What Makes Creationism a Valid Scientific Alternative?

[rikerjoe]

Receding waters from a global flood would wash away much of this evidence. Even small local floods do this.

No, they don't. They may wash away what was there before, but they leave evidence all by their own.

 

[CabVet]

My galactic traveler has toured the entire universe and found no life, or biology. What is 'natural' on earth is so unique in the universe as to be quite 'un'natural in the greater context.

Oh, so your traveler is really a supernatural ghost that knows nothing about biology?

 

[quilbilly]

Everyone was hiding from your galactic traveler. Didn't you get the memo?

 

[miamited]

What Makes Creationism a Valid Scientific Alternative?
God.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

 

[verysincere]

What Makes Creationism a Valid Scientific Alternative?
God.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

I'm a Bible-affirming Christian but I don't understand the question and your answer. I certainly affirm God as Creator but my reasons are not scientific. If "creationism" is referring to "Young Earth Creationism", I certainly can't make a case for it from scientific evidence or from any scriptural evidence. And you can't use the scientific method to make "creationism" a scientific theory or even "to prove God." So how is creationism a SCIENTIFIC alternative. It makes no sense---unless you decide to change the definition of science. Is that your intention or meaning?

 

[verysincere]

Receding waters from a global flood would wash away much of this evidence. Even small local floods do this.

You clearly haven't studied geology. Your statement is rubbish. Do you ACTUALLY believe that "even small local floods" erase all evidence of their own occurrence? Who told you that? (Do you understand why people get frustrated with the adamant claims of YECs when they ignore all scientific evidence?)

 

[verysincere]

While you may include God in everything science leaves him out of everything.

So are you saying that even though Isaac Newton was a Bible-believing Christian and believed in the Creator, when he formulated the Laws of Motion and described the Laws of Gravity, he was "leaving God out"???

Science neither includes or excludes God. Science is what the scientific method can study. Unless you can tell me that you have a "God tester" device or a "God measuring meter" that can be used by scientists to determine the role of God in natural processes, why do you insist on merging THEOLOGY with SCIENCE? Science has a particular definition. Requiring science to include something which it can't measure or detect is ridiculous. It is a kind of lie! It is up to THEOLOGY to describe the role of God in natural sciences. But science itself simply lacks the tools and procedures. If a Christian says, "The God of the Bible created gravity" and some other religion says that their PANTHEON of gods created gravity, are you going to claim that science can use its methodologies to resolve the debate and tell you who created everything? If you truly think science "must include God", then you must tell us all right now how science can do that.

If you can't do it, you've proven my point: Science doesn't "leave out God". Science simply has no means to make statements about God. You are simply insisting that THEOLOGY must somehow be inserted into the scientific method even though you can't tell us how that makes any sense.

Does orchestral MUSIC "leave out God"? After all, an orchestra has no means of saying anything about God. So are orchestra musicians atheists? Does arithmetic "leave out God"? If yes, will you tell us that arithmetic is atheistic?

I doubt that you have any idea what science is or what the scientific method is about. If you did, you wouldn't have expect science to somehow "include God." As a Christian who accepts the Bibles teachings, I utterly reject your claims. They are not only invalid, they are dishonest. But I suppose you can feel that by insisting on "including God", you have somehow made a profound statement. (Perhaps you could start by denouncing Isaac Newton, a Christian believer, for "leaving out God" from all of the laws and theories of physics he proposed.)

 

[mathetes123]

I'm a Bible-affirming Christian but I don't understand the question and your answer. I certainly affirm God as Creator but my reasons are not scientific. If "creationism" is referring to "Young Earth Creationism", I certainly can't make a case for it from scientific evidence or from any scriptural evidence. And you can't use the scientific method to make "creationism" a scientific theory or even "to prove God." So how is creationism a SCIENTIFIC alternative. It makes no sense---unless you decide to change the definition of science. Is that your intention or meaning?

As a bible affirming Christian, how do you reconcile the creation account in genesis with evolution?

 

[CabVet]

As a bible affirming Christian, how do you reconcile the creation account in genesis with evolution?

Same way he reconciles gravity with Jesus walking on water.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Receding waters from a global flood would wash away much of this evidence. Even small local floods do this.

No, no they don't. They wash away what was there already, leaving behind very distinctive traces of a flood. They don't wash away their own evidence - that makes no sense.

 

[Loudmouth]

By believing what He says about it (He says that he created diseases for the purpose of inflicting man).

How does that help us understand what causes malaria? Please be specific.

Yup. Pretty good, eh?

When you have to create fantasies to justify other fantasies, what does that say about your position?

 

[Loudmouth]

Receding waters from a global flood would wash away much of this evidence. Even small local floods do this.

Receding waters would create deposits. Where are they?

 

[Loudmouth]

My galactic traveler has toured the entire universe and found no life, or biology. What is 'natural' on earth is so unique in the universe as to be quite 'un'natural in the greater context.

Unnatural is not a synonym for rare. Do us a favor and buy a thesaurus.

 

[mathetes123]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/features/worldwide-flood-evidence

When the Bible refers to a worldwide Flood in Genesis 7-8, that's exactly what it means. Not local, not metaphorical, not some crazy dream--the waters covered the whole earth. Don't just take our word for it, though. Take a look at the evidence right beneath your feet.

Evidence 1Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over the continents

We find fossils of sea creatures in rock layers that cover all the continents. For example, most of the rock layers in the walls of Grand Canyon (more than a mile above sea level) contain marine fossils. Fossilized shellfish are even found in the Himalayas.
Focus in: High & Dry Sea Creatures

Evidence 2 Rapid burial of plants and animals

We find extensive fossil "graveyards" and exquisitely preserved fossils. For example, billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand). The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.
Focus in: The World's a Graveyard

Evidence 3 Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas

We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents--even between continents--and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia. Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.
Focus in: Transcontinental Rock Layers

Evidence 4 Sediment transported long distances

We find that the sediments in those widespread, rapidly deposited rock layers had to be eroded from distant sources and carried long distances by fast-moving water. For example, the sand for the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon (Arizona) had to be eroded and transported from the northern portion of what is now the United States and Canada. Furthermore, water current indicators (such as ripple marks) preserved in rock layers show that for "300 million years" water currents were consistently flowing from northeast to southwest across all of North and South America, which, of course, is only possible over weeks during a global Flood.
Focus in: Sand Transported Cross Country

Evidence 5 Rapid or no erosion between strata

We find evidence of rapid erosion, or even of no erosion, between rock layers. Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion. For example, there is no evidence of any "missing" millions of years (of erosion) in the flat boundary between two well-known layers of Grand Canyon--the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Formation. Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.
Focus in: No Slow and Gradual Erosion

Evidence 6 Many strata laid down in rapid succession

Rocks do not normally bend; they break because they are hard and brittle. But in many places we find whole sequences of strata that were bent without fracturing, indicating that all the rock layers were rapidly deposited and folded while still wet and pliable before final hardening. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon is folded at a right angle (90°) without evidence of breaking. Yet this folding could only have occurred after the rest of the layers had been deposited, supposedly over "480 million years," while the Tapeats Sandstone remained wet and pliable.
Focus in: Rock Layers Folded, Not Fractured

What now?

The Bible's history is reliable throughout--from the creation of man from the dust of the ground to the worldwide Flood to the coming of Jesus Christ. But just reading the evidence isn't enough. The message of salvation founded in the Bible's history is also true, and, God wants us to accept the gift of salvation He freely offers us.
The evidence is real. God has revealed Himself to us in His Word and in His creation (Romans 1:20).

 

[Trogool]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/features/worldwide-flood-evidence

When the Bible refers to a worldwide Flood in Genesis 7-8, that's exactly what it means. Not local, not metaphorical, not some crazy dream--the waters covered the whole earth. Don't just take our word for it, though. Take a look at the evidence right beneath your feet.

Evidence 1Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over the continents

We find fossils of sea creatures in rock layers that cover all the continents. For example, most of the rock layers in the walls of Grand Canyon (more than a mile above sea level) contain marine fossils. Fossilized shellfish are even found in the Himalayas.
Focus in: High & Dry Sea Creatures

Evidence 2 Rapid burial of plants and animals

We find extensive fossil "graveyards" and exquisitely preserved fossils. For example, billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand). The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.
Focus in: The World's a Graveyard

Evidence 3 Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas

We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents--even between continents--and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia. Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.
Focus in: Transcontinental Rock Layers

Evidence 4 Sediment transported long distances

We find that the sediments in those widespread, rapidly deposited rock layers had to be eroded from distant sources and carried long distances by fast-moving water. For example, the sand for the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon (Arizona) had to be eroded and transported from the northern portion of what is now the United States and Canada. Furthermore, water current indicators (such as ripple marks) preserved in rock layers show that for "300 million years" water currents were consistently flowing from northeast to southwest across all of North and South America, which, of course, is only possible over weeks during a global Flood.
Focus in: Sand Transported Cross Country

Evidence 5 Rapid or no erosion between strata

We find evidence of rapid erosion, or even of no erosion, between rock layers. Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion. For example, there is no evidence of any "missing" millions of years (of erosion) in the flat boundary between two well-known layers of Grand Canyon--the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Formation. Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.
Focus in: No Slow and Gradual Erosion

Evidence 6 Many strata laid down in rapid succession

Rocks do not normally bend; they break because they are hard and brittle. But in many places we find whole sequences of strata that were bent without fracturing, indicating that all the rock layers were rapidly deposited and folded while still wet and pliable before final hardening. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon is folded at a right angle (90°) without evidence of breaking. Yet this folding could only have occurred after the rest of the layers had been deposited, supposedly over "480 million years," while the Tapeats Sandstone remained wet and pliable.
Focus in: Rock Layers Folded, Not Fractured

What now?

The Bible's history is reliable throughout--from the creation of man from the dust of the ground to the worldwide Flood to the coming of Jesus Christ. But just reading the evidence isn't enough. The message of salvation founded in the Bible's history is also true, and, God wants us to accept the gift of salvation He freely offers us.
The evidence is real. God has revealed Himself to us in His Word and in His creation (Romans 1:20).

Yeah, so we all know that answers in genesis is a lying hoax website. How about you try using actual science instead of stuff AiG made up?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[mathetes123]

Yeah, so we all know that answers in genesis is a lying hoax website. How about you try using actual science instead of stuff AiG made up?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Nice try. Anyone can try to discredit sources. How about refuting the claims of the article.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Oh, so your traveler is really a supernatural ghost that knows nothing about biology?

He knows that it is unique to the earth.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Unnatural is not a synonym for rare. Do us a favor and buy a thesaurus.

Did you misunderstand what I said?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, they don't. They may wash away what was there before, but they leave evidence all by their own.

So subsequent floods could wash away evidence of the great flood in many places.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I'm sure if I searched, I could find a refutation of all of these points, but I'll do it again, because what the heck. In short, these arguments are devised by people with only a cursory knowledge of geology.

Evidence 1Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over the continents

We find fossils of sea creatures in rock layers that cover all the continents. For example, most of the rock layers in the walls of Grand Canyon (more than a mile above sea level) contain marine fossils. Fossilized shellfish are even found in the Himalayas.
Focus in: High & Dry Sea Creatures

Geology has an explanation for this: plate tectonics. In the case of the Himalaya, those rocks were originally at sea level, then were uplifted as India collided with Asia. Actually, the Himalaya are a great example because we can actively measure the movement of India relative to Asia and the upward motion of the mountains using GPS.

Evidence 2 Rapid burial of plants and animals

We find extensive fossil "graveyards" and exquisitely preserved fossils. For example, billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand). The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.
Focus in: The World's a Graveyard

Are all of these catastrophic events in the same geologic layers? No. And why do we not see any modern species in these catastrophic deposits? No geologist will deny the fact that catastrophic events have occurred in the past - the problem comes when people attempt to relate them to a single event. Catastrophic deposits are in no way evidence for a global flood.

Evidence 3 Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas

We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents--even between continents--and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia. Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.
Focus in: Transcontinental Rock Layers

No one argues that these layers are widespread. However, while they are widespread across North America, I would expect them to be present all over the world if there truly had been a global flood. This is not the case. They also could not have been deposited rapidly. For example, the Redwall Limestone was deposited primarily by chemical processes - the precipitation of calcium carbonate from seawater, which is a very slow process. Moreover, it shows evidence of karst topography, which is formed when a solid limestone body is exposed to the surface, forming large cave complexes as groundwater dissolves the rock (i.e. Mammoth Cave in Kentucky). This shows that, not only was the Redwall deposited slowly, it also was solidified and exposed to the surface for thousands to millions of years before being re-buried. The Coconino argument is silly as well - we see animal tracks and raindrop impressions on the dune surfaces. Unless you can find me tarantulas and lizards that can walk underwater with a normal gait and a place where it rains underwater, the argument that it was formed by water is completely invalid.

Evidence 4 Sediment transported long distances

We find that the sediments in those widespread, rapidly deposited rock layers had to be eroded from distant sources and carried long distances by fast-moving water. For example, the sand for the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon (Arizona) had to be eroded and transported from the northern portion of what is now the United States and Canada. Furthermore, water current indicators (such as ripple marks) preserved in rock layers show that for "300 million years" water currents were consistently flowing from northeast to southwest across all of North and South America, which, of course, is only possible over weeks during a global Flood.
Focus in: Sand Transported Cross Country

Sand can be transported by rivers and wind. Ripples marks are also formed on wind-blown dunes. See above for reasons why the Coconino was not deposited underwater.

Evidence 5 Rapid or no erosion between strata

We find evidence of rapid erosion, or even of no erosion, between rock layers. Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion. For example, there is no evidence of any "missing" millions of years (of erosion) in the flat boundary between two well-known layers of Grand Canyon--the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Formation. Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.
Focus in: No Slow and Gradual Erosion

No, flat boundaries do not indicate continuous deposition. If deposition were continuous, different types of rocks would grade gradually into each other. In fact, sharp boundaries are indicators of erosion.

Evidence 6 Many strata laid down in rapid succession

Rocks do not normally bend; they break because they are hard and brittle. But in many places we find whole sequences of strata that were bent without fracturing, indicating that all the rock layers were rapidly deposited and folded while still wet and pliable before final hardening. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon is folded at a right angle (90°) without evidence of breaking. Yet this folding could only have occurred after the rest of the layers had been deposited, supposedly over "480 million years," while the Tapeats Sandstone remained wet and pliable.
Focus in: Rock Layers Folded, Not Fractured

The behavior of rocks is highly dependent on several factors. If force is applied gradually over time, a rock can bend without breaking. If the rock has been heated to a higher temperature, it can bend without breaking. High pressures can contain a body of rock and prevent it from fracturing. If force is applied rapidly at atmospheric conditions, then yes, it will break rather than bend. Take glass as an example - if you hit it with a hammer, it will break, but if you applied force slowly and steadily over a long period of time, it would gradually deform, especially if heated. So it is indeed possible for solid rocks to deform without fracturing.

Furthermore, fractures can also occur on a micro scale - too small to be visible in a picture. I'll even point out that Figure 3 (Carbon Canyon) in the expanded article does indeed have a fault running through the core of one of the folds.

In closing, I'd like to point out several overarching flaws in this article. First of all, it focuses on the Grand Canyon, which, while impressive, represents a relatively small portion of the world's rocks. There is cursory mention of other localities (Dover, etc), but the article makes no attempt to tie them to any other formations. Second, it ignores the most obvious flaw with any accounting of a global flood: the fossil succession. There is no place where human fossils are found together with non-modern species. Period. There is no reasonable explanation for this at all in the context of a flood.