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What part of 'ALL' cannot be understood?

selfinflikted

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seebs said:
No, no, no.

I don't want a list.

I want a way that, without access to a "cheat sheet", I can tell whether a given law is ceremonial or moral.

I want a pattern, not a set of pat answers. I want a moral principle I can live by, not a huge set of individual laws, each totally unrelated to the others. I'm a gentile Christian; I don't have to do mitzvah, and I don't see any reason to live by the Mosaic Law.

Of course, I am bound by the law Christ gave, so I have to love God and love my neighbor... But that leaves me with no reason to go combing through Leviticus reading passages there, because all the moral advice I need can be found in the Gospels.

Is there some reason for which the words of Jesus are not enough?



I currently think that homosexuality is a reproductive disorder which is in and of itself free of moral issues, being a purely biological construct. I have not yet found a genuinely compelling argument either way on the morality of gay sex as a general category.

If you would like to present this argument, I have a standing offer for a serious formal debate on the issue. I have been trying to get a solid argument on it for four years now.

However, primarily, my objection is to the use of Leviticus in a way that, so far as I can tell, does not permit a consistent interpretive framework.

I cannot see an obvious reason for which I should accept the Levitical condemnation of one thing, while ignoring the Levitical condemnation of another. I would like to see a description of this, preferably in the words of a participant here.

As an example, I have a friend who is firmly convinced that the Levitical injunction against tattoos still applies. Does it?

Seebs, the problem with your search for a good solid argument on this issue is simple, and we both know what it is. The bible never comes out and says "Homosexuality is a sin." because the term did not exist then. So we stretch the meaning of things and speculate the the best of our ability to try to make obviously VAGUE passages line up with our own personal beliefs. This is wrong. We can postulate on what we think god wants, or what he means but we will never know because he's obviously not going to clarify. It will be an endless debate, albeit a fun one, but we will never reach a universal truth on the matter. I'm fine with that, because frankly I don't care what bible thumpers believe (and i'm not generalising you here, because I know better from your previous posts that you actually like to think critically) as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on me, which is unfortunately exactly what is happening with this topic :(
 
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tocis

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B®ent said:
Is 2 Timothy 3:16 a complete lie? If so, why do you even bother reading a Bible?

Maybe some will think this is off-topic...

...about the implied link between "liberal" and "opposed to biblical literalism".
By the standards of my German homeland, I'm more a conservative than what passes as a "liberal" over here. Yet even back in my christian days I wouldn't have condemned homosexuals et al just because an old book says so. There is some logic in that condemnation considering the situation back then when the book got written, that much is true... but times have changed.

So what am I, according to your standards? Am I a "tree-hugging liberal", or am I one of the "right-wing *******s" as my fellow Asatruar sometimes get called by "good christians"?
 
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RealityCheck, i'm still finding your name ironic. Are you honestly concerned with the very obscure laws found in Leviticus? Isn't it more pressing to understand that commonsense immorality and..homosexuality - in this topic, is unrighteous? We have established why we don't 'follow' all of the laws in Leviticus; because Jesus came to fulfill the law. There's no clean-cut way to determine what's most applicable to the Levites and least applicable for us. Intelligent discernment should lay confusion at rest.

Polycarp, you should listen to this too. Also be reminded that we were discussing homosexuality and Leviticus is not the only source of God's opposing perspective. To imply that you're unable to accept this because you haven't understood the whole of the book, is very unproductive. You are like the lawyer in Matthew 22:35-40, who tempted Jesus when he said: "...which is the great commandment in the law?" As someone has pointed out, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind" and "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." All the law and the prophets are realised with this.
 
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selfinflikted

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Middlemoor said:
RealityCheck, i'm still finding your name ironic. Are you honestly concerned with the very obscure laws found in Leviticus? Isn't it more pressing to understand that commonsense immorality and..homosexuality - in this topic, is unrighteous? We have established why we don't 'follow' all of the laws in Leviticus; because Jesus came to fulfill the law. There's no clean-cut way to determine what's most applicable to the Levites and least applicable for us. Intelligent discernment should lay confusion at rest.

Polycarp, you should listen to this too. Also be reminded that we were discussing homosexuality and Leviticus is not the only source of God's opposing perspective. To imply that you're unable to accept this because you haven't understood the whole of the book, is very unproductive. You are like the lawyer in Matthew 22:35-40, who tempted Jesus when he said: "...which is the great commandment in the law?" As someone has pointed out, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind" and "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." All the law and the prophets are realised with this.

lol I thought you were being serious until you said "intelligent discernment" haha you * almost * got me ;)
 
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RealityCheck

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Middlemoor said:
RealityCheck, i'm still finding your name ironic. Are you honestly concerned with the very obscure laws found in Leviticus? Isn't it more pressing to understand that commonsense immorality and..homosexuality - in this topic, is unrighteous? We have established why we don't 'follow' all of the laws in Leviticus; because Jesus came to fulfill the law. There's no clean-cut way to determine what's most applicable to the Levites and least applicable for us. Intelligent discernment should lay confusion at rest.


Ah... what I'm finding ironic is the conflicts in your beliefs and statements.

You refer to "obscure laws in Leviticus." But how can anything in "God's Word" be obscure? How could any part of it be considered obscure if you belive that the whole of the Bible is, as stated in Timothy, inspired and God-breathed and useful for instruction, correction, and reproof?

How, in other words, could any part of the Word of God be considered obscure? Only the words and laws of HUMANS could be considered obscure.


Then too, there's your statement that "intelligent discernment" should tell us where the division lies between what should or should not apply to us. But is not applying that principle itself contrary to Biblical instruction?

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 - 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

Psalm 118: 8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in man.
9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in princes.

Proverbs 3: 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

Proverbs 28: 26 He who trusts in himself is a fool,
but he who walks in wisdom is kept safe.



And as for whether or not Jesus fulfilled all of the law or part or only certain laws and not others:

Colossians 2:


13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b] God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
 
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RealityCheck, obscurity is how it appears to us, not to God. We have discerning spirits. If you are studying anything in the Bible you should do it with prayer and guidance of the spirit. Suffice to say, that would be "intelligent." I can give you no further advice than to say that the only way to understand Leviticus, or the Bible in general, is to study it. You can't just ask for a special formula.
 
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RealityCheck

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Finally, I would like to point out to Middlemoor that besides appealing to the Bible as reason to consider homosexuality to be "wrong" in some way, he is now also appealing to "common sense morality" and our own "intelligent discernment."

Would Middlemoor then agree that other authorities ASIDE FROM THE BIBLE are to be given the same weight as the Bible itself?
 
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selfinflikted

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Middlemoor said:
RealityCheck, obscurity is how it appears to us, not to God. We have discerning spirits. If you are studying anything in the Bible you should do it with prayer and guidance of the spirit. Suffice to say, that would be "intelligent." I can give you no further advice than to say that the only way to understand Leviticus, or the Bible in general, is to study it. You can't just ask for a special formula.
I can't argue with that, now can I?
 
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RealityCheck

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Middlemoor said:
RealityCheck, obscurity is how it appears to us, not to God. We have discerning spirits. If you are studying anything in the Bible you should do it with prayer and guidance of the spirit. Suffice to say, that would be "intelligent." I can give you no further advice than to say that the only way to understand Leviticus, or the Bible in general, is to study it. You can't just ask for a special formula.

Then if the both of us read the same part of the same Bible, and I say "It means THIS" and you say "No it means THAT", how do we know which is right and which is wrong, or if both are wrong? You can claim divine guidance as much as I can.
 
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I don't "appeal" to the Bible for arguements against homosexuality. Commonsense morality is a reference to those well-known issues (theft, deceit). "Intelligent discernment" means to look at the Bible properly and carefully. The only purpose of that reply is to divert attention from the real discussion:

Proverbs 21:9, It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop, than to share a house with a contentious woman.

Most people don't have too much of a problem with prayerfully studying the Bible. If you insist on considering it a logical conundrum, good luck.
 
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selfinflikted

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Middlemoor said:
Oh, okay. That's sad to hear. Remember that God loves you, no matter what went wrong back then in your church experience.

Why is that sad to hear? Don't feel sorry for me, please. I'm liberated, and never happier.

:clap:
 
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vajradhara

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ChristianCenturion said:
vajradhara,

But I don't advocate that a Jew break the command you referenced.

Namaste ChristianCenturion,

thank you for the post.

i'm a bit unclear on this response.

you asked:

"Can you show where that is shown to not only apply to Jews but to Gentiles like the sexual immorality is?"

to which i responded:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

this is from the Christian New Testament and, as such, applies directly to Christians. the reference to the Law is a reference to the Hewbrew Covenant with G!D and, thus, this is applicable to both Jew and Gentile.

i am not suggesting that you advocated Jews break the Law. my point is that the Law is still ineffect, unless you would like to argue that heaven and the earth have passed.

that would, of course, make such a discussion betwixt us rather difficult.

metta,

~v
 
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steen

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Middlemoor said:
I don't "appeal" to the Bible for arguements against homosexuality. Commonsense morality is a reference to those well-known issues (theft, deceit).
But then, there is nothing in "commonsense morality" that speaks against homosexuality.
 
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