What? No Josephology?!?!?

[Oblio]

OP isn't mine.

I know, I already corrected myself, but thanks

 

[Uphill Battle]

I know, I already corrected myself, but thanks

missed it, sorry Bro.

 

[Tyndale]

I am not the 'head' of any woman outside of my marriage. Nor is any woman outside of my marriage accountable to me - according to Holy Scripture.

Please will you tell me who said this in the bible and the issue it was dealing with? Thanks

Again I ask, Who's the head of an unmarried daughter? a widowed wife? a sister without a husband?....

And I already answered. Christ

Can you please stop replying with wishy-washy answers, I'm not some fool who believes every whim spoken in the name of God. Show me biblical proof of your claim that Christ is the 'head' of my un-married daughter and I have no authority over her spiritual guidence?

 

[Oblio]

Show me biblical proof of your claim that Christ is the 'head' of my un-married daughter and I have no authority over her spiritual guidence?

I didn't say you had no authority of her upbringing as a child, but Christ is her head, not you, unless pride tells you differently.

 

[Oblio]

To your question I answered:

Christ

To which you responded:

Can you please stop replying with wishy-washy answers,

 

[Amylisa]

I had a bad day. Sorry I took it out on you. You are sweet.

Thanks very much! And thank you for the reps!
I had a bad day yesterday myself. It is SO hot here this week. I hate hot weather.

 

[Oblio]

An example of who is the head of a young unmarried daughter:

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

St. Joseph, pray for us sinners

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Can you please stop replying with wishy-washy answers, I'm not some fool who believes every whim spoken in the name of God.

Woooow.

Just checking in....

 

[LivingWordUnity]

I had said:

"If Jesus was in line with the throne, why wouldn't Joseph be in line with it?

If you look at the genealogy it goes through Joseph to Jesus.

Before Joseph died, he was the rightful king of Judah. But it was kept a secret. After he died, Jesus inherited the throne (although still in secret at the time). When the ones who crucified Jesus made the sign calling Jesus "King of the Jews", it was correct.

Joseph and Jesus were both in line for the throne of King David.

So both Joseph and Jesus were kings. But the reign of Jesus on that throne is the one that lasts forever.

I think that my other post could have been worded a little better to be less ambiguous."

Do you have any Church Fathers backing you up or is this something you have come up with yourself?

I noticed the part of what I had said that you set in bold letters.

I don't know, maybe I was wrong to say that it was after Joseph died that Jesus inherited the throne. Maybe Jesus became King of Judah at His birth or conception because He is God incarnate.

But the point that I was trying to make was that at least before Jesus took on his humanity in the womb of Mary, Joseph the carpenter was secretly the rightful King of Judah.

You do realise that there were many, many men who had genealogies going back to David.

Are you trying to suggest that you believe that someone other than Jesus was the one in line with the throne of Judah?

Because what I have been saying is that Jesus inherited the throne of Judah from King David and the other kings up to His father, Joseph. But the reign of Jesus is the one that lasts forever.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I had said:

"If Jesus was in line with the throne, why wouldn't Joseph be in line with it?

If you look at the genealogy it goes through Joseph to Jesus.

Before Joseph died, he was the rightful king of Judah. But it was kept a secret. After he died, Jesus inherited the throne (although still in secret at the time). When the ones who crucified Jesus made the sign calling Jesus "King of the Jews", it was correct.

Joseph and Jesus were both in line for the throne of King David.

So both Joseph and Jesus were kings. But the reign of Jesus on that throne is the one that lasts forever.

I think that my other post could have been worded a little better to be less ambiguous."

I noticed the part of what I had said that you set in bold letters.

I don't know, maybe I was wrong to say that it was after Joseph died that Jesus inherited the throne. Maybe Jesus became King of Judah at His birth or conception because He is God incarnate.

But the point that I was trying to make was that at least before Jesus took on his humanity in the womb of Mary, Joseph the carpenter was secretly the rightful King of Judah.Are you trying to suggest that you believe that someone other than Jesus was the one in line with the throne of Judah?

Because what I have been saying is that Jesus inherited the throne of Judah from King David and the other kings up to His father, Joseph. But the reign of Jesus is the one that lasts forever.

this is all complete Poppycock.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

this is all complete Poppycock.

Can you be specific as to what part of what I said that you disagree with?


Matthew Chapter 1

1: The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2: Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3: and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram,
4: and Ram the father of Ammin'adab, and Ammin'adab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5: and Salmon the father of Bo'az by Rahab, and Bo'az the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse,
6: and Jesse the father of David the king. And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uri'ah,
7: and Solomon the father of Rehobo'am, and Rehobo'am the father of Abi'jah, and Abi'jah the father of Asa,
8: and Asa the father of Jehosh'aphat, and Jehosh'aphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzzi'ah,
9: and Uzzi'ah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezeki'ah,
10: and Hezeki'ah the father of Manas'seh, and Manas'seh the father of Amos, and Amos the father of Josi'ah,
11: and Josi'ah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.
12: And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoni'ah was the father of She-al'ti-el, and She-al'ti-el the father of Zerub'babel,
13: and Zerub'babel the father of Abi'ud, and Abi'ud the father of Eli'akim, and Eli'akim the father of Azor,
14: and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eli'ud,
15: and Eli'ud the father of Elea'zar, and Elea'zar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob,
16: and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

"You may ask,
why is the generation of Christ here derived from the genealogy of Joseph? Christ
was the Son, not of Joseph, but of the Virgin Mary, especially if S. Mary were able,
as it might appear, to marry a man of another tribe, as her cousin Elizabeth, who
was of the tribe of Judah, like Mary herself, married Zachariah, a priest, and
therefore of the tribe of Levi.

The answer is, that Jewish women might, indeed, marry into another tribe:
but if they themselves, in the failure of heirs male, became heiresses of their
fathers, they were in that case obliged to marry husbands of their own tribe and
family, that their inheritance might not pass by marriage into another tribe. (See
the last chapter of Numbers, ver. 7.)

Joakim, the father of the Blessed Virgin, had no male children, a fact which
S. Matthew here omits, as something perfectly well known in the age in which he
writes. Hence it became the duty of S. Mary to marry a husband of her own tribe
and family, that is to say, Joseph. Thus the genealogy of Joseph became the
genealogy of the Blessed Virgin, and consequently of Christ, the Lord. Thus, too, it
is, that the Fathers teach universally that Joseph and Mary were of the same tribe
and family.

It may be yet further asked, why S. Matthew unfolded the genealogy of
Joseph rather than of Mary, since Christ was born of her alone, being a Virgin? I
answer:—First, because among the Jews, and other nations, genealogy is
customarily reckoned through fathers and husbands, not through mothers and
wives. Second, because Joseph was the true and lawful father of Christ, after the
manner which I shall explain presently. And Christ was the heir of David's throne
and sceptre, not through Mary, but through Joseph, according to God's promise to
David, 2 Sam. vii. 12; Ps. lxxxviii. and cxxxi. The sceptre, therefore, of Judah
devolved upon Jesus Christ, not only by the promise and gift of God, but by the
right of hereditary succession. For if, by common right, sons succeed to their
fathers' inheritance, when they are only accounted their sons by common repute,
how much more was Christ Joseph's, His father's, heir, since He was the Son of his
wife, by the power and the gift of the Holy Ghost? Wherefore as Joseph had a
parent's right over Christ, indeed, all rights which parents have over sons, so on the
other hand, Christ had, with reference to Joseph, all the rights which sons have in
respect to their parents. He had therefore a right to the kingdom of Israel after
Joseph's death. Hence the question of the Magi (ii. 2), "Where is he that is born
King of the Jews?" This was what S. Matthew wished to demonstrate, who, as S.
Augustine says, insists, most of all the Evangelists, upon the kingship of Christ.
And this explains why he gives the genealogy of Joseph, rather than of Mary. For
she could not be the heiress of the kingdom, so long as heirs male, like Joseph and
others, survived. Whence also it must be said, as a consequence, that the father and
other ancestors of Joseph were first-born, or at least eldest surviving sons of their
fathers, so that the right of reigning devolved upon them."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CORNMAT1.TXT

 

[prodromos]

Whence also it must be said, as a consequence, that the father and other ancestors of Joseph were first-born, or at least eldest surviving sons of their fathers, so that the right of reigning devolved upon them.

According to this, the kingship rightly belonged to Joseph's eldest surviving son. Scripture tells us that at the time of Christ there were at least four sons of Joseph still living, James, Joses, Judas, and Simon.

 

[Tyndale]

I am not the 'head' of any woman outside of my marriage. Nor is any woman outside of my marriage accountable to me - according to Holy Scripture.

It might be third time lucky asking this question, so please will you tell me who said this in the bible and the issue it was dealing with? Thanks

Again I ask, Who's the head of an unmarried daughter

And I already answered. Christ
I didn't say you had no authority of her upbringing as a child, but Christ is her head, not you, unless pride tells you differently.

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right." Eph 6:1

Who would you say is the 'head' of the child in this passage? Why would God command children to obey their parents if only Christ was their head?

Should I cease being my childs 'head' unto Christ, until such as time as she finds another 'head' [husband], because you say so?

An example of who is the head of a young unmarried daughter:

Originally Posted by The most Holy Theotokos
Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.

Now you really are going overboard. You start by saying, without biblical proof, that a man is only the head of his wife unto the Lord, but not his unmarried daughters. Then you have the nerve to state Mary is the 'head' of my unmarried daughter.

 

[Oblio]

Then you have the nerve to state Mary is the 'head' of my unmarried daughter

No, I said that the Theotokos, the young unmarried daughter of Ss. Joachim and Anna, has Christ as her head.

You can pridefully claim that you are the head of your daughter, but Scripture says otherwise.

 

[Tyndale]

You can pridefully claim that you are the head of your daughter, but Scripture says otherwise.

Show me where it does?....your failure to do so undermines your comments Oblio.

Paul speaking about young widows states, "I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully."

So obviously, God commands even young widows (under the age of 60) to marry and have a man as the 'head' unto God. Likewise, an unmarried daughter has her father as the 'head' unto Christ, until she gets a husband of her own.


...and still haven't shown me where other things you stated are found in the bible?

 

[Oblio]

Likewise, an unmarried daughter has her father as the 'head' unto Christ, until she gets a husband of her own.

That is the Gospel according to Tyndale, which thankfully was not canonized.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Can you be specific as to what part of what I said that you disagree with?


Matthew Chapter 1

1: The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2: Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3: and Judah the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, and Perez the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram,
4: and Ram the father of Ammin'adab, and Ammin'adab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5: and Salmon the father of Bo'az by Rahab, and Bo'az the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse,
6: and Jesse the father of David the king. And David was the father of Solomon by the wife of Uri'ah,
7: and Solomon the father of Rehobo'am, and Rehobo'am the father of Abi'jah, and Abi'jah the father of Asa,
8: and Asa the father of Jehosh'aphat, and Jehosh'aphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzzi'ah,
9: and Uzzi'ah the father of Jotham, and Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezeki'ah,
10: and Hezeki'ah the father of Manas'seh, and Manas'seh the father of Amos, and Amos the father of Josi'ah,
11: and Josi'ah the father of Jechoniah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.
12: And after the deportation to Babylon: Jechoni'ah was the father of She-al'ti-el, and She-al'ti-el the father of Zerub'babel,
13: and Zerub'babel the father of Abi'ud, and Abi'ud the father of Eli'akim, and Eli'akim the father of Azor,
14: and Azor the father of Zadok, and Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eli'ud,
15: and Eli'ud the father of Elea'zar, and Elea'zar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob,
16: and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

"You may ask,
why is the generation of Christ here derived from the genealogy of Joseph? Christ
was the Son, not of Joseph, but of the Virgin Mary, especially if S. Mary were able,
as it might appear, to marry a man of another tribe, as her cousin Elizabeth, who
was of the tribe of Judah, like Mary herself, married Zachariah, a priest, and
therefore of the tribe of Levi.

The answer is, that Jewish women might, indeed, marry into another tribe:
but if they themselves, in the failure of heirs male, became heiresses of their
fathers, they were in that case obliged to marry husbands of their own tribe and
family, that their inheritance might not pass by marriage into another tribe. (See
the last chapter of Numbers, ver. 7.)

Joakim, the father of the Blessed Virgin, had no male children, a fact which
S. Matthew here omits, as something perfectly well known in the age in which he
writes. Hence it became the duty of S. Mary to marry a husband of her own tribe
and family, that is to say, Joseph. Thus the genealogy of Joseph became the
genealogy of the Blessed Virgin, and consequently of Christ, the Lord. Thus, too, it
is, that the Fathers teach universally that Joseph and Mary were of the same tribe
and family.

It may be yet further asked, why S. Matthew unfolded the genealogy of
Joseph rather than of Mary, since Christ was born of her alone, being a Virgin? I
answer:—First, because among the Jews, and other nations, genealogy is
customarily reckoned through fathers and husbands, not through mothers and
wives. Second, because Joseph was the true and lawful father of Christ, after the
manner which I shall explain presently. And Christ was the heir of David's throne
and sceptre, not through Mary, but through Joseph, according to God's promise to
David, 2 Sam. vii. 12; Ps. lxxxviii. and cxxxi. The sceptre, therefore, of Judah
devolved upon Jesus Christ, not only by the promise and gift of God, but by the
right of hereditary succession. For if, by common right, sons succeed to their
fathers' inheritance, when they are only accounted their sons by common repute,
how much more was Christ Joseph's, His father's, heir, since He was the Son of his
wife, by the power and the gift of the Holy Ghost? Wherefore as Joseph had a
parent's right over Christ, indeed, all rights which parents have over sons, so on the
other hand, Christ had, with reference to Joseph, all the rights which sons have in
respect to their parents. He had therefore a right to the kingdom of Israel after
Joseph's death. Hence the question of the Magi (ii. 2), "Where is he that is born
King of the Jews?" This was what S. Matthew wished to demonstrate, who, as S.
Augustine says, insists, most of all the Evangelists, upon the kingship of Christ.
And this explains why he gives the genealogy of Joseph, rather than of Mary. For
she could not be the heiress of the kingdom, so long as heirs male, like Joseph and
others, survived. Whence also it must be said, as a consequence, that the father and
other ancestors of Joseph were first-born, or at least eldest surviving sons of their
fathers, so that the right of reigning devolved upon them."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CORNMAT1.TXT

you have to think Exponentially.

There are 22 generations listed (unless I miscounted, but accuracy isn't very important, for sake of simplicity, lets say 20.)

Each generation, you can average a number of male children born. (lets keep it small and say two, but it was likely far more.)

so, after the first generation, you'd have 2 male children. The next (2 male chlidren having 2 male children) so generation 2 would have 4 "successors to the throne."

20 generations, 2 children each, ballpark figure is 1,048,576 decendants from David that were Male.

The thought of Joseph as some secret king is a WILD supposition.

 

[Tyndale]

That is the Gospel according to Tyndale, which thankfully was not canonized.

and your canons are?...funny thing is, with all the statements you made about this issue, I never once seen a bible quotation accompany it.

Is this how you debate theology in the CF Theology team, Oblio?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

According to this, the kingship rightly belonged to Joseph's eldest surviving son. Scripture tells us that at the time of Christ there were at least four sons of Joseph still living, James, Joses, Judas, and Simon.

Please get to the point. Are you denying that Jesus was the heir to the throne of David?