what makes a hymn a hymn?

[Tranceformer110]

What are they? Are they just old christian songs that are still popular? Do they have to be written a certain way? Is it possible for a popular song today to be a hymn in 75 years?

 

[Joshua Howard]

The Oxford Dictionary defines a 'hymn' as "a religious song of praise, especially a Christian song in praise of God." Therefore, by common definition, a hymn is not defined by age or date of composition.

I would consider a hymn to be anything that falls into a traditional melodic harmony...(Similarly fashioned to the older music) ...That is technically wrong, as seen above, but that is what I've always thought anyway, when associating music with the term 'hymn'.

 

[Maeyken]

I think the commonly held definition of "hymn" relates more to the musical style than the sort of song it is. There are some newer worship songs that I think are hymns- in that they are written in that style. (and now of course because I am trying to think of them I can't!)

 

[Tranceformer110]

I think the commonly held definition of "hymn" relates more to the musical style than the sort of song it is. There are some newer worship songs that I think are hymns- in that they are written in that style. (and now of course because I am trying to think of them I can't!)

In Christ Alone maybe?(not the Michael English version that was overplayed on radio ) or How Deep the Father's Love? They sound like hymns to me, but were written in the 90s

 

[Shep7]

Because hymnn's not a her?
(Just being funny)

 

[UncleFud]

What are they? Are they just old christian songs that are still popular? Do they have to be written a certain way? Is it possible for a popular song today to be a hymn in 75 years?

I'm not certain I can answer the question, but let's take a look at some common characteristics found in hymns:

-They are harmonized in traditional SATB harmony, thus eliminating the necessity of even keyboard accompaniment for performance (provided the congregation can sight sing.)

The harmonization of hymns (chords, in today's parlance) almost always demonstrates a trained understanding of progression (this chord relates nicely naturally to that one, etc.) and is often very dramatic and advanced. Counterpoint is not unusual. Check out Bach's read on "A Mighty Fortress."

-There a number of verses, each leading to the 'payoff' or 'critical mass' of what the lyricist is trying to convey. The verses, typically are written in sublime poetry (check the 3rd verse of "And Can It Be" - wow!!! - or the last verse of "It Is Well With My Soul"). Almost any hymn text demonstrates a stunning and soul-stirring command of language.

-Hymns are rooted in strong theology, and hymn texts often are simply a poetic expression of theology. Lest that sound dry as dust, that theology boils down to salvation through Christ's atoning sacrifice. Not too dry, after all.

I could go on, but these ingredients went into the hymnody for a reason: to honor God with the highest caliber of human expression, and to uplift the saints in times which were considerably tougher than the present.

Loaded question: can the same be said for a 2 line praise song? You know: one line, over and over, chorus, the same line, again, over and over, chorus, ad nauseum. Food for thought (maybe).

 

[UncleRicky]

Loaded question: can the same be said for a 2 line praise song? You know: one line, over and over, chorus, the same line, again, over and over, chorus, ad nauseum. Food for thought (maybe).

Greetings Uncle Fud,

I think you sumed it up quite well. I have for some years now been disapointed with to-days Christian music. It's OK in small doses, but I find the lyrics mostly insipid, and the melody's quite simplistic.

I have often wondered what kind of contemporary Christian songs we would be enjoying today if people like Cole Porter, Fats Waller, Gershwin, etc. had been Christians. Those folks really knew how to write great music.

What do you think?

Cheers,
Rick

 

[UncleFud]

Greetings Uncle Fud,

I think you sumed it up quite well. I have for some years now been disapointed with to-days Christian music. It's OK in small doses, but I find the lyrics mostly insipid, and the melody's quite simplistic.

I have often wondered what kind of contemporary Christian songs we would be enjoying today if people like Cole Porter, Fats Waller, Gershwin, etc. had been Christians. Those folks really knew how to write great music.

What do you think?

Cheers,
Rick

I have often wondered what kind of contemporary Christian songs we would be enjoying today if people like Cole Porter, Fats Waller, Gershwin, etc. had been Christians. Those folks really knew how to write great music.

Hello Brother Rick,
Yes, your hypothetical poses fascinating possiblilities. The complexion of modern/popular sacred music would be greatly changed --IMHO, for the better. Jerome Kern's "All the Things You Are" could almost pass for a sacred anthem as it sits. And Johnny Mandel's "The Shadow of Your Smile" could easily be adapted to "The Passion of Our Lord" (try singing the line). Irving Berlin's "How Deep is the Ocean" could go "How Great Our Lord's Suff'ring", or something to that effect.

Deal is, the secular marketplace, back in the day anyway, wanted a good musical product. There was an appreciation of a lovely lyric (ala Johnny Mercer), and memorable melody -- Gershwin, et al. Not every 'songwriter' found a place at the table, because there was a certain musical standard to measure up to.

Yeah, I guess it bugs me some that modern Christian music isn't held to the same critical yardstick that secular music is. If it's new, and about the Lord, it's 'good', a priori. That kind of blindspot really doesn't serve the Christian mission or community well.

There are wonderful anthems still being composed in legit and gospel styles, but these really aren't for congregational singing. The fellowship is left to sing stuff that sounds like it came off of "Kid's Bop" -- na na n' na na na - na na na n' na na na. Huh? This for Ruler of Creation? Ouch!
Have a blessed day and weekend, UF

 

[David Brider]

Loaded question: can the same be said for a 2 line praise song? You know: one line, over and over, chorus, the same line, again, over and over, chorus, ad nauseum. Food for thought (maybe).

I think you sumed it up quite well. I have for some years now been disapointed with to-days Christian music. It's OK in small doses, but I find the lyrics mostly insipid, and the melody's quite simplistic.

Could you perhaps give a few examples of what you see as insipid lyrics, and explain why simplistic melodies are a bad thing?

FWIW, before I became a Christian, about ten years ago, I was exposed mainly to traditional hymnody. Since becoming a Christian I've been involved with fellowships and churches that have used or at least been open to the newer worship songs. And over that time I've realised that really, the notion that if it's old it's a hymn and if it's new it isn't, just doesn't hold water. If it's a song of praise to God, then it's a hymn, and there are hymns being written constantly. It's really a fallacy to suggest that modern hymnody is somehow theologically weaker than traditional hymnody (check out the hymns of, for example, Matt Redman, Tim Hughes, or Stuart Townend if you don't believe me).

Also, despite the myth, the vast majority of contemporary hymns aren't "one line, over and over, chorus, the same line, again, over and over, chorus, ad nauseum". Many of them may be limited to, say, two or three verses and a chorus, but in terms of mere word count this is on a par with many traditional hymns, and there's rarely the sort of extreme repetition which UncleFud caricatures in his post.

The bottom line is, sure, there are good and bad hymns being written now, but then the same was true a couple of hundred years ago; over time, the worse ones have been forgotten (Charles Wesley wrote about 6000 hymns; how many of those are still sung today even in Methodist churches?). Over time the same will be true of the hymns being written today.

David.

 

[UncleRicky]

David.[/quote]

Greetings to you David,

Could you perhaps give a few examples of what you see as insipid lyrics, and explain why simplistic melodies are a bad thing?

Not necessarily. Simple can be beautiful. The example that jumps out at me (In answer to your request for an example) are
"God is so Good"
"Be Lifted up"
"Holy and Anointed One" by John Barnett
"Praise The Name Of Jesus" by Shane Barnard
"Be the Centre" by Michael Frye

Just a few examples of insipid lyrics and simplistic melodies.
Actually, I could list hundreds.

Compare these to hymns like "Crown Him With Many Crowns" and "It Is Well With My Soul"
Lyrically, there is no comparison.

I've realised that really, the notion that if it's old it's a hymn and if it's new it isn't, just doesn't hold water. If it's a song of praise to God, then it's a hymn, and there are hymns being written constantly. It's really a fallacy to suggest that modern hymnody is somehow theologically weaker than traditional hymnody (check out the hymns of, for example, Matt Redman, Tim Hughes, or Stuart Townend if you don't believe me).

I dont think I suggested that Old = good, New = bad. I'm sorry if that's what came accross. Of course, that would be foolish. I think there is a general concensus that Hymns have more depth and weight than "Praise Songs", however, that was not the thrust of my post.

I play with several musical groups. A Scottish dance band, Bluegrass band, 70's rock group, a Jazz group, and a few worship groups.
Melodically, the worship groups tend to put me to sleep, particularly when playing praise songs and choruses. (So does the Rock group come to think of it) Any 15 year old with one month's experience on the guitar can move through the chord changes to the songs I listed above.
If I'm bored, I can only imagine how God feels about it.

I would love to be able to write music that puts a grin on God's face, and causes His toes to tap.

The bottom line is, sure, there are good and bad hymns being written now, but then the same was true a couple of hundred years ago; over time, the worse ones have been forgotten (Charles Wesley wrote about 6000 hymns; how many of those are still sung today even in Methodist churches?). Over time the same will be true of the hymns being written today.

David.

Quite true. Well stated.
Mostly though, I find that what passes for christian music today uninteresting and uninspiring.

Maybe that's more my problem than the music's though. But given that I have 50 years experience enjoying music, I doubt it.

Anyway, I didn't expect to get into a debate over what's good, I was just musing about "What if Gershwin, Porter...

Never mind.

I bet the music in Heaven will be GREAT!

Cheers,
Rick

http://unclerickysperigrinations.blogspot.com/