what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?

[dfw69]

If you examine the scriptures, history, and teachings of the Baha'i Faith, this may well become clear to you!

You can begin at the sites we've mentioned (or send me a private message, and I'll supply them to you again).

As Christ Himself said, 'By their fruits ye shall know them!"

And please note that the Faith explicitly fulfills the promise in First John 4:2 about who is of God!

Peace,

Bruce

i will look into it and pm if i have any questions....peace

 

[LoAmmi]

There are no messianic prophecies that were not fulfilled by Jesus. He fulfilled every single one of them and that is one way that we can know that He is the Messiah, the Son of the living God!

Here's the problem from my perspective:

1) Whenever I have been presented with the list of 500 or 100 or 300 or how ever many prophecies it is claimed he fulfilled, I do not understand the overwhelming majority of them to be prophecies to begin with or messianic prophecies at all. In other words, if you were to just sit down and read the "prophecies" without any knowledge of Christianity, you would never see them as such.

2) Of those, the prophecies that I recognize as such that Jesus is said to have done are ones that are not exclusive. Being in the line of David is not exclusive. Even something like riding into Jerusalem on a donkey is hardly a unique event.

3) The main goal that the New Testament lays out for Jesus is one that I do not find in any messianic prophecy. I see nothing in the Jewish scriptures that tells me that I need such an event to take place.

4) The prophecies Jesus is supposed to come back to complete are the ones that are exclusive. Once completed, they can never be completed again. In other words, the prophecies that would show beyond the shadow of the a doubt the truth are still unfinished.


I have always maintained my openness for Christianity being correct. I do not state that Jesus is emphatically not the messiah. I merely state that the prophecies are not complete and, as such, there is still a question.

 

[dfw69]

Here's the problem from my perspective:

1) Whenever I have been presented with the list of 500 or 100 or 300 or how ever many prophecies it is claimed he fulfilled, I do not understand the overwhelming majority of them to be prophecies to begin with or messianic prophecies at all. In other words, if you were to just sit down and read the "prophecies" without any knowledge of Christianity, you would never see them as such.

2) Of those, the prophecies that I recognize as such that Jesus is said to have done are ones that are not exclusive. Being in the line of David is not exclusive. Even something like riding into Jerusalem on a donkey is hardly a unique event.

3) The main goal that the New Testament lays out for Jesus is one that I do not find in any messianic prophecy. I see nothing in the Jewish scriptures that tells me that I need such an event to take place.

4) The prophecies Jesus is supposed to come back to complete are the ones that are exclusive. Once completed, they can never be completed again. In other words, the prophecies that would show beyond the shadow of the a doubt the truth are still unfinished.


I have always maintained my openness for Christianity being correct. I do not state that Jesus is emphatically not the messiah. I merely state that the prophecies are not complete and, as such, there is still a question.

i think the riding in on a donkey was a unique event...it was a first time israel hailed someone as the possible messiah....even if it was a brief moment in time....it was said that the whole world is gone after him.....not that the whole world at the time did....but multitudes did.....but in the end...a remnant of israel recieved him.....and launch the gospel message that we now have.....

 

[LoAmmi]

i think the riding in on a donkey was a unique event...it was a first time israel hailed someone as the possible messiah....even if it was a brief moment in time....it was said that the whole world is gone after him.....not that the whole world at the time did....but multitudes did.....but in the end...a remnant of israel recieved him.....and launch the gospel message that we now have.....

That is fine, but unconvincing to me.

 

[dfw69]

If you examine the scriptures, history, and teachings of the Baha'i Faith, this may well become clear to you!

You can begin at the sites we've mentioned (or send me a private message, and I'll supply them to you again).

As Christ Himself said, 'By their fruits ye shall know them!"

And please note that the Faith explicitly fulfills the promise in First John 4:2 about who is of God!

Peace,

Bruce

1st jn 4:2 is interprete two ways...one says obey his (messiahs) commandments....the other...obey Gods commandments and some hold that that means to obey the torah and 10 commandments.....but i believe that to truly be in the faith....one must obey the commandments of the new testament.....and cast off the law....for one in the faith believes that Jesus fulfilled the law for them.....and the believer is righteous by faith in that jesus fulfilled the law for them....setting them free from service to the law.....


as for the 10 commandments....let them be written in the heart....and let all men obey them....yet... never use the law to condemn anyone that breaks them against you.....but forgive and show mercy....if your faith obeys these things then you do well....which is to obey the 10 commandments from the heart....obey the new testaments commandments .....have faith in the messiahs work of setting you free from the law....believe that the sons blood has redeemed you from sin and the law .....and never sin against anyone ever again to remain blameless before God....above all... keep this faith until death or the lord returns....

 

[dfw69]

That is fine, but unconvincing to me.

it seems that the only thing that will convince you will be his return....for then his return will fulfill the messianic prophecies that you seek for....

....will you be alive to witness jesus returns?....i believe the answer is, no!...we will not see his return in this lifetime...acording to the scriptures ....to much has yet to take place....so your only hope is the holy spirit revealing to you the truth....and faith....

do you believe the messiah will come in your lifetime?....

 

[dfw69]

Here's the problem from my perspective:

1) Whenever I have been presented with the list of 500 or 100 or 300 or how ever many prophecies it is claimed he fulfilled, I do not understand the overwhelming majority of them to be prophecies to begin with or messianic prophecies at all. In other words, if you were to just sit down and read the "prophecies" without any knowledge of Christianity, you would never see them as such.

2) Of those, the prophecies that I recognize as such that Jesus is said to have done are ones that are not exclusive. Being in the line of David is not exclusive. Even something like riding into Jerusalem on a donkey is hardly a unique event.

3) The main goal that the New Testament lays out for Jesus is one that I do not find in any messianic prophecy. I see nothing in the Jewish scriptures that tells me that I need such an event to take place.

4) The prophecies Jesus is supposed to come back to complete are the ones that are exclusive. Once completed, they can never be completed again. In other words, the prophecies that would show beyond the shadow of the a doubt the truth are still unfinished.


I have always maintained my openness for Christianity being correct. I do not state that Jesus is emphatically not the messiah. I merely state that the prophecies are not complete and, as such, there is still a question.

seems like jesus is a stumbling block....requires faith instead of the norm....im not sure what a stumbling block is....but jesus is said to be the chief cornerstone of a temple built....and its said that the just shall live by faith....that those justified are justified by thier faith in jesus the messiah

 

[LoAmmi]

do you believe the messiah will come in your lifetime?....

Probably not.

 

[LoAmmi]

seems like jesus is a stumbling block....requires faith instead of the norm....im not sure what a stumbling block is....but jesus is said to be the chief cornerstone of a temple built....

The New Testament says that.

 

[dfw69]

The New Testament says that.

the new testament comfirms what the old scripture says of God laying in zion a stumbling stone

 

[LoAmmi]

the new testament comfirms what the old scripture says of God laying in zion a stumbling stone

Where does it say that? I would like to read it.

 

[dfw69]

Probably not.

if im not mistaken ....many believe in judaism the messiah can come at any moment.....many hold that the messianic age is near....and perhaps be ffulfilled in our lifetime....unless all prophecies of the new testament take place...this messiah will be false....but if he is not Jesus ....he is false....if he is a man....he is false....that is...according to the new testament....

i hope ....if he comes soon...you will not obey him....you will stumble before God...if you do....for following anyone who claims to be the messiah....is the same as spiritual adultery....and anyone who comes and builds a temple and says Hashem lives there when hashem does not is a liar.....and the same as worshiping false gods.....gn for now....peace

 

[dfw69]

Where does it say that? I would like to read it.

i will get it for you tomorrow....peACE

 

[LoAmmi]

if im not mistaken ....many believe in judaism the messiah can come at any moment.....many hold that the messianic age is near....and perhaps be ffulfilled in our lifetime....unless all prophecies of the new testament take place...this messiah will be false....but if he is not Jesus ....he is false....if he is a man....he is false....that is...according to the new testament....

Again, if someone comes and fulfills all the messianic prophecies and it is not Jesus, Jesus is out of the running to be the messiah. That is the entire point. One person, and only one person, can do this. There is no second place.

 

[dfw69]

Again, if someone comes and fulfills all the messianic prophecies and it is not Jesus, Jesus is out of the running to be the messiah. That is the entire point. One person, and only one person, can do this. There is no second place.

I see your point.....but again...no man can fulfill them...he will be false....so my consern is how convincing will this man be?....its possible that he will not convince you when he comes..but the deception is suppose to be great....

 

[dfw69]

Where does it say that? I would like to read it.

isaiah 8:14 and isaiah 28:16

 

[LoAmmi]

isaiah 8:14 and isaiah 28:16

Isaiah 8:
13. The Lord of Hosts-Him shall you fear, and He is your fear, and He gives you strength. 14. And it shall be for a portent and a stone upon which to dash oneself and for a rock upon which to stumble for the two houses of Israel, who came to be for a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15. And many shall stumble upon them, and fall and be broken, and be trapped and caught. 16. Bind this warning, seal the Torah in My disciples.'

Using these verses, I could easily argue that anybody that says do not keep the Torah is a stumbling block, a trap that I should not follow as I need to beware the warning and keep the Torah.

There is nothing in this verse that suggests it is in anyway about the messiah. The thing is you cannot simply take a verse or chapter, pull it by itself, and claim it is about the messiah. It must be about the messiah.

I will say that Isaiah 28 does appear to be messianic, but does not help Jesus' case in anyway.

 

[LoAmmi]

I see your point.....but again...no man can fulfill them...he will be false....so my consern is how convincing will this man be?....its possible that he will not convince you when he comes..but the deception is suppose to be great....

There seems to be just this fundamental disconnect.

Again IF someone comes and fulfills them, and it is not Jesus, what is the only conclusion that can be drawn? And if you say that he is false, that is simply incorrect.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LoAmmi The New Testament says that.

the new testament comfirms what the old scripture says of God laying in zion a stumbling stone

What is the difference between "Sion" and "Zion" in the bible?

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G4622 matches the Greek Σιών (Siōn), which occurs 7 times in 7 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Deuteronomy 4:48 from Aroer, which [is] on the bank of the River Arnon, even to Mount Sion (that is, Hermon),

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and lo, a Lamb having stood upon the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;

....

 

[dfw69]

What is the difference between "Sion" and "Zion" in the bible?

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G4622 matches the Greek Σιών (Siōn), which occurs 7 times in 7 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Deuteronomy 4:48 from Aroer, which [is] on the bank of the River Arnon, even to Mount Sion (that is, Hermon),

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and lo, a Lamb having stood upon the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;

....

i was taught there is an earthy zion and a heavenly zion