Hey WellWisher, sorry I am late.
I like these kind of threads, because as a new Christian, they are generally the ones I can actually reply to and feel I'm qualified to do so heh.
Now for those who argue for the validity of the Bible, have you read the critiques of those scientist/historians who say that prophecy has been fulfilled?
I won't say all of them, but a fair few yes. For example, the ones that I had doubts about the most.
I mean, is it the case that you objectively weigh the arguments, or is it the case that you are satisfied because you "know that you know" that they are true (ie. something within you testifies to the truth of these things).
For me personally, it was more along the lines of that I was happy nothing outright contradicted it. For example the Bible didn't say something happened one way, lets say, the Earth is square, and we know it isn't. Something like that, is what I understand many people to be looking for. It's termed a
magic bullet argument, that is, and instant kill or put down. As soon as one thing is proven incorrect, then we cannot reconcile the rest based on faith.
So when I read up on things, and they offered an explanation that I could actually deem believable, then I was very pleased with that and felt satisfied.
I've been asking myself a lot recently why it took me so long to get around to
being satisfied, and for that I have no answer. If I did, I guess we could instantly convert people.
And (related to the above paragraph) how does anyone know that their personal experience is objectively true? What I mean is, our culture is saturated with God concepts and Biblical quotes. It is easy to recall them and think it is God talking to you - just as easy as recalling other sayings/teachings from one's childhood, etc.
I feel that this is of detriment more than it is of aid. If I had a buck for everything I
thought I knew about God and the Bible, only to find out it was taken completely out of context or just plain incorrect, I would be a wealthy man.
In fact I attended a course recently, which was more about marriage (from a Biblical point of view) than anything else, but to establish things the counsellor asked 10 simple questions based on the Bible of things that everyone knew, and probably everyone knows regardless of their faith. I think I got 6/10. They were simple things like what animal swalled Jonah, where was Jesus when the three wise men visited him and so on. I got both of those wrong. The answers are a large fish (not a whale) and in his house, playing. So yeah, for me anyhow, the secular experience of God didn't help me.
Could it be the case that you are looking for evidence in the things that happen to you? Like if I pray for my cancer to be healed, and then it is suddenly healed...how do I know it was God (the Father)?
I struggle with this myself. Especially recently, as I asked for a career move, and God presented me with something I wasn't expecting. I still now, keep asking myself, "Was that God, or just chance." I think the hardest thing in the world is to surrender decisions up to God and follow what may come from His guidence.
There are a few ways to tell what God wants from us. This is straight form the
Alpha course btw:
Commanding Scripture - Reading the Bible and having it speak to you, ie being very pertinent to your situation and prayers.
Compelling Spirit - This is evidenced in strong feelings, thoughts and desires one way or another. Unwavering thoughts along a particular line, a feeling you can't shake and so on.
Common Sense - This is pretty self explanatory and helps weed out the random thoughts, like, "Should I jump into that fire? Will God save me?" and so on.
Counsel of Saints - Listening to others essentially, especially those people of Christ.
Circumstantial Signs - One not to be relied on too heavily, but sometimes you will find yourself somewhere you didn't intend to be, or someone will engage you in a conversation of an unusual nature and maybe hit on something of importance to you.
So yeah, we aren't without ways to help guide us.
As far as I can tell, this kind of thing happens all over the world, all the time, across all belief systems, with or without prayer. Surely that is evidence that such things just happen as part of the nature of our reality and have no bearing on type of beliefs held? (that's a question that gives away how I think about things).
The way I think of this, is that God doesn't stop working in people's lives because they are of a certain faith, or lack of faith. He will continue to guide and prompt and lead because He wants what is best for us. Eventually, and hopefully it becomes eerie to the degree that things happen. I guess we call this coincidence, but for me at least, there are some things I just cannot put down to coincidence. Meeting my wife is one of them, if there was ever a perfect person for me that happened to walk into my life at the perfect time, with the perfect words and patience, she is it. The remote situation that brought us together, I believe, was God's Will.
Maybe He got tired of trying to lead me with signs, and decided I needed someone with a more direct approach. Hehe.
I am not being argumentative, just trying to understand whether Christians are actually critical of their experience, or whether they accept all unusual events as evidence for God's intervention in their life.
Again I can only speak for myself, but given the world we live in, it takes a very strong mind to fly in the face of all of life's
lessons and actively seek knowledge for yourself, when really, you feel perfectly adequate without it, that is... until you get it.
The reason that I ask is that I automatically ask these kinds of questions and subject everything to critical analysis. That is who I have always been, and it may not be the correct way (that's for sure). I accept that about myself nowadays.
Well that is very similar to how I am too. Even now, I don't think you need to give that up, but I have adopted a firm framework to interpret my information (The Bible), and it's made life far more interesting and exciting, and I feel infinitely better for it too.
Yet I have been working with Christians a lot lately and I have observed that they attribute everything good that happens to God and everything bad to Satan or some kind of attack. These individuals seem to have no personal hand in what happens at all!! And yet they seem to be racking up a lot of evidence for their beliefs because they dont look for normal explanations first (like good things happen to them because they have worked hard on bringing them about).
I'm not that familiar with spiritual warfare. I won't put down everything bad that happens to me to Satan. Sometimes I am just stupid.
I think this is also part of how faith advances in people. At the start I don't think many of us are like this, but as you progress, get closer to God and understand Him more, I can well imagine it will take that form in my life at a later stage.
Once again - I am simply airing my own personal concerns and hope that you can help. I am not out for a debate (nor interested in one). It would just help to hear some ideas from people who believe. I cannot ask the people at work these questions, because they could become upset (thinking that I am challenging their beliefs) - and it is sincerely not my intention to upset anyone, nor challenge anyone's beliefs. I just want to understand.
Interestingly, we are under orders to do exactly what we are here, in real life too. You have a very friendly and non-confrontational manner about you, if your posts are any indication to go by, and I would say that they would be more than happy to talk to you about these things. I would strongly suggest doing it over a lunch or something like that, which is what I did with my boss. My sessions didn't go very well, but theres a first time for everything hehe, but yeah, why not ask them? They certainly shouldn't object. Depending on the strength of their faith they may not wish to, which is ok too.
All the best, God bless and keep well.
Digit
