what needs to be done?

[tulc]

I personally think the reason why Dobson is being heavily attacked by Radical Left, including the Gay Gestapo, because his words are so appealing to the public. His logical arguments become able to convince the public audience that we, as a society, don't need to have a civil same-sex marriage, in the light of promoting democracy and liberty.

Interesting...would that be the same Dobson who said legalizing gay marriage would result in destroying the Earth? Or one way to cure gay "tendencies" in sons is for dads to shower with them? Those kind of arguments?
tulc(just curious)

 

[Brieuse]

Interesting...would that be the same Dobson who said legalizing gay marriage would result in destroying the Earth? Or one way to cure gay "tendencies" in sons is for dads to shower with them? Those kind of arguments?
tulc(just curious)

I've heard stories like that.

I did martial arts for 12 years. I'm as butch as they get. Also played soccer as a child. I enjoyed playing with toy cars, hated playing with dolls. Had some good friends, mostly male.Was a terrible artist, my art teacher in school was very understanding. Lousy with piano lessons and alright with my guitar.

I attended Sunday School. Have a 100% attendance record as a child.

Was not exposed to porn, goodness sake we didn't even have porn during apartheid. Internet wasn't born yet. Was not molested. Have wonderful caring parents.

Got out of school, studied as an engineer. Still in the field. No sissy stuff in my life.

Cool, just realised I can't be gay.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I've heard stories like that.

I did martial arts for 12 years. I'm as butch as they get. Also played soccer as a child. I enjoyed playing with toy cars, hated playing with dolls. Had some good friends, mostly male.Was a terrible artist, my art teacher in school was very understanding. Lousy with piano lessons and alright with my guitar.

I attended Sunday School. Have a 100% attendance record as a child.

Was not exposed to porn, goodness sake we didn't even have porn during apartheid. Internet wasn't born yet. Was not molested. Have wonderful caring parents.

Got out of school, studied as an engineer. Still in the field. No sissy stuff in my life.

Cool, just realised I can't be gay.

You're a girl, Brieuse?

 

[Brieuse]

You're a girl, Brieuse?

No, sorry to disappoint

 

[Floatingaxe]

No, sorry to disappoint

Not disappointed!

 

[Ohioprof]

Hello everybody,

I am concerned about a very important issue:

The thing is I see how political gay rights movement systematically operates in our culture, where Christians are ending up being persecuted: like in Missouri State University, a student almost got expelled because she opposed gay adoption, there are many more cases like that. Now, there is a movement called Soulforce, whose attempt is to influence public opinion that the biblical position on homosexuality that many Christians hold, is an act of hateful violence. I wasn't convinced of that until I went to their website, and humbly shared with them the information about how our Christian brothers and sisters are being discriminated for their beliefs. I wanted to raise awareness, hoping to reach their hearts. Some of them seemed respectful at first, but then started accusing me of being 'antigay.' They even called an organization Alliance Defense Fund, that helped a lot of people defend their 1st Amendment right, as something similar to Nazism. I told them that I thought it was not right to call anybody who stands for justice, as ADF does, as antigay or so forth and I left. Was I being too harsh? But I believe I had to say that.

I'm worried folks, these guys go around the country and talk how oppressed they are and blame conservative Christians for that, attack Christian schools, and compare family advocates like James Dobson and James Kennedy to Hitler's Nazis. Just check what Soulforce has done in front of Focus on the Family headquarters a few months ago:
http://www.soulforce.org/article/1257

In this video, they talked about "hate speech" and changing laws. What could be that about?

God knows, what could happen if their rhetoric could influence the government. The question I have is: how do we reach people like that with Christ's love and tell them the truth at the same time? At the same time, does anybody think that activism like that should be prevented?

I need to know,

Sammy

Soulforce is great! I support them, and I hope others will support them. I hope all Christians support the fair and equal treatment of gay people as we are. God made us gay, and I hope all Christians come to accept gay people and will stop denigrating gay people on the basis of a few vague and obscure Bible verses. That's no excuse to treat gay people as less than fully human, as less than worthy.

Yay for Soulforce! Yay for the courageous young Christians who went on the Soulforce Equality Rides this past spring.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Soulforce is great! I support them, and I hope others will support them. I hope all Christians support the fair and equal treatment of gay people as we are. God made us gay, and I hope all Christians come to accept gay people and will stop denigrating gay people on the basis of a few vague and obscure Bible verses. That's no excuse to treat gay people as less than fully human, as less than worthy.

Yay for Soulforce! Yay for the courageous young Christians who went on the Soulforce Equality Rides this past spring.

Those Scripture verses are not obscure OR vague! They are plain and clear and they tell you that you are wrong to commit homosexual acts--so wrong that you will be condemned for it--regardless of whether or not one plasters the name of "Christian" on one's lapel or not.

Soulforce members are not Christian--they are Pseudo-Christian...demonic is more close to the truth.

 

[Cash80]

Dear Sammy, currently they are debating in the House of Commons in the UK in regards to a hate crime bill.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7034649.stm

This law will target anyone who tried to incite hate regarding gay people. For example: a hiphop rapper could be arrested and sentence for 7 years for his lyrics as stated in the articule just for singing about it and inciting hate.

The problem with this is there is already laws to protect the gay community here in Britain.
What is concerning the religious community is that this law could target them. The law is still under debate and has not yet passed however, the Christian groups on this side of the pond are concerned that it will affect 'free speech'. If we quote from the book of Leviticus or Corinthians will we be arrested for what we believe in...from our own pulpits?

IMHO, especially in the EU, the human laws that were meant to protect are starting to affect the freedoms and rights of individuals especially in their speech Most people are law abiding whether Christian or not. Christians as a whole obey the laws of the land because scripture instructs us to.
However, all the laws in the books can not stop THOSE people who have disregard for the law and continue breaking them will still break them anyhow. These laws are really meant to stifle free speech.

Wow! It's amazing that now the Left went even after the rappers, something that does not happen in our country. Rappers in the US, say things that target any groups of people many times. I saw something about what is going on in the Uk right here:

http://www.christian.org.uk/rel_liberties/roberts_case/video/roberts_case.htm
Are you familiar with this?

I saw the video. It is truly disgusting. My prayer is for the physical and spiritual fortitude of people on the front lines such as our fellow soldier and brother, James Dobson and his people! God bless them richly!

Actually, I like the third video, the one with Ron Zappolo, where he had the ladies from Soulforce and Melissa and Carrie from Focus on the Family. They presented reasonable arguments why marriage should only be defined as one man/one woman. A very interesting dialogue, allowing both sides to be heard, don't you think so? You know that Melissa used to be in homosexual relationship, and now she came out of it. Another thing I observed how the media people like to twist things. In that video, the reporters say that those women who wanted to get a marriage license were countered by some protesters. All there was, was one guy, who was carrying a poster (I paused and saw what was written on it), and it was something like "legislation of same-same marriage will not make homosexual behavior to be moral," and he quoted 1 Corinthians 6:9. It doesn't look like he was "protesting" anything but presenting God's message. That message was very important because it nails all the motives of Soulforce activism, and what they really want to do; which is to moralize homosexual behavior, not to seek "equal" rights. I believe Melissa and Carrie from Focus on the Family have pointed it out, very logically.

Interesting...would that be the same Dobson who said legalizing gay marriage would result in destroying the Earth? Or one way to cure gay "tendencies" in sons is for dads to shower with them? Those kind of arguments?
tulc(just curious)

As I already pointed out in this thread, by pointing out the link where Dobson refuted the charges against him:
http://www.citizenlink.org/FOSI/homosexuality/maf/A000001525.cfm

To answer your question, take a look at this one in particular:

2. “Dobson says gay people want to destroy marriage and the family.”

The truth:

• Dobson’s comments on the impact of same-sex marriage on the biblical definition of marriage and family are directed at the homosexual activist lobby and their allies, not specific gay and lesbian individuals. It is disingenuous for Soulforce to insist that any redefinition of these foundational concepts in society will not inevitably lead to the destruction of the family unit.
• Leading voices in the gay activist community support Dr. Dobson’s observation that gay activists want to completely overhaul of the biblical concept of marriage and the family. Michelangelo Signorile, a prominent gay writer, argues that “gay men…simply transform the institution itself, making it more sexually open, even influencing their heterosexual counterparts.” In addition, influential gay author Andrew Sullivan boasts that homosexual relationships might even be superior to heterosexual marriage because of the homosexuals’ capacity to understand the need for “outside relationships.”
• In countries where same-sex marriages and civil unions have been instituted, studies show a corresponding devaluation of heterosexual marriage with significantly higher rates of cohabitation and children born out of wedlock.
• In redefining marriage and family, bigamy, polygamy, polyamory (group marriage) and marriage between relatives must logically and eventually be allowed as well.
• 4. “Dobson says homosexuality can be prevented by parents and cured through ‘reparative therapy’.”
  
  The truth:
  • Since evidence shows that homosexuality is best seen as a developmental condition resulting from a combination of factors (see #1), to say that it is preventable in the family setting is accurate. However, Dr. Dobson does not use the term “cure” when referring to the various approaches used by therapists in assisting individuals seeking to reorient their sexual identity. Here, Soulforce is putting words into Dr. Dobson’s mouth.
  • Before it became “politically incorrect” in the 1980s to study this topic, many respected therapists and researchers reported surprisingly high rates of success in “reorientation” therapy. For example, world-renown sexologists Masters and Johnson reported in 1979 evidence of a 71.6 percent success rate for patients leaving homosexuality after a follow-up study of six years. Moreover, Dr. Charles Socarides, formerly professor at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, stated in 1978 “that there is at present sufficient evidence that in a majority of cases homosexuality can be successfully treated by psychoanalysis.”
  • More recently, Dr. Jeffrey Satinover tabulated the success rates of several researchers and noted in 1996 that “the composite of these results gives an overall success rate of more 50%—where success is defined as ‘considerable’ to ‘complete’ change.”
  • Significantly, one of the few researchers who has dared to study the phenomenon in recent years, Dr. Robert Spitzer of Columbia University, a pro-gay ally, concluded in 2001 that some highly motivated people can and do change their sexual orientation. For this he has incurred the wrath of gay activists.
  • Changing one’s sexual identity isn’t just a “right-wing Christian” thing. Not only have thousands of people come out of their homosexual identities based upon firmly held religious convictions, many people in the secular arena have also changed their sexual orientation. For example, formerly gay-identified celebrities now reportedly involved in relationships with people of the opposite gender include actors Anne Heche and Julie Cypher, filmmaker Gregg Araki, British pop star Tom Robinson and prominent psychotherapist and author JoAnn Loulan.
  • Ironically, Soulforce’s attempts to discredit those with differing viewpoints show a cruel disregard for individual civil and human rights. Indeed, all the major mental health associations — including most recently the American Counseling Association — have gone on record to affirm client rights to self-determination in their therapy options.

As far as showering with dads, that was the original opinion of Sigmund Freud, who had this phallic stage that children supposedly have, where they are fixated at the penis. Furthermore, this idea was implemented in Joseph Nicolosi's book "Parent's guide to preventing homosexuality." Dobson have been quoting them in his writings, several times.

Actually, "cure" would be incorrect word, here. I think once homosexual feelings are fixed, there could hardly be done anything about it, the shower thing could work only if children are really young and are in pre-homosexual stage of their development. Nevertheless, during his time, Sigmund Freud claimed to have helped men overcoming homosexual attractiveness. Of course, we can say that back then, the attitude toward homosexuality was different than it is today, and "change" was perceived differently. The same was said by the late Charles Socarides, who testified that SSA could be sucessfully treated by psychoanalysis, as mentioned in the above link.

Soulforce is great! I support them, and I hope others will support them. I hope all Christians support the fair and equal treatment of gay people as we are. God made us gay, and I hope all Christians come to accept gay people and will stop denigrating gay people on the basis of a few vague and obscure Bible verses. That's no excuse to treat gay people as less than fully human, as less than worthy.

Yay for Soulforce! Yay for the courageous young Christians who went on the Soulforce Equality Rides this past spring.

I looked at your profile and I noticed that you are unitarian. No wonder that you like Soulforce, because their philosophy pretty much resonates with Unitarian religion. But this is a Christian site, so be prepared to get refuted It's not that Christians got something against you personally, but we believe that our purpose should be to promote the Word of Jesus of Christ, and correct erroneous teaching.

Those Scripture verses are not obscure OR vague! They are plain and clear and they tell you that you are wrong to commit homosexual acts--so wrong that you will be condemned for it--regardless of whether or not one plasters the name of "Christian" on one's lapel or not.

Soulforce members are not Christian--they are Pseudo-Christian...demonic is more close to the truth.

Amen, very well said.

 

[Ohioprof]

Wow! It's amazing that now the Left went even after the rappers, something that does not happen in our country. Rappers in the US, say and target groups of people many times. I saw something about what is going on in the Uk right here:

http://www.christian.org.uk/rel_liberties/roberts_case/video/roberts_case.htm
Are you familiar with this?


Actually, I like the third video, the one with Ron Zappolo, where he had the ladies from Soulforce and Melissa and Carrie from Focus on the Family. They presented reasonable arguments why marriage only be defined as one man/one woman. A very interesting dialogue, allowing both sides to be heard, don't you think so? You know that Melissa used to be in homosexual relationship, and now she came out of it. Another thing I observed how the media people like to twist things. In that video, the reporters say that those women who wanted to get a marriage license were countered by some protesters. All there was, was one guy, who was carrying a poster (I paused and saw what was written on it), and it was something like "legislation of same-same marriage will not make homosexual behavior to be moral," and he quoted 1 Corinthians 6:9. It doesn't look like he was "protesting" anything but presenting God's message. That message was very important because it nails all the motives of Soulforce activism, and what they really want to do; which is to moralize homosexual behavior, not to seek "equal" rights. I believe Melissa and Carrie from Focus on the Family have pointed it out, very logically.



As I already pointed out in this thread, by pointing out the link where Dobson refuted the charges against him:
http://www.citizenlink.org/FOSI/homosexuality/maf/A000001525.cfm

To answer your question, take a look at this one in particular:

[/LIST]As far as showering with dads, that was the original opinion of Sigmund Freud, who had this phallic stage that children supposedly have, where they are fixated at the penis. Furthermore, this idea was implemented in Joseph Nicolosi's book "Parent's guide to preventing homosexuality." Dobson have been quoting them in his writings, several times.

Actually, "cure" would be incorrect word, here. I think once homosexual feelings are fixed, there could hardly be done anything about it, the shower thing could work only if children are really young and are in pre-homosexual stage of their development. Nevertheless, during his time, Sigmund Freud claimed to have helped men overcoming homosexual attractiveness. Of course, we can say that back then, the attitude toward homosexuality was different than it is today, and "change" was perceived differently. The same was said by the late Charles Socarides, who testified that SSA could be sucessfully treated by psychoanalysis, as mentioned in the above link.




I looked at your profile and I noticed that you are unitarian. No wonder that you like Soulforce, because their philosophy pretty much resonates with Unitarian religion. But this is a Christian site, so be prepared to get refuted It's not that Christians got something against you personally, but we believe that our purpose should be to promote the Word of Jesus of Christ, and correct erroneous teaching.



Amen, very well said.

Hi. I am a Unitarian Universalist Christian. There are many UUs who are Christians.

Btw, although my icon says Unitarian, I actually consider myself more a Universalist than a Unitarian. But we are one faith body now, since the merger of Unitarians and Universalists in 1961. And there was no icon available that said Universalist or Unitarian Universalist.

The Soulforce folks are mostly Christians. I find it bizarre that Floatingaxe would refer to the good people from Soulforce as "demonic." They are trying to spread their understanding of Christianity, just as other Christians are.

 

[tulc]

I looked at your profile and I noticed that you are unitarian. No wonder that you like Soulforce, because their philosophy pretty much resonates with Unitarian religion. But this is a Christian site, so be prepared to get refuted It's not that Christians got something against you personally, but we believe that our purpose should be to promote the Word of Jesus of Christ, and correct erroneous teaching.

...or not. You do realize you don't actually speak for all Christians, right? What she should be prepared for is to be supported by some Christians and not by others.
tulc(one of her supporters)

 

[ReformedChapin]

Hi. I am a Unitarian Universalist Christian. There are many UUs who are Christians.

Btw, although my icon says Unitarian, I actually consider myself more a Universalist than a Unitarian. But we are one faith body now, since the merger of Unitarians and Universalists in 1961. And there was no icon available that said Universalist or Unitarian Universalist.

The Soulforce folks are mostly Christians. I find it bizarre that Floatingaxe would refer to the good people from Soulforce as "demonic." They are trying to spread their understanding of Christianity, just as other Christians are.

Based on the biblical world view, your variation of Christianity is heresy.

 

[Ohioprof]

Based on the biblical world view, your variation of Christianity is heresy.

That's fine.

 

[Floatingaxe]

That's fine.

The truth is, it is not fine at all. It is a shame and a tragedy that you refuse truth.

I believe that when the trump sounds and the Church disappears into glory in an instant, that you and yours will be left to ponder your eternal error. Perhaps you will realize that Jesus is THE Christ after all and will fall on your knees in repentance then. It will be a difficult thing, for much mayhem and murder will be the order of the day and if you survive long enough to think these things through, it will be a blessing.

 

[Ohioprof]

The truth is, it is not fine at all. It is a shame and a tragedy that you refuse truth.

I believe that when the trump sounds and the Church disappears into glory in an instant, that you and yours will be left to ponder your eternal error. Perhaps you will realize that Jesus is THE Christ after all and will fall on your knees in repentance then. It will be a difficult thing, for much mayhem and murder will be the order of the day and if you survive long enough to think these things through, it will be a blessing.

Murder and mayhem? It seems unlikely.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Murder and mayhem? It seems unlikely.

You'll most likely discover the truth of the horrors of Tribulation...

 

[LunarPlexus]

The truth is, it is not fine at all. It is a shame and a tragedy that you refuse truth.

I believe that when the trump sounds and the Church disappears into glory in an instant, that you and yours will be left to ponder your eternal error. Perhaps you will realize that Jesus is THE Christ after all and will fall on your knees in repentance then. It will be a difficult thing, for much mayhem and murder will be the order of the day and if you survive long enough to think these things through, it will be a blessing.

I don't think this is how it will happen...I think god has an infinite amount of patience...I think he's going to keep trying until we get it right.

I don't think there's an ultimatum with god.

 

[tulc]

Based on the biblical world view, your variation of Christianity is heresy.

Much like Calvin and Luther were called heretics? Much like the "biblical world view" is considered heresy by a large part of the Church? You should remember everyone is a heretic to someone.
tulc(considered a heretic by almost everyone)

 

[tulc]

The truth is, it is not fine at all. It is a shame and a tragedy that you refuse truth.

I believe that when the trump sounds and the Church disappears into glory in an instant, that you and yours will be left to ponder your eternal error. Perhaps you will realize that Jesus is THE Christ after all and will fall on your knees in repentance then. It will be a difficult thing, for much mayhem and murder will be the order of the day and if you survive long enough to think these things through, it will be a blessing.

...you don't mean the Rapture do you? Now THAT is a heresy of the finest kind.
tulc(heresy: it's what ALL the cool kids are doing!)

 

[Floatingaxe]

I don't think this is how it will happen...I think god has an infinite amount of patience...I think he's going to keep trying until we get it right.

I don't think there's an ultimatum with god.

Keep trying? Trying what? He has done it all for us. It our choice to accept His provision or refuse it. To refuse it and still say you have an "in" with God is deception.

God does give each of us opportunities to accept Jesus His Son, but He does have a limit. The Holy Spirit, when grieved--LEAVES. That limit is unknowable. However, it is most definite that if one hasn't accepted His way of salvation before one's last breath, the jig is up. There is no forgiveness once a sinner stands before Him for judgment.

 

[Floatingaxe]

...you don't mean the Rapture do you? Now THAT is a heresy of the finest kind.
tulc(heresy: it's what ALL the cool kids are doing!)

No it isn't, but you are welcome to begin your own thread on that subject if you wish.