What particular Church can claim the most martyrs?

[☦Marius☦]

I don't think so. Sometimes God makes an example and kills Ananias and Sapphira, or the like. We shouild learn from it, but God does not kill every hypocrite in the church ...

But this is going to be off-topic, I just read a warning me being to much off-topic, so I won't discuss more of it here.

I also assume you are talking about the book "the faith of the Russian Evangelicals"

I see no mention of execution of evangelicals, only limiting of rights.

 

[timothyu]

The govt of Rome was pagan until Constantine.

Oh, yes agreed, but the Gentile church was being dominated by Roman citizens who confused the traditions of man with the new ways of the Kingdom. While the Jewish church and other gentile churches focussed on the congregants, the Romans focused on building the hierarchy. It was what they had always done and missed the point of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

 

[timothyu]

The question is: What qualifies one to the title "martyr"?

Is it sufficient to be a member of a christian church - which means that every murder executed who happens to be a church member is called a martyr? We need a stronger criteria.

Can someone called a martyr who was killed because of political actions that do not have much do to with the gospel (or to put it into other words: he would likewise been killed if he were no Christian)?

Exactly. So there are two kinds of martyrs. Ones who die for the will of God and ones who die for their religious institution.

 

[timothyu]

It was lost, because the gentile converts outnumbered the Judaeo-Christians. And contrary to what Paul says in Rom 11:17-24, the gentile Christians began to despise heir Jewish brethren, and marginalized them, in the end they even began to suppress and persecute them. Just look on the Nicean decree that Easter should not be celebrated in the Passover week, and you see how wide the Church strolled astray from Jesus and His people.

Agreed

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Oh, yes agreed, but the Gentile church was being dominated by Roman citizens who confused the traditions of man with the new ways of the Kingdom. While the Jewish church and other gentile churches focussed on the congregants, the Romans focused on building the hierarchy. It was what they had always done and missed the point of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Much of the early Church was made up of Jews and Greeks and some Arabs(in the Eastern Churches). Actual Roman citizens came a bit later.

 

[timothyu]

Ukraine as a state has only existed for a few years (unless you go all the way back to the medieval times).

So once again the Ukraine is to be divided up like a piece of cake to suit the religious and political will of others? Will Austria reabsorb the other half?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Just look on the Nicean decree that Easter should not be celebrated in the Passover week, and you see how wide the Church strolled astray from Jesus and His people.

Where does it say that?

 

[timothyu]

Much of the early Church was made up of Jews and Greeks and some Arabs(in the Eastern Churches). Actual Roman citizens came a bit later.

Regardless, the church was eventually built with the focus on the hierarchy rather than the congregation. Typical will of man and man's idea of kingdom, while God's idea of kingdom is the reverse..

 

[☦Marius☦]

Regardless, the church was eventually built with the focus on the hierarchy rather than the congregation. Typical will of man and man's idea of kingdom, while God's idea of kingdom is the reverse..

"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

"Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation. Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. ..."

"For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil."

"Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching."

"We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves."

 

[☦Marius☦]

In strongly doubt that anyone of the old oriental churches, whether Nestorian, Miaphysite or whatever else, will do so.
There are individuals who do so, in the western churches, in the EO and no doubt in the other oriental churches.

Why are only the Nestorian and Miaphysites excluded from this? Not trying to argue but am trying to figure out your reasoning. Churches in the orient had alot more exposure to early gnosticism and manichean heresys. Heck Nestorians had a whole subgroup of gnostic teachings.

 

[timothyu]

Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. ..."

Speaking from the Kingdom side of the fence... The worldly see that as self justification of partaking in the ways of man. Those of the Kingdom saw it as being in the world, not of it. No physical rebellion. Let the institutions enjoy their immediate rewards while they can as that is all they get. So said Jesus.

 

[helmut]

I also assume you are talking about the book "the faith of the Russian Evangelicals"

Never heard of that book.

It was the book about persecution in Russia resp. USSR, from the 19th century to the times of Kosygin (when the book was written).

I see no mention of execution of evangelicals

You mean they all survived beating and Siberian exile?

During USSR times, there were definitely evangelicals martyred to death.

 

[helmut]

Exactly. So there are two kinds of martyrs. Ones who die for the will of God and ones who die for their religious institution.

That was not the line drawn by me.

Jesus founded the Church, and it is manifest in "institutions". In the NT you see not only the one "standing in front" (the phrase Paul uses in some of his letters, also named as elders (prebuteroi) or overseers (episkopio), we have servants (diaskonoi) and other "gifts" mentioned. The Church is not an heap of individuals, it is a body with different function of its members, there it is manifested in institutions.
Whether an institution (denomination, local church, ...) is really part of the body of Christ, or rather like a lamp kicked off its place by Jesus (Rev 2:5!) or even like a wife getting untrue to her fiancée (or even a harlot who "shares bed" with every mighty power on earth, Rev 17), this cannot be decided by looking whether she is gentile or Jewish.

 

[helmut]

Much of the early Church was made up of Jews and Greeks and some Arabs(in the Eastern Churches). Actual Roman citizens came a bit later.

Hmm, "actual Roman citizens" like Paul, Barnabas, Cornelius, maybe John Mark, and so on came a bit later than Arabs? Can you please tell me where you find Arab Christians in the NT?

 

[helmut]

Where does it say that?

You are right. I mixed things up. Nicaea decided to compute the date of Easter independent from the Jewish Passover. It was Constantine who wrote a letter in which he explained the decision by rejecting a combination of Passover and Easter, including the statement "Therefore, we ought to have nothing in common with the odious people of the Jews" (my translation from the German translation, any corrections welcome).
It was the practice, i.e. the errors in the Jewish and Christians computations, which caused Passover and Easter to fell apart. With the more precise Gregorian calendar, they coincide sometimes.

 

[helmut]

Why are only the Nestorian and Miaphysites excluded from this?

I didn't say that. You mentioned EO churches and said they did not, I mentioned Nestorian and Miaphysites "or whatever else".
As to Gnostic influence, you will find individuals who were influenced in any church. As to the west, I remember Meister Eckhart, a German mystic.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Never heard of that book.

It was the book about persecution in Russia resp. USSR, from the 19th century to the times of Kosygin (when the book was written).


You mean they all survived beating and Siberian exile?

During USSR times, there were definitely evangelicals martyred to death.

I'm not disputing USSR times, since that is what the entire OP was about.

Lol people live in Siberia you know?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Hmm, "actual Roman citizens" like Paul, Barnabas, Cornelius, maybe John Mark, and so on came a bit later than Arabs? Can you please tell me where you find Arab Christians in the NT?

You misunderstood what I said. Yes Paul was a Roman citizen, but he was a Jew. My point was actual Romans IN Rome. There were Arabs throughout the region.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You are right. I mixed things up. Nicaea decided to compute the date of Easter independent from the Jewish Passover. It was Constantine who wrote a letter in which he explained the decision by rejecting a combination of Passover and Easter, including the statement "Therefore, we ought to have nothing in common with the odious people of the Jews" (my translation from the German translation, any corrections welcome).
It was the practice, i.e. the errors in the Jewish and Christians computations, which caused Passover and Easter to fell apart. With the more precise Gregorian calendar, they coincide sometimes.

You can NOT have Passover (the 14th) and the resurrection on the same day...in the East it is called Pascha....not easter.

 

[timothyu]

this cannot be decided by looking whether she is gentile or Jewish.

True. Jesus' church is defined whether it serves the people not the leaders.