away then Jesus need not have died. Romans is a magnificent book.

<edit : missed some bolding of God's word.

 

[Laodicean]

Alawishis, welcome! I appreciate your cogent, thoughtful, and courteous posts. I agree with you 100 percent.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Prase God it's true we are delivered from the law.

What does this mean? How does this break down in day-to-day life? Are we delivered from all old covenant laws, or only some of them?

You can't be suggesting that being delivered means that it is now OK to murder, lie, blaspheme, commit adultery?

I can't speak for Victor, but I can confirm that the Holy Spirit does not convict me to commit adultery. However, I have heard that He has convicted some to kill. Even so, I faith that the Holy Spirit -- as God -- knows how to convict people according to the mind of God . . . . even in a world in which the old covenant law has been fulfilled.

Are you worried that -- without law -- people will sin? If so, certainly we should notice that -- even with law -- people sinned.

Was there ever a time in history where any of these things were accepted in the eyes of God?

It's a good question. Also, did sin exist before the law was added? Since the law was added 430 years after Abraham, it would seem that sin did exist before the law was added.

Lets not stop at Romans 7:7 if you read the entire chapter it's all explained.

Sounds like a great idea. What is the relationship between the law and death? Is this same idea picked up in 2 Corinthians 3? What is the ministry that brings death and what is the ministry that brings life?

If the law could have been cast away then Jesus need not have died.

If the law could not be fulfilled, then why did Jesus come?

BFA

 

[Aibrean]

So, on the topic of adultery, how would you define it?

 

[VictorC]

Thanks Victor. I look forward to an enlightening discussion.

I think he (k4c) has addressed many if not all, but the questions and answers tend to get fragmented and separated on a forum. Could you please list out the questions you feel have not been answered in point form and I'll have a go at them.

Welcome back!
K4c has a habit of seeing a post directed to him, and his response has often been a single verse from Scripture that addresses nothing that has been written to him. The material he hasn't answered would total a major tome by now.

No contradiction actually. The Lord did make a covenant with Israel he made it with them 3 days before he wrote the tablets of stone.

“And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
... if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me
... an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” .
So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD."
Exodus 19:3-7

The covenant was made. Moses then went back to the people and after three days they were brought before the mountain. Some time later perhaps a few more days, the timeline is not clear, the ten commandments were delivered.

Please remember my response addressed this:

The law of God was from creation.

Drawing out a timeline that is consistent with Scripture affirms that Moses was accurate in his statement that the covenant from Mount Sinai didn't exist before himself. The law mediated in his hands wasn't from creation.

I'm not denying that the ten commandments were a part of the covenant with Israel.

That covenant also included the book of the law, that Moses codified from instructions he received while on Mount Sinai.

Quite to the contrary it is part of every covenant God has made including the new covenant; part of everything God does in fact. Part of our loving God is obeying him. The commandments reflect God's nature how could they be left out of anything having to do with Him. This is mentioned many times in both the new and old testaments. God wants us to turn away from sin and transgression of the law is sin.

I see nothing in Scripture that suggests the created reflects attributes of the Creator. Haven't you ever noticed that God never installed His attribute of forgiveness into the law He created? God forgives sin, but the law knows only atonement to reconcile transgressions.

That is why this verse, that contradicts what you suggest, is not a contradiction at all.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Genesis 26:5

It didn't contradict anything I suggested. Abraham was charged with a covenant of circumcision and packing to leave Ur of the Chaldees. Do you think these commandments have any applicability to your personal life? Of course not.

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 19:17

Spoken during the tenure of the first covenant (as Hebrews refers to the covenant mediated through Moses), and tenets of the first covenant were listed in Matthew 19:18-21. In response to the rich man turning away when asked to give up his belongings, this discourse took place

25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."​

Salvation isn't possible by the actions of man. Righteousness by the law doesn't attain acceptability before God, as Jesus taught in Matthew 5:20. The only righteousness acceptable before a Holy God is His own, imputed to fallen man in His redemption of us.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Revelation 12:17

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:12

John recorded Revelation, and he also recorded the commandments of God:

1 John 3:23
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.​

John does not call attention to the covenant God delivered us from, and took away according to Hebrews 10:9.

Paul said very clearly:
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” Romans 3:31

Had you continued in the context this verse appears in, you would have seen what the law established by the author was:

Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."​

This is a quote from Genesis 15:6, showing that the law established was the Genesis record, which is part of the law received through Moses. It does not establish the covenant from Mount Sinai. This same author instructed us to cast off the covenant from Mount Sinai in Galatians 4:21-31, and he didn't contradict himself.

God made clear the separation of the old covenant sacrificial law from that of the ten commandments.

To the contrary, God kept the law together as one package that was indivisible.

Numbers 15
15 `One ordinance shall be for you of the assembly and for the stranger who dwells with you, an ordinance forever throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
16 `One law and one custom shall be for you and for the stranger who dwells with you.'"​

Paul makes the same point when he charges compliance to the entire book of the law in Galatians 3:10.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."​

The law charges the recipients with the entire 613 mitzvot it contains, and one infraction violates the entire covenant, a point raised in Galatians 5:3.

2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.​

Moses wrote the sacrificial covenant written on parchment skin it was kept on the side of the arc of the covenant, thus betraying it's temporary nature. The ten commandments as we all know, written by God's hand on stone tablets, were kept inside the arc where the presence of God resided. Stone=permanent parchment=transitory. Did Jesus back this up? Absolutely he did?
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18

Are you suggesting Christ's propitiation didn't fulfill the law as He promised He would? In the second part of your post you accepted our deliverance from the Ten Commandments as described in Romans 7:6-7, and here you contend He didn't. The stone you suggest is "permanent" is addressed in 2 Corinthians 3, and was anything but permanent.

Be careful not to view any one text as definitive of anything. One should never build doctrine on a single passage.

I take it you don't accept Romans 5:12-14's message that sin existed before the law did, and also that sin isn't imputed in the absence of the law. It is this imputation that eludes your attention, the reason that God delivered us from the law ordained in the first covenant: "because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).

I'm going to simplify this response, as much added after this point speculates on compliance in deference to God's disposition that no one is compliant with the first covenant (see Romans 11:32).

Adam's sin was multifaceted. He had placed something before God, and transgressed the first commandment.

False.
"death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam" (Romans 5:14). Adam's sole transgression was the commandment given in Genesis 2:17, which you aren't going to find anywhere codified in the covenant law mediated through Moses.

Are you suggesting God instituted the sabbath at creation and kept it to himself?

Not at all - as I provided evidence to support, there was no repetitive sabbath applicable to mankind in the creation account. That included how Exodus 20:11 is structured. Mark 2:27 shows us that the sabbath was "made for man", indicating it was not God's rest recorded in the Genesis account. The sabbath was a component of law, and shared its origin with the manna experience - within the lifetime of Moses, as he testified concerning all the law's origin.

The "My rest" mentioned in Hebrews 4 is on many levels.

That is speculation in deference to the narrative. God called it His rest, that remained a promise those charged with the sabbath had yet to attain (Hebrews 4:1). Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2, showing again the origin of God's rest. That is the rest we have entered: "we who have believed do enter that rest", the reality that was attained by faith in Christ our Redeemer, and we have no use for the sabbath that was cast as a shadow of that reality (Colossians 2:16-17).

 

[VictorC]

Sorry had to break this in two because of length. I hope I didn't miss anything and I hope it's still readable.

This won't take long.

Praise God it's true we are delivered from the law.
....
...
..
.
If the law could have been cast away then Jesus need not have died.

Oh, my!
Removing a large portion of your post's body reveals that you're contending against your own acknowledgement of Scripture's conclusion that we have been delivered from the law, identified in the passage as the Ten Commandments. It also reveals a certain confusion about the reason there is a new covenant based on God's adoption, and imputed righteousness based on His performance instead of our feeble failure to perform.

The reason Jesus died, in a concise nutshell:

Hebrews 9
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 ¶ And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.​

This was the reason Jesus died, and without the death of the Testator, there is no such thing as a new covenant, no redemption of transgressions that impute sin to us, and no salvation.

 

[Soon144k]

There is no 'new' Covenant, there is no 'old' Covenant; there is only the Covenant, eternal and unchanging. Without the Covenant/10 Commandments (Deut.4:13) there can be no Kingdom of Heaven. Without a Kingdom of Heaven (Dan.2:44,45) God cannot do battle with the kingdom of the world. Without this battle and the Kingdom of Heaven defeating the kingdom of the world there can be no 7th Trumpet wherein the 'kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ' (Rev.11:15,19).

Saying that the Covenant has somehow changed between the Old Testament and the New Testament shows a distinct lack of understanding of the purpose and operation of the Covenant. God is the same yesterday, today and forever; and so is HIS Covenant.

 

[Sophia7]

There is no 'new' Covenant, there is no 'old' Covenant; there is only the Covenant, eternal and unchanging. Without the Covenant/10 Commandments (Deut.4:13) there can be no Kingdom of Heaven. Without a Kingdom of Heaven (Dan.2:44,45) God cannot do battle with the kingdom of the world. Without this battle and the Kingdom of Heaven defeating the kingdom of the world there can be no 7th Trumpet wherein the 'kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ' (Rev.11:15,19).

Saying that the Covenant has somehow changed between the Old Testament and the New Testament shows a distinct lack of understanding of the purpose and operation of the Covenant. God is the same yesterday, today and forever; and so is HIS Covenant.

You never answered my question about whether you reject the book of Acts as Scripture. Do you also reject the book of Hebrews?

 

[Alawishis]

What does this mean? How does this break down in day-to-day life? Are we delivered from all old covenant laws, or only some of them?



I can't speak for Victor, but I can confirm that the Holy Spirit does not convict me to commit adultery. However, I have heard that He has convicted some to kill. Even so, I faith that the Holy Spirit -- as God -- knows how to convict people according to the mind of God . . . . even in a world in which the old covenant law has been fulfilled.

Are you worried that -- without law -- people will sin? If so, certainly we should notice that -- even with law -- people sinned.



It's a good question. Also, did sin exist before the law was added? Since the law was added 430 years after Abraham, it would seem that sin did exist before the law was added.



Sounds like a great idea. What is the relationship between the law and death? Is this same idea picked up in 2 Corinthians 3? What is the ministry that brings death and what is the ministry that brings life?



If the law could not be fulfilled, then why did Jesus come?

BFA

Ah OK. Well, being delivered from the law is not the same as destroying it. Let me give an example.

Let say a man gets himself in a load of trouble. In the course of events he winds up committing a serious crime. For the crime he has committed in his country there is a death penalty. The penalty is fair because the crime he has committed is grievous. He is condemned by the law in his country and found guilty and sentenced to death. The penalty must be paid as the crime has been committed.

Now, lets also say that through a technicality in the law his Father is able to take the the penalty for his child. The penalty will be paid but not by the man who committed the crime but by his father. The father is executed and his child goes free, pardoned because the penalty has been paid. The law is still valid if the man goes out again and commits this crime or another he will still be convicted even though he has been pardoned for his previous record.

All this is an obvious fanciful parable, but that's allowed in parables. Please bear with me. There is a point where the parallel breaks down. I know of no federal law that would allow a death penalty to be transferred from one person to another. If the penalty was just a fine then I suppose other person can pay it. Maybe I should have used a fine and not death for my example. The point of this is, being pardoned and delivered from the penalty of the law, does not destroy the law.

The law cannot change, and the penalty must be paid the penalty of sin is death. God laid out the law showing us what sin is. If we destroy the law then all those guilty of transgression are no longer in violation and are no longer under the penalty. No one then need die to pay the penalty for a law that does not exist.
It's precisely because the law could not change that Christ had to come here and pay the penalty. He has delivered us from the law not by destroying it, but by paying the price of sin. He died for us that we might live. Praise God !

If that's not good enough, to take part of this pardon all we have to do is ask, and we are forgiven. No matter how many times we sin no matter how many times we fall as long as we sincerely beg forgiveness it will be given us.

I hope that sheds some light.