What? No Josephology?!?!?

[LivingWordUnity]

you have to think Exponentially.

There are 22 generations listed (unless I miscounted, but accuracy isn't very important, for sake of simplicity, lets say 20.)

Each generation, you can average a number of male children born. (lets keep it small and say two, but it was likely far more.)

so, after the first generation, you'd have 2 male children. The next (2 male chlidren having 2 male children) so generation 2 would have 4 "successors to the throne."

20 generations, 2 children each, ballpark figure is 1,048,576 decendants from David that were Male.

The thought of Joseph as some secret king is a WILD supposition.

Do you also believe that Jesus being the heir to the throne of King David is a "wild supposition"? Because that would be going against 2,000 years of Christian teaching about Jesus.

 

[prodromos]

Please get to the point. Are you denying that Jesus was the heir to the throne of David?

There were many, many heirs to the throne of David, but that is only one of the many criteria the Messiah had to fulfill. None of the other heirs were born of a virgin and most importantly, none of the other heirs were the Son of God.

 

[prodromos]

Please get to the point. Are you denying that Jesus was the heir to the throne of David?

Whence also it must be said, as a consequence, that the father and other ancestors of Joseph were first-born, or at least eldest surviving sons of their fathers, so that the right of reigning devolved upon them.

Again, according to the article which YOU posted from ewtn, the right of reigning devolved upon the first born or eldest surviving son, so according to the article which YOU posted, Jesus could not have inherited that right as Joseph had older sons who were still alive. Your issue is not with me but with the article which YOU posted!

 

[Uphill Battle]

Do you also believe that Jesus being the heir to the throne of King David is a "wild supposition"? Because that would be going against 2,000 years of Christian teaching about Jesus.

no. I am not denying Christ his right to the throne as Messiah.

Prodromos answered basically what I was going to, so I'll save my fingers the wear and tear.

 

[Oblio]

and your canons are?...funny thing is, with all the statements you made about this issue, I never once seen a bible quotation accompany it.

I've made at least one, and since we are not bound by your personal interpretation of the entirety of Scripture and the Gospel, I don't need to.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Again, according to the article which YOU posted from ewtn, the right of reigning devolved upon the first born or eldest surviving son, so according to the article which YOU posted, Jesus could not have inherited that right as Joseph had older sons who were still alive. Your issue is not with me but with the article which YOU posted!

Forget about the EWTN quote for a minute.

I want to know what YOU believe about who Jesus is.

Do YOU believe that Jesus was in line with the throne of King David? Do YOU believe that Jesus was and is the King of the Jews and that His kingdom lasts forever?

 

[sunlover1]

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right." Eph 6:1

Who would you say is the 'head' of the child in this passage? Why would God command children to obey their parents if only Christ was their head?

Should I cease being my childs 'head' unto Christ, until such as time as she finds another 'head' [husband], because you say so?

Hey tyndale.

In the OT, the father was the head of his unmarried
girls.
When my daughter's fiance asked to marry her, I
withheld my blessing til my ex (her dad) had
agreed to the union.
Actually he wouldn't and the guy gave her the ring
anyhow, and I then gave my blessing because
engagement wasn't to be broken. (it worked out
famously btw)
I KNOW we're not OT Christians.

Just helps me to make godly choices and I believed
her father was her covering.

 

[prodromos]

Forget about the EWTN quote for a minute.

I can fully appreciate you wanting to do that

I want to know what YOU believe about who Jesus is.

Do YOU believe that Jesus was in line with the throne of King David? Do YOU believe that Jesus was and is the King of the Jews and that His kingdom lasts forever?

Luke 1:31-33

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.​

There were many descendants of David who had a claim to the throne besides Jesus, but God His Father gave the throne to Him.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

There were many descendants of David who had a claim to the throne besides Jesus, but God His Father gave the throne to Him.

That makes no sense at all. Only one king at a time can be the true rightful king.

Plus, you can't say who these supposed "many descendants of David who had a claim to the throne" are.

If Jesus was the true rightful heir to the throne of King David, then his father, Joseph would be too because Jesus would have inherited it through his father Joseph.

That's why the genealogy shows the kingship going from King David to Joseph and from Joseph to Jesus.

I posted where it says this in the Bible, but you chose to ignore what it says in the Bible in favor of your personal opinion which contradicts the Bible.

I will remind you and Uphill Battle again of what the Bible says. If you disagree then you are disagreeing with the word of God.

Matthew Chapter 1

1: The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2: Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3: and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram,
4: and Ram the father of Ammin'adab, and Ammin'adab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5: and Salmon the father of Bo'az by Rahab, and Bo'az the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse,
6: and Jesse the father of David the king. And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uri'ah,
7: and Solomon the father of Rehobo'am, and Rehobo'am the father of Abi'jah, and Abi'jah the father of Asa,
8: and Asa the father of Jehosh'aphat, and Jehosh'aphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzzi'ah,
9: and Uzzi'ah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezeki'ah,
10: and Hezeki'ah the father of Manas'seh, and Manas'seh the father of Amos, and Amos the father of Josi'ah,
11: and Josi'ah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.
12: And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoni'ah was the father of She-al'ti-el, and She-al'ti-el the father of Zerub'babel,
13: and Zerub'babel the father of Abi'ud, and Abi'ud the father of Eli'akim, and Eli'akim the father of Azor,
14: and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eli'ud,
15: and Eli'ud the father of Elea'zar, and Elea'zar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob,
16: and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

 

[prodromos]

If Jesus was the true rightful heir to the throne of King David, then his father, Joseph would be too because Jesus would have inherited it through his father Joseph.

That's why the genealogy shows the kingship going from King David to Joseph and from Joseph to Jesus.

I posted where it says this in the Bible, but you chose to ignore what it says in the Bible in favor of your personal opinion which contradicts the Bible.

If what you say is true then the kingship falls to Joseph's eldest son, which out of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon would probably be James, as it is likely that the eldest would be referenced first. Thus it ought to be becoming clear to you that the genealogy is only to show that Jesus is a descendant of David which is a fulfillment of prophecy regarding the Messiah.
Solomon had older brothers surviving their father David, yet the throne went to him and I am pretty sure there were other times when the throne passed over an older brother throughout Israel's history. Thus scripture shows as we have been stating that each and every male descendant of David is a rightful heir to the throne. It is God who chooses which of them will ascend to the throne each generation.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

If what you say is true then the kingship falls to Joseph's eldest son, which out of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon would probably be James, as it is likely that the eldest would be referenced first. Thus it ought to be becoming clear to you that the genealogy is only to show that Jesus is a descendant of David which is a fulfillment of prophecy regarding the Messiah.

Solomon had older brothers surviving their father David, yet the throne went to him and I am pretty sure there were other times when the throne passed over an older brother throughout Israel's history. Thus scripture shows as we have been stating that each and every male descendant of David is a rightful heir to the throne. It is God who chooses which of them will ascend to the throne each generation.

The genealogy clearly includes Joseph in the line from King David. That is my point. Whether or not Joseph was widowed and had other children from before he met the Blessed Virgin Mary depends on which tradition about him you subscribe to.

But even if he was an old widower with children from a woman before the Blessed Virgin Mary, then I can see how this would be like the situation with Abraham and Sarah. Abraham had Ismael first with Hagar, but Isaac was called Abraham's only son.

Even though Isaac wasn't the first born, he was the one that inherited the blessing as the chosen one.

If Joseph would not have been the rightful king, then Jesus would not have been in line for it.

But we know from the genealogy given in Chapter 1 of Matthew that the kingship went down from King David, King Solomon, and other kings until Jesus inherited it from his father Joseph.

 

[prodromos]

If Joseph would not have been the rightful king, then Jesus would not have been in line for it.

Where is your proof of this? Where are the Church Fathers making this claim? You have not demonstrated this to be the case at all.

 

[Rick Otto]

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Did Jesus have any brothers and/or sisters?[/FONT]​

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Four men--James, Joses, Simon, & Judas--are mentioned [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]as the brothers of Jesus. (See Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3.)[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]There has been much discussion through the centuries as to[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]the exact relationship of these men to Jesus. Three[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]principal views have been advanced: [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica](1) that they were Jesus' actual brothers, that is, half brothers,[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]sons of Joseph & Mary (and therefore younger than Jesus); [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica](2) that they were His stepbrothers, that is, children of Joseph[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]by a previous marriage (and thus all older than He and not[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]His blood relatives at all); [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica](3) that they were the cousins of Jesus on the mother's side, according to some, or on Joseph's side,[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]according to others. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Those who hold the first view argue that this is the most [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]natural way to understand[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]the various references to these [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]brothers; also that this is the most obvious intent of[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Those who hold the second view argue that Oriental family ethics would not permit younger brothers[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]to taunt or otherwise meddle [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]with an older brother as Jesus' brothers taunted Him (Mark3:31; John 7:3-4).[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]They point out further that the fact that Jesus left His [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]mother in the care of the apostle John (John 19:26-27) rather[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]than with one of His brothers strongly implies that [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Mary had no other children.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]The view that these brothers were the cousins of Jesus on[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Joseph's side is based on pure conjecture. That they were[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]cousins on Mary's side is based on the unproved identity of "Mary,[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]the wife of Cleophus" with Mary's sister (John19:25; Mark15:40),[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]& on the unproved identity of "Clopas" with Alphaeus (Mark3:18). [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] Jesus' brothers are mentioned as accompanying Jesus & His[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]mother to Capernaum after the marriage at Cana (John 2:12).[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Later Mary and these brothers are recorded as seeking an[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]audience with Jesus (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35;[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Luke 8:19-21). Toward the end of Jesus' ministry, His[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]brethren are mentioned as urging Jesus to prove His[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Messiahship, which they themselves doubted (John 7:3-5).[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]That they were later converted is clear, for they are described[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]in Acts as uniting with the disciples and others in "prayer and supplication" prior to[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Pentecost (Acts 1:13-14).[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] Paul implies that [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]they were all married (1 Corinthians 9:5). [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Many commentators hold that the author of the epistle of Jude, [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]who identifies himself[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]as the "brother of James," was one of these brothers (Jude 1).[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] It is also generally [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]believed that the leader [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]of the church at Jerusalem was James,[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]the Lord's brother [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica](Acts 12:17; 15:13). This seems to be confirmed by Paul's[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]reference to his visit to Jerusalem, in which he states that[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]he saw only Peter, and "James, the Lord's brother" [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica](Galatians 1:18-19). [/FONT]
http://en.bibleinfo.com/old/H1/bil00038.htm

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Where is your proof of this? Where are the Church Fathers making this claim? You have not demonstrated this to be the case at all.

Here is my proof. It's directly from the Bible. This is a list of Kings from King David to Joseph to Jesus.

Matthew Chapter 1
1: The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2: Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3: and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram,
4: and Ram the father of Ammin'adab, and Ammin'adab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5: and Salmon the father of Bo'az by Rahab, and Bo'az the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse,
6: and Jesse the father of David the king. And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uri'ah,
7: and Solomon the father of Rehobo'am, and Rehobo'am the father of Abi'jah, and Abi'jah the father of Asa,
8: and Asa the father of Jehosh'aphat, and Jehosh'aphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzzi'ah,
9: and Uzzi'ah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezeki'ah,
10: and Hezeki'ah the father of Manas'seh, and Manas'seh the father of Amos, and Amos the father of Josi'ah,
11: and Josi'ah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.
12: And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoni'ah was the father of She-al'ti-el, and She-al'ti-el the father of Zerub'babel,
13: and Zerub'babel the father of Abi'ud, and Abi'ud the father of Eli'akim, and Eli'akim the father of Azor,
14: and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eli'ud,
15: and Eli'ud the father of Elea'zar, and Elea'zar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob,
16: and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

If someone other than Joseph would have been the rightful King of Judah, how would Jesus have been in line for inheriting it?

Matthew Chapter 27, verse 37
"And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, "This is Jesus the King of the Jews."

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Did Jesus have any brothers and/or sisters?

The word "brothers" is also used to mean cousin or close relative. But the Bible plainly says that Jesus was "THE son of Mary" and not merely a son of Mary.


Mark Chapter 6 (King James Version)
3: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.


Mark Chapter 6 (Revised Standard Version)
3: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

 

[prodromos]

Here is my proof. It's directly from the Bible. This is a list of Kings from King David to Joseph to Jesus.

There weren't any kings after Babylon. So in other words, this is your own private interpretation of scripture which has no support from the Church Fathers, at least none that you are willing to offer.

 

[Kristos]

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Did Jesus have any brothers and/or sisters?[/FONT]​

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Four men--James, Joses, Simon, & Judas--are mentioned [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]as the brothers of Jesus. (See Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3.)[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]There has been much discussion through the centuries as to[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]the exact relationship of these men to Jesus. Three[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]principal views have been advanced: [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica](1) that they were Jesus' actual brothers, that is, half brothers,[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]sons of Joseph & Mary (and therefore younger than Jesus); [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica](2) that they were His stepbrothers, that is, children of Joseph[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]by a previous marriage (and thus all older than He and not[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]His blood relatives at all); [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica](3) that they were the cousins of Jesus on the mother's side, according to some, or on Joseph's side,[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]according to others. [/FONT]

That seems to be a fair summary. Although, I think that both 2 & 3 are used depending on which "brother" is being discussed. Both sides make some assumptions, so neither can be "proven" using only the Bible. So what's the tie breaker? How does one decide which assumption is correct? Do you listen to your peers? Do you listen to ancient writings? Do you listen modern writings? Isn't this really the crux?.... Where do you get your Tradition?

 

[Uphill Battle]

The word "brothers" is also used to mean cousin or close relative. But the Bible plainly says that Jesus was "THE son of Mary" and not merely a son of Mary.


Mark Chapter 6 (King James Version)
3: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.


Mark Chapter 6 (Revised Standard Version)
3: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

YOu are attributing a needed proof that nobody would use.

When I am introduced in relation to my father, I am Mark, the son of David, not Mark, A son of David, even if there are other sons. (and there are.)

That is a flaming strawman.

 

[prodromos]

YOu are attributing a needed proof that nobody would use.

When I am introduced in relation to my father, I am Mark, the son of David, not Mark, A son of David, even if there are other sons. (and there are.)

That's a very good point.

 

[Rick Otto]

There weren't any kings after Babylon..

Doesn't matter. You don't have to crowned to be the heir to the crown, as far as I know.
I think you need to research your original hypothesis, or concede, brother prodromos.
If it helps, I admit I have stood corrected at least once or twice & schooled plenty by repentant & oblio, a couple of your EO brothers.