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I believe it is shuwb which means to turn or return. The word in Arabic in Tauwab. There is a story about the Muslim mystic poetess Rabi'a who came upon another Muslim Hasan al-Basra weeping and wailing over his sins and saying what a wretched man he was. Rabi'a said, "You are right about this, because had you truly repented and turned towards God you would see only God and not notice your own sinfulness."
I think she had a point.
I have not cited the authority of a rabbi. I have not copy and pasted any arguments from rabbis. I have admitted that I have to research things in order to understand them. I do not possess the magnificent space brain necessary to simply know information.
I will not be speaking with you anymore. This statement angered me greatly and I refuse to speak with people on this forum who appear to want me to be angry.
I meant no such insult! It was merely a joke, not meant with any malice or anything else in mind. But what is far more important than clearing the misunderstanding, is you examining the scripture and realizing that Christ is the Messiah, and that there is no logical defense of the scriptures that involves denying Christ from them. You don't have to like me. You just have to realize that.
You may well be correct and I may be correct.
And it's important to figure out which one is which.
It has been 2000 years and that debate has never been resolved between Jews and Christians. I doubt we're going to resolve it on this thread.
Who cares about collective resolution? It only matters what you decide, alone.
Israel did not suffer as a lamb as a sin offering. The soul of Israel was never offered up as a sin offering. And, as far as I know, a nation does not have a corporate soul. It reads, "he" would suffer for "us." If "he" is Israel, who is "us?" Will Israel take on the sins of someone else? Will the suffering of Israel as a nation somehow bring salvation on an individual level to each and every individual "us?" But "us" and "he" are the same thing, according to you. Did this happen in 70ad, when the Jews, who were in a state of utter apostasy with even an ineligible High Priest in the temple, suffered horribly and were defeated by the Romans?
Where is it called a sin offering in the text? Keep in mind that I would be asking for the specific Hebrew word, which I am pretty sure is not there.
As to the "he" thing, Israel is referred to collectively as a he in multiple places. To give you an example:
Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
This is obviously speaking about corporate Israel and him.
The whole chapter (and forth servant song in general) occurs in the messianic age. It is about the time when Israel is redeemed. If you follow the text, the kings of the world are speaking at the beginning. They are now recognizing the wrongs they committed against Israel and cannot believe that Israel was right after all this time. They are healed, as in brought to HaShem, through Israel's suffering and eventual redemption.
The difference between this sentence from Hosea, and these sentences from Isaiah:
Isa 53:5-6 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Is that in the first one, it is clear the subject is Israel, and it is clear he is being discussed. In the latter sentences, they are talking about one receiving wounds, and the other "us" being healed by them. So, how then does Israel, corporately, receive wounds, and Israel, individually among the people, receive the healing?
It could also be that the Jewish people would be raised high. How many years have Jews been seen as punished by HaShem for Jesus? How long has Israel carried that? Now, if it were revealed tomorrow that Israel was right all along, would the Christians not be astonished? The Muslims too?Now that you mention it, let's look one page back and see what it says.
Isa 52:13-15 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. (14) As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: (15) So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
So before going into a discussion on how Israel will treat the Messiah, the scripture teaches that the kings of the nations "shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider." IOW, the Gentiles, who never had the prophecies of the Old Testament to accept any such thing, shall hear the Gospel, and consider it. This then goes into the next chapter, which talks of the Messiah being rejected of men. IOW, rejected by His own people, yet He carries their sins upon Himself, by which He makes many righteous, and shall see His offspring.
This is the Gospel message, pure and simple, and is an accurate prediction of what in fact happened.
What is your clue that the servant is the messiah in the text?
Would you allow me to PM the link to you? It is a considerably better write-up on Isaiah 53 than I could ever hope to muster.
And so He is. Our Messiah is not our savior. Our Messiah does not come to die for our sins. That is a concept foreign to Judaism and, as you can see in the New Testament, always has been.Because corporate Israel cannot save corporate Israel. Only one man can, who can bear their burdens, and rule over them as the Mighty God, and as the spiritual Head of Israel. The entire narrative of Isaiah speaks to this truth, and only God can ever be the Savior:
Isa 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."Isa 9:-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
If corporate Israel is the servant, then corporate Israel is the Mighty God, the root of Jesse, and the redeemer, which is wounded for its own transgressions, and bears the iniquity of its own sins, which at the same time it did not commit.
Do not read this as an insult. I would prefer that you master the subject yourself. Look into their words, and see if they speak the truth. And when you become a master of it and can explain it yourself, then come back to me and speak. Assuming, of course, that there isn't an economic collapse and world wide disaster that doesn't impede me from responding before that time.
What is your clue that the servant is the messiah in the text?
Improperly stated. The clues (plural) include, but in no way are limited to:
1) the Holy Ghost testifying of Christ (the most important one)
2) Christ speaking of it
3) the Apostles speaking of it
4) Decidedly after that, it making sense in the text itself. And not merely one chapter, or two, or 3, but THE WHOLE collection of 66 books. And those who adhere to all the various incarnations of the deuterocanon don't report there being anything to mitigate it, either.
Our Messiah is not our savior. Our Messiah does not come to die for our sins. That is a concept foreign to Judaism and, as you can see in the New Testament, always has been.
I take your word for it that the concept is foreign to Judaism, but why do you say "as you can see from the NT, always has been?"
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