What makes Justinian a "saint?"

[Light of the East]

I am having a real hard time understanding why Justinian is referred to as a saint in Orthodoxy. Is it because he defended the True Faith against heresies?

Okay, that is a good thing, but it seems to me that the qualification of sainthood has not only to do with orthodox theology (right thinking), but also with the kind of life a man/woman lives. We don't have a very good report on Justinian in this area, especially in the light of his warlike tendencies.

Killing 4,500 of your enemies because they refuse baptism (conversion at swordpoint!) doesn't strike me as being in line with what Jesus taught in Matthew 5. Neither does his whole war-like life in which he took up the sword, not to defend his country, but to put down the pagans and unify the nation. I thought offensive violence was condemned by the Church and those who did such things were excommunicated for a period of time, sometimes years.

Guess not if you are an emperor, eh? Different set of rules.

 

[ArmyMatt]

he's a saint because it has been revealed to the Church that he is interceding for us in spite of his sins, as are a lot of saints.

 

[Light of the East]

Oh, come on, Father!!!!

Good grief!!!

For all their errors, the Roman Catholics at least have a strict path by which they determine who is and who ain't a saint. It's not just that their saints upheld their teachings, but the whole life is looked at, and when I look at the life of Justinian.......not so good.

When you say "revealed to the Church" my BS meter starts pinging. It sounds more like to me that a bunch of bishops got together, appreciative of the fact that Justinian stood against heresy, and decided to overlook his violent life.

Do you have any verifyable annecdotal evidence of a profound revelation of the kind that would verify this, or is this just more of a theologumen regarding someone who stood for Orthodoxy in the face of heresies?

 

[Not David]

So you believe kings and emperors go to hell?

Why is King David a man according to God's heart when he was not allowed to build Him a temple because he was also a warrior?

 

[Light of the East]

Did I say anything at all about going to hell?

David repented.

I don't see that in Justinian. It appears that he was a violent man throughout his life.

 

[Not David]

Oh, come on, Father!!!!

Good grief!!!

For all their errors, the Roman Catholics at least have a strict path by which they determine who is and who ain't a saint. It's not just that their saints upheld their teachings, but the whole life is looked at, and when I look at the life of Justinian.......not so good.

When you say "revealed to the Church" my BS meter starts pinging. It sounds more like to me that a bunch of bishops got together, appreciative of the fact that Justinian stood against heresy, and decided to overlook his violent life.

Do you have any verifyable annecdotal evidence of a profound revelation of the kind that would verify this, or is this just more of a theologumen regarding someone who stood for Orthodoxy in the face of heresies?

There were several Roman Catholic saints who were also kings and warriors.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh, come on, Father!!!!

Good grief!!!

For all their errors, the Roman Catholics at least have a strict path by which they determine who is and who ain't a saint. It's not just that their saints upheld their teachings, but the whole life is looked at, and when I look at the life of Justinian.......not so good.

When you say "revealed to the Church" my BS meter starts pinging. It sounds more like to me that a bunch of bishops got together, appreciative of the fact that Justinian stood against heresy, and decided to overlook his violent life.

Do you have any verifyable annecdotal evidence of a profound revelation of the kind that would verify this, or is this just more of a theologumen regarding someone who stood for Orthodoxy in the face of heresies?

um, no. the guy who headed the Ustashi in Serbia, who worked with the Nazis to kill Orthodox has moved closer to sainthood just recently.

you're the one who is always trying to find how universalism can work, now actually asking why an Orthodox saint is an Orthodox saint as if he shouldn't be one... your BS meter seems to be lacking.

personal anecdotal evidence? no. but as an Orthodox Christian, the consensus of the Church speaks the Truth. so if the consensus affirms he is a saint, then he is a saint.

 

[Not David]

Did I say anything at all about going to hell?

David repented.

I don't see that in Justinian. It appears that he was a violent man throughout his life.

Where did it say in Scriptures that King David repented from being a warrior? What I remember is that he told King Solomon to make General Joab and Shimei payback for their wickedness.

 

[Light of the East]

David was a man after God's own heart because David did what God told him to do. In the Old Covenant, there was a war going on between Satan and God. The pagan tribes were trying to wipe out Israel so that the Messiah, the Savior of the world, would not come. Physical war and violence were very much a part of that time and the war that was taking place at that time.

With the Resurrection, the war was won and violence was no longer part of the picture. The Church taught against violence, so much so that someone who killed another in war was denied the Eucharist and given penance to do. It was a whole change of modus operandi which took place with the Resurrection. Yet it appears that the bishops of the Church convenienty looked the other way in regards to Justinian.

So......layperson violence not good. Emperor violence......meaaaaa, not so bad.

 

[Light of the East]

um, no. the guy who headed the Ustashi in Serbia, who worked with the Nazis to kill Orthodox has moved closer to sainthood just recently.

you're the one who is always trying to find how universalism can work, now actually asking why an Orthodox saint is an Orthodox saint as if he shouldn't be one... your BS meter seems to be lacking.

personal anecdotal evidence? no. but as an Orthodox Christian, the consensus of the Church speaks the Truth. so if the consensus affirms he is a saint, then he is a saint.

Sheesh. That is putrid.

And as for this, well, if I become Orthodox, I am going to have to set aside my own feelings and accept that the Church is correct all the time.....or I will become a heretic. So in one sense, this really is the only answer that I have, isn't it?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sheesh. That is putrid.

And as for this, well, if I become Orthodox, I am going to have to set aside my own feelings and accept that the Church is correct all the time.....or I will become a heretic. So in one sense, this really is the only answer that I have, isn't it?

when it comes her dogma? yes. and hagiography is dogmatic. the Church doesn't care about your opinion or mine on St Justinian. he is a saint. period.

 

[Light of the East]

There were several Roman Catholic saints who were also kings and warriors.

In listening to Fr. John Strickland's excellent podcast, PARADISE AND UTOPIA, on AFR, I get the sense that the warrior mentality of the Western Church was not understood nor accepted by the Orthodox East.

 

[Not David]

In listening to Fr. John Strickland's excellent podcast, PARADISE AND UTOPIA, on AFR, I get the sense that the warrior mentality of the Western Church was not understood nor accepted by the Orthodox East.

Captain Queen of War.
To thee our captain Queen of war, the battle trophies won, thy people rescued by thine aid from peril, dedicate as our offering of thanksgiving, O Theotokos, as thou hast might which none by war can overcome, from all forms of danger hast thou delivered me, that I may cry unto thee: "Hail, O virgin, unwedded bride."

 

[Lukaris]

St. Justinian....gotta accept it...would not spend 1 penny on an icon of.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Oh, come on, Father!!!!

Good grief!!!

For all their errors, the Roman Catholics at least have a strict path by which they determine who is and who ain't a saint. It's not just that their saints upheld their teachings, but the whole life is looked at, and when I look at the life of Justinian.......not so good.

When you say "revealed to the Church" my BS meter starts pinging. It sounds more like to me that a bunch of bishops got together, appreciative of the fact that Justinian stood against heresy, and decided to overlook his violent life.

Do you have any verifyable annecdotal evidence of a profound revelation of the kind that would verify this, or is this just more of a theologumen regarding someone who stood for Orthodoxy in the face of heresies?

Lol.


Do you think Mother Teresa, Robert Bellarmine, Pope Paul VI, Sister Faustina, and Padre Pio were strictly analyzed and all the aspects of their life were looked at with rigor? All the very, real questionable things about these people resolved?

Trust me, if you look into the life of any of the above, outside of Catholic propaganda outlets, you will begin to bite your lip and see very questionable things about their spiritual life or things they allegedly did.

If you want, I can bring up examples of the above.



Justinian, along with Constantine, aren't even the worst Saints that I've seen canonized in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I mean, I personally struggle with how St. Yevgenny of Novgorod or how St. Olga were canonized. The only reason it seems like they were canonized is that they burned heretics and pagans brutally.


I think that canonizations serve a vital aspect of pointing us to role models on how we can find and imitate Christ, and certainly are binding, with some reason or purpose behind them.

Yet I personally cannot see how canonizations in either communion can be seen as a definitive judgment of the state of that person's soul.

And I know the Serbian Patriarch has said that the Orthodox Church doesn't view canonizations as a definitive statement of where that person's soul is.

That's not an official Orthodox opinion, but that's what I personally believe. And the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch said so.

 

[TheLostCoin]

um, no. the guy who headed the Ustashi in Serbia, who worked with the Nazis to kill Orthodox has moved closer to sainthood just recently.

you're the one who is always trying to find how universalism can work, now actually asking why an Orthodox saint is an Orthodox saint as if he shouldn't be one... your BS meter seems to be lacking.

personal anecdotal evidence? no. but as an Orthodox Christian, the consensus of the Church speaks the Truth. so if the consensus affirms he is a saint, then he is a saint.

Stepinac didn't "head" the Ustache.

And when it comes to Serbian, Bosnian, and Croatian relations, there aren't much clear black and white answers of who was good and who was evil; because when mass killings happened at various points in recent history, it seems that while there were clear, individual actors, it's not like the higher Church authorities in either communion gave a speech of public denunciation - they just kind of tacitly and silently approved it or looked the other way, pretending it wasn't happening.


I mean, if you want, we can get into a discussion of the Serbian Orthodox Church's role in promoting the Bosnian genocide.

 

[Not David]

Lol.


Do you think Mother Teresa, Robert Bellarmine, Pope Paul VI, Sister Faustina, and Padre Pio were strictly analyzed and all the aspects of their life were looked at with rigor? All the very, real questionable things about these people resolved?

Trust me, if you look into the life of any of the above, outside of Catholic propaganda outlets, you will begin to bite your lip and see very questionable things about their spiritual life or things they allegedly did.

If you want, I can bring up examples of the above.



Justinian, along with Constantine, aren't even the worst Saints that I've seen canonized in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I mean, I personally struggle with how St. Yevgenny of Novgorod or how St. Olga were canonized. The only reason it seems like they were canonized is that they burned heretics and pagans brutally.


I think that canonizations serve a vital aspect of pointing us to role models on how we can find and imitate Christ, and certainly are binding, with some reason or purpose behind them.

Yet I personally cannot see how canonizations in either communion can be seen as a definitive judgment of the state of that person's soul.

And I know the Serbian Patriarch has said that the Orthodox Church doesn't view canonizations as a definitive statement of where that person's soul is.

That's not an official Orthodox opinion, but that's what I personally believe. And the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch said so.

Who is Yevgenny of Novgorod?
Also I keep asking if being a Politician means you will never become a saint because that's what I get to the conclusion with these posts?

Also how are canonizations non-dogma?

 

[TheLostCoin]

Who is Yevgenny of Novgorod?
Also I keep asking if being a Politician means you will never become a saint because that's what I get to the conclusion with these posts?

Also how are canonizations non-dogma?

Sorry, "Gennady of Novgorod." I keep messing up that name.

Gennady of Novgorod - Wikipedia

 

[Not David]

Sorry, "Gennady of Novgorod." I keep messing up that name.

Gennady of Novgorod - Wikipedia

Ok, because I got this man as a result:
Yevgeny Rodionov - Wikipedia

 

[TheLostCoin]

Ok, because I got this man as a result:
Yevgeny Rodionov - Wikipedia

That's why I keep messing up the names. It's Gennady of Novgorod whom I referring to.