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What makes a creationist a creationist?

Darkness27

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Im not talking about categories here, I was talking about the two different ways you used the word, "evolution." Go to your local library and get a dictionary. Or got to Dictionary.com and look up the word since you seem to believe there is one whenever there isn't.

I assure you I know more about evolution than you do, and I don't need to look it up in a dictionary. In fact the dictionary definition is probably not a good place to start understanding what evolution really is. There are different ways evolution is used; biological evolution (what were talking about), stellar evolution (how stars go through their life stages), chemical evolution (also known as abiogenesis and not biological evolution). In biological evolution there is only one evolution, but it is broken into micro and macro. Micro as changes with in species while macro deals with speciation. Lots of micro equals macro.

You cannot observe evolution happening.

Yes we have.

It has to take the course of millions of years.

No it doesn't. How do you think evolutionary theory says dinosaurs evolved into birds? That a dino laid an egg and a blue jay popped out? Because that is not how it works. Over millions of years each generation changes slightly and over those millions of years we can see radical changes.

If the earth was not billions of years (according to evolution) we would still be around the fish/mammal part of the process. We not be humans. You take what you said, If the earth was young say (10,000 years). Then you take the evolution model of the earth is billions of years old. Place that time (10,000y) whenever the first living organism was available. Add ten thousands years, where are we? Were still in the water, but were on land today how can this be? Evolution occurs over the course of millions of years.

I think you missed the substance of that part in my post. If God created everything as said in Genesis (with the same natural laws) we would still see evolution because there would still be mutations, genetic drift and so on.

You deny the Genesis Creation account. You say we came from 'fossils' God says we come from him by the dust of the ground. How absurd. To put your faith in the assumptions of scientists that say were from fossils.

Despite I didn't say we came from fossils (I said that fossils were evidence), fossils are essentially minerals from the ground, and closer to dust than what we actually came from.

Do you just accept everything your pastor/minister says about the Bible? Or do you look into the Bible yourself and see if what they say aligns with what you read in the Bible? At some level, even if you do the later, you must realize that they know so much more than you do and you have to trust that what they are saying is true. It is the same way with science, the layman can look at a lot of the evidence themselves and see that what scientists are saying is correct. At the same time every layman, and even professionals, must admit that they don't and can't know everything and they must trust that other scientists will tell the truth of their findings.

My view of God is not to small. Can you say fallacy of ad hominem: abusive. Just because you lack the knowledge of Creation does not mean my view of God is small.

And what is this knowledge you speak of? All I'm saying is that the YEC view of God is very restrictive and in many respects too small for our modern world.

This is where you are wrong about your logical reasonings. Creationists have there "foundation" set on GOD sets the truth. They take the Bible and plce it on the evidence and it is still consistent with what they get.

YEC tries to fit the evidence into their view of a literal Genesis, but the evidence doesn't support that claim. Going into the specifics is probably not appropriate for this area, perhaps origins or the creo-evo debate under the life sciences forum would be better.

For example; The fossil record goes correctly with the Bible. How? The Flood of Noah. How about the Grand Canyon formed? How? The Flood of Noah.

This is just not what the evidence presents.

If you do not how this is possible, don't comit another prejudicial conjecture go to Creation : A Creation and Science History Project and find some answers or just do your homework before you post something.

The link isn't very well categorized, and I doubt I would be able to find anything specific if I looked. But if you have a link that shows how the evidence fits a global flood and it formed the grand canyon post it.

(This is a post to search Creationist wise not look at evidences that the flood didn't happen by evolution.) This is where 2 Peter 3:3-9 is a prophesy. In this book chapter and verses. It says in the last days there will be "scoffers" (Isaiah 5:19-22 -- I think). Then it says people will be willingly ignorant of the word of God.

I find it amusing that I said that I can see why 2 Peter could be viewed as a prophesy, although I don't agree that is what is it, but instead of showing me how Romans 1 or 3 is prophesy you decide to post about 2 Peter instead.

You see, Evolutionists do exactly this. They believe that the earth will continue to go on just like the time from Creation til now and for millions of more years. Then it says they are willingly ignorant of word of God.

As Dark Lite is trying to get you to understand, evolution doesn't say anything other than explain why there is diversity in life. To draw any other conclusions from evolutionary theory is not scientific but falls into realms such as philosophy and theology.


Evolutionists do exactly what this says. They are and you are you are willingly ignorant of the word of God.

Good luck convincing the vast majority of Christians that they are willingly ignorant of God's word.

a. If evolution had nothing to do with laws of logic, then how are you right now here making 'weak' arguments against Creation?

This has nothing to do with evolution.

b. Evolution cannot give a logical explanation for why they use this precondition while being rational and internally consistent. They have no basis to use this principle.

If we assume this idea (uniformity of nature) is false, than we have very little to work with. To work under the assumption that it is correct than we open up new possibilities of research. If after we do some research and the evidence doesn't quite fit with that assumption, than we might have to conclude that the assumption is incorrect. However, since we have done reasearch related to this there is no reason to question this.

c. Animals have morality?

Some, but it is a very primitive form compared to ours.

Why does an animal kill animals?

For food, protection, territory (sort of like protection). However animals don't commit genocide or start wars with each other, humans on the other hand do. Perhaps we should learn from the simplicity of animal morality.

Like saying that no 'afterlife' exists. That we also derived from animals, animals have no morality. Evolution teaches that people should a choice of what they believe.

Well evolution doesn't teach that no afterlife exists, or that animals have no morality (in fact science would disagree there), nor does evolution teach that people have a choice in what they believe, it only explains the diversity of life.

I can on to show you how evolution has caused many things we see today; abortion, homosexuality.

Evolution says nothing about that (perhaps a little on homosexuality but that is another conversation all together).

Why can't I kill your mom? Because you'd say it is wrong. Well, how come it is wrong? Because it is not right. How come it is not right? You would say cause it is murder. What basis do you on judging right or wrong? How do you know killing a person is wrong whenever you have no basis for it? After all we are just the aftermath of evolved animals over time, therefore on what basis do you have to say killing someone is wrong whenever in the evolutionary worldview, "Man decides" truth?

Science can show how basic morality, as seen in some animals like dogs, could have been selected for and with our advanced frontal lobe and cerebral cortex we could create a higher sense of morality that could serve as a selected advantage to other animals (btw, we are animals). I would say that God ultimately decides what is right and what is wrong. However, I doubt He is unsympathetic to our individual circumstances. Meaning that the principles of what is right and wrong doesn't change, but how we express those principles can.

d. This has everything with what we are talking about. Without the reliability of our senses how would we be able to do any science? If our eyes were not reliable, then how could we say the fossil record is what caused us to evolve? If our sense were not reliable tell me how cuold we do science since we cannot trust them. You even said that they 'could' be wrong. But in your eyes you have already assumed that evolution is correct just because of the beliefs of scientists. So really this is kind of like the fallacy of begging the question.

You yourself assume many things that are just wrong. Dark Lite already demonstrated how our senses can be mislead, and there are many more. Generally our senses are good enough; I'm positive I am seeing a computer screen in front of me, I'm positive I am feeling the keyboard on my fingertips, I'm positive I am hearing my dog barking at the mailman, I'm positive my dog smells really bad right now and needs a bath, I'm positive there's a blueberry jolly rancher in my mouth because I can taste it. But it has been shown that the senses are not always reliable.

e. So if you went bike riding for 10 miles one day, then you came to me and said yeah I went bike riding yesterday for ten miles. Well, How do I know your telling the truth. You would say because I remember doing it. That is showing me that you 'assume' your memory is 'reliable.' Just because you remember it does not mean I know it is true, or to everyone else. Yet again quit committing prejudicial conjectures. You have done your homework for evolution and evolution only. No creation. Memory has a lot to do with science and if you do not know this, then idk how you even know the difference between science and evolution.

You obviously don't know how memory works. It can be changed, corrupted and warped. If a bunch of people are in a room talking, nothing out of the ordinary, than a person dressed in a gorilla suit walked right in the middle of the room and out, almost no one would have seen it! Does that sound like a reliable memory? Other experiments have been done that show how the memory can be changed due to social pressures and just plain wrong. Memory is very unreliable.

f. LOL, You know evolutionists have freedom and dignity.

Sure, but evolution says nothing about them.

But what for?? They do not have justification for this. Why do they hold funeral services for their loved ones? They are just "animals." Why do they hold a funeral service for that loved one? They just went back to be fertilizer for plants. They had no meaning of purpose in this life. Evolution has no basis of accountability for having this.

You are adding things to what evolution says that clearly have nothing to do with evolution.

I also find it amusing that this country of nothing but relative morality holds a MOMENT OF SILENCE and a MEMORIAL SERVICE for MICHAEL JACKSON'S DEATH AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE WEEPING AND CRYING JUST OVER ONE GUY BUT OUT TROOPS ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR LIVES OVER IN IRAQ, THEY PUT THEIR LIFE ON THE LINE AND SOME DIE SERVING OUR COUNTRY BUT NOTHING IN THIS COUNTRY HAPPENS. (Oh there goes another soldier.)

This is more of a psychology/sociology question rather than evolution. Many people felt that Michael Jackson did a lot to touch their lives and the lives of millions, and the sudden unexpected death of that person was a shock to millions and they felt sorrow because they were touched. While any life lost or radically changed due to war in the middle east is horrible, none of them are known throughout the world, and outside of their family and friends not many people will morn them. If everyone in the world was to morn everyone who had died nothing would get done, that's why most people only morn those who they feel connected to. While it can be troublesome at times to think about, it is not necessarily a bad thing to recognize.

Thanks "Evolution" ...Families suffer because of evolution and I do not care if you Darkness see how this is possible. If you do not see it then you have very little knowledge of JUST WHAT EVOLUTION teaches other than EVOLUTION OF SPECIES.

The ToE doesn't teach anything other than the diversity of life. Anything passed that is not science. So how exactly does evolution harm families and make them suffer?

man you have your knowledge mixed up. You claim they only assume one and that is (b) well how can this be if our eyes are not reliable? One cannot view the world logically if there is no reliability for sense.

The reliability of the senses and memory is not an all or none side, the reality is somewhere in the middle. Dark Lite showed how your eyes can be deceived and I showed you how memory can be deceived.
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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The earth also has many evidences of a Young Earth. For example; Starlight(different methods than Einstein), Magnetic force of the earth, the chemicals of the sun, C14 Dating (Differently than evolutionists say.), DNA in dinosaur bones shows that dinosaurs are not millions of years old, and many more.

1. Just because the chemical properties does not match because 'science; says so does not mean it is not true. This is just an arbitrary assumption.

Your faith says you are "Catholic" and hold a theistic evolution worldview. You reject the Bible's account of origins because of the foundation of evolution, "Man decides truth." You believe in what 'man' is telling just because so-called experts who 'think' they know what they are talking about whenever they do not. They still think Carbon dating is accurate and it has been proven not be accurate. They said dinosaurs are millions of years old. Dna cannot last millions of years long.

Methodological naturalism, sometimes called scientific naturalism, is an epistemological view that is specifically concerned with practical methods for acquiring knowledge, irrespective of one's metaphysical or religious views. It requires that hypotheses be explained and tested only by reference to natural causes and events. (Wikipedia.com)

This shows that "man" determines truth by the evidence that is given in the present. How can the 'Big Bang' be tested? How about Abiogenesis? Based on Empiricism 'all knowledge is gained through observation.' The big bang cannot be observed, nor can abiogenesis. So how do we know these things are true? "Blind-Faith." Also, you faith says, "Catholic" Darkness - (Methodist) I think it is weird how you reject the biblical account of Genesis just based on what "fallible" man says over an infallible God and still think that you are okay with God whenever you are not. (Proverbs 1:7, Proverbs 1:29, Colassians 2:3 and more) State that all 'knowledge' comes from GOD himself. But according to your all's beliefs you have broke the "law of non-contradiction." You believe in JESUS and are 'supposedly' saved, but you reject His creation and the basis of all knowledge based upon man's mere opinions.

John 3:12 -

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


If God has told you about creation and you do not believe, How will you believe of the heavenly things of JESUS? This is a sad world we live in.

////////The problem is, of course, we know God is not a liar. The only possibilities remaining are either: Science is completely off-base, or Genesis is not entirely literal. And unless you feel like dismantling the entirety of scientific knowledge (it all fits together, you know), the only thing left is a non-literal Genesis reading./////////

This is the fallacy of Bifurcation. (This is committed when two propositions are presented as if they were mutually exclusive and the only two possibilities, when in fact they are not.) The Genesis account can be (and it is) is true since (God is not a liar; in which he isn't), and science can be on base as long it is consistent with the Bible in which all knowledge has come from. If the Creation account was not true, then God would be a liar, therefore you are showing inconsistency and irrationality within your own belief. This is also illogical on your part of logic. Would it be acceptable to reject an infallible, non liar God that has created everything to accept the fallible man's interpretation of evidence according to the way he see's it through the evolutionary glasses and still believe God is not a liar? This is self-refuting.

//////A global flood cannot produce what we see in rock strata today. Why are the strata uniformly layered across the world? Would a global flood not unevenly disperse things?//////

Not only do you deny creation but God's righteous judgment over the earth? You do not believe the Flood because of 'one' type of rock layers? Strata, is that the only evidence you got and also radiometric dating has been proven to be unreliable. According to the Word of GOD it did create those rock layers. Just because Man has decided that the truth is that a global flood could not have caused it, is to deny the flood. I am surprised that you have more faith in mankind's interpretation of the evidence that is fallible than the God who was infallible and died for you and created you and knew you before you were born. You are SO SURE that evolution is the way, but you have no justification for this.

To believe we came from previous life forms until abiogensis is denying creation. God says he created us from dust and that every animal produces after its own kind and evolution denies this, and you put your trust again in man just because so-called experts believed that it happened this way and not the Biblical way. No one is denying the last judgment, How can you say this whenever you just showed me you denied the first judgment? The Bible says the last days will be in times of Noah and Lot. You can exclude Noah because you do not believe in the righteous judgment there.

Okay. Take Evolution and Creation.

Creation -- Absolute Morality, non-arbitrary, God decides truth, God is the basis of knowledge, God created every being separately to reproduce after its own kind.

Evolution -- Relative morality, arbitrary, Man decides truth, Through observation(scientific method of man) is the basis of knowledge, Evolution happened through the years from abiogenesis.

How does evolution have relative morality? The basis of creation is 'GOD DECIDES TRUTH' The basis of evolution is 'MAN DECIDES TRUTH'...Evolution teaches us in the school system that we came from nothing, we have no point in life, there is no purpose. We just live and die and go back to the ground. What impression does this leave to the teenagers? To do what "THEY WANT" therefore they judge for themselves their own morality of what is 'right' or 'wrong' ... You cannot say they do not teach us that because they do. Study up on evolution in schools today. Man decides what is right or wrong according to their own pleasures. How do you think Abortion and Gay marriage has been legalized? Relative morality. People do not view abortion(murder) as wrong nor gay marriage. A criminal can kill people go to prison and get out early from 2-5 years just for GOOD BEHAVIOR. You tell me that man thinks killing is wrong because it is murder think again. Evolutionists cannot account for morality. Why is killing your mom wrong? because it is murder? Well, why is it wrong to you? We are just "animals."

You said evolution has no baring on morality then why do I have a link to a site who a family member posted to show why her son of 17 years old i think killed himself by the theory of evolution because he was taught we have no meaning of life. Tell this to the family who's SON HAD DIED!!

Empiricism is the idea that all knowledge is gained through observation. Now of course I do believe that 'some' knowledge is gained through observation -- this is perfectly consistent with Scripture. God made our senses to reliably probe the universe, so there is nothing wrong with empirical methods. Empiricists believe that all knowledge is acquired by observation or the ultimate standard by which all truth claims are tested. I do not believe this. How do empiricists know that "all knowledge is gained through observation?" Clearly this is not something that the empiricist has observed (since knowledge cannot be "seen.")So then how could anyone possibly know that empiricism itself is true, if all things are indeed known by observation? If empiricism is proved in some other way than through observation, then it refutes itself. If it did happen to be true he could never prove it. And if a person's ultimate standard is uncertain, then all his other beliefs (based on that standard) are called into question. Empiricism destroys the possibility of actually knowing anything. You have never seen God. So how do you know by what he says is true? it cannot be observed so why are you a catholic?

///Science (and evolution in particular) makes no assumptions outside of what we can test empirically.///

Big Bang not an assumption. HA! Abiogenesis not an assumption. HA! Evolution in general not an assumption. HA! Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

////////////If anything, creationism is what makes initial assumptions. It tries to fit the existing data into a literal, young Earth Biblical framework. Evolution arose the opposite way: creating a framework from the existing data.//////////

This is an illogical claim. You assume that Creationists make 'assumptions' and that evolution does not make any. The way you stated the creation part is perfectly consistent and rational. Evolution is irrational by the Fallacy of reification. They believe the evidence "says" that this is millions of years, and the etc... But the evidence says no such a thing. This is just a blind0faith assumption what is 'believed' to happened and the 'believed' age about it just like the dinosaur thing.

lol, Why is our memory reliable in the evolutionary worldview? They have no basis for this. Our brains have evolved over time by chemical reactions to make the eyes, ears, emotions, love, hate, feelings, dreams, and all the more available all by random chemical reactions that have abilities to give us knowledge. Seems very logical hahahaha.

There is no morality in evolution but you believe in evolution and JESUS, so which is it? The Bible has Morality but evolution does not. So which one are you going to contradict? To believe in evolution means you have no morality. But to believe in Creation is to believe in morality. Same thing for marriage. God addressed marriage by the creation of Male and Female. How does evolution account for marriage?

lol, but why? we are evolved fish to mammals to primates to humans. We are animals. I have two questions for you two.

1. What did dinosaurs evolve from and where are the fossils for that evidence? Where are all the Billions of transitional fossils that we have not obtained but only a couple?

2. Why do we wear clothes? As fish, mammals, and primates we did not wear clothes. Why is it that humans wear clothes?

Give a logical explanation for each and the basis you find it upon while being rational and internally consistent within each worldview you have.

P.s. - I think it is odd that you reject so many things about the Bible, but only believe the parts you want to believe and say that God does not lie whenever God created everything because it says, God said it and it was so, but if he cannot lie then the genesis account is true. So you are being irrational within both worldviews here. You believe he died on that CROSS FOR YOU AND I AND BELIEVE THAT WE EVOLVED FROM PREVIOUS LIFE FORMS! HOW ABSURD TO THE LORD OUR GOD!
 
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Dark_Lite

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The earth also has many evidences of a Young Earth. For example; Starlight(different methods than Einstein), Magnetic force of the earth, the chemicals of the sun, C14 Dating (Differently than evolutionists say.), DNA in dinosaur bones shows that dinosaurs are not millions of years old, and many more.

Got references from peer-reviewed scientific journals for those? I'm not so sure.

1. Just because the chemical properties does not match because 'science; says so does not mean it is not true. This is just an arbitrary assumption.
Or, a conclusion based on the available evidence.

They still think Carbon dating is accurate and it has been proven not be accurate. They said dinosaurs are millions of years old. Dna cannot last millions of years long.
Are you looking at old creationist pages which show the supposed "inaccuracies" of carbon-based radiometric dating? There are plenty of other radiometric dating types, you know. C-14 dating isn't good past about 5,000 years. There are other types which go far beyond that age range. Also, do you have any references for DNA not lasting millions of years? Obviously the cells and their DNA die out, but they can leave fossilized traces behind.

Methodological naturalism, sometimes called scientific naturalism, is an epistemological view that is specifically concerned with practical methods for acquiring knowledge, irrespective of one's metaphysical or religious views. It requires that hypotheses be explained and tested only by reference to natural causes and events. (Wikipedia.com)

This shows that "man" determines truth by the evidence that is given in the present.

How can the 'Big Bang' be tested? How about Abiogenesis? Based on Empiricism 'all knowledge is gained through observation.' The big bang cannot be observed, nor can abiogenesis. So how do we know these things are true? "Blind-Faith."
No it doesn't. Read the quote you posted. "It requires that hypotheses be explained and tested only by reference to natural causes and events." The word "present" isn't even in there. This makes the rest of your point about this invalid. It is impossible to truly "test" the big bang, because we weren't there to test it. What can be done, however, is replications of the event, mathematical models, simulations, etc. Abiogenesis on the other hand probably could be observed. They are making progress in that field today, actually. Several experiments such as the Miller-Urey experiment have shown how base materials can form compounds necessary for the formation of life.

As for empiricism, I agree. Not all knowledge is based on observation. Some knowledge is based on experience and observation, some is not. That's why neither rationalism or empiricism can fully capture human epistemology. A synthesis can, though.

There is no "blind faith" in science. It's guided by the evidence.

Also, you faith says, "Catholic" Darkness - (Methodist) I think it is weird how you reject the biblical account of Genesis just based on what "fallible" man says over an infallible God and still think that you are okay with God whenever you are not. (Proverbs 1:7, Proverbs 1:29, Colassians 2:3 and more) State that all 'knowledge' comes from GOD himself. But according to your all's beliefs you have broke the "law of non-contradiction." You believe in JESUS and are 'supposedly' saved, but you reject His creation and the basis of all knowledge based upon man's mere opinions.
I think it's odd that you assume to know what anyone fully believes without them telling you. Besides this having nothing to do with the law of non-contradiction, I would like to point out that we only disagree with your interpretation of scripture.

This is the fallacy of Bifurcation. (This is committed when two propositions are presented as if they were mutually exclusive and the only two possibilities, when in fact they are not.) The Genesis account can be (and it is) is true since (God is not a liar; in which he isn't), and science can be on base as long it is consistent with the Bible in which all knowledge has come from. If the Creation account was not true, then God would be a liar, therefore you are showing inconsistency and irrationality within your own belief. This is also illogical on your part of logic. Would it be acceptable to reject an infallible, non liar God that has created everything to accept the fallible man's interpretation of evidence according to the way he see's it through the evolutionary glasses and still believe God is not a liar? This is self-refuting.
Your logic is... I was going to say circular, but I'm not even sure it is. This is what your argument is:
1. The creation account is literal, because God is not a liar.
2. Science is correct if it agrees with a literal creation account.
3. Therefore, evolutionary science is wrong.

You are completely redefining what science is. It is no longer science, it is merely an extension of an already assumed interpretation on to existing data. You're cramming the evidence into the YEC box, so to speak. For it to be science, it has to go the other way around.

You do not believe the Flood because of 'one' type of rock layers?
Among other reasons.

Strata, is that the only evidence you got
There's plenty more evidence if you want it.

and also radiometric dating has been proven to be unreliable.
Only according to creationist organizations who misunderstand how it works and forget that there's other radiometric dating types besides C-14.

According to the Word of GOD it did create those rock layers.
Citation?

Just because Man has decided that the truth is that a global flood could not have caused it, is to deny the flood.
Well yes, generally speaking, denying something happened means... denying it...

You are SO SURE that evolution is the way, but you have no justification for this.
Life is my justification. History is my justification. The world is my justification. The universe is my justification.

To believe we came from previous life forms until abiogensis is denying creation.
Denying a creation as literally described in Genesis, you mean.

God says he created us from dust and that every animal produces after its own kind and evolution denies this, and you put your trust again in man just because so-called experts believed that it happened this way and not the Biblical way.
I put my trust in what the creation says, and it certainly isn't that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

No one is denying the last judgment, How can you say this whenever you just showed me you denied the first judgment? The Bible says the last days will be in times of Noah and Lot. You can exclude Noah because you do not believe in the righteous judgment there.
There is the little part about God saying he would never again destroy the world via flood. I never denied any judgment. I denied a physically impossible global flood. You must learn to separate literality from the truth of a message.

Creation -- Absolute Morality, non-arbitrary, God decides truth, God is the basis of knowledge, God created every being separately to reproduce after its own kind.

Evolution -- Relative morality, arbitrary, Man decides truth, Through observation(scientific method of man) is the basis of knowledge, Evolution happened through the years from abiogenesis.
The only thing correct in either of those defintions are the last parts. That is, "God created every being separately to reproduce after its own kind" and "Evolution happened to the years from abiogenesis." The rest are philosophical applications of the definitions and are therefore irrelevant. God's qualities have nothing to do with the way he created the universe. Evolution has nothing to do with morality. You've gone beyond comparing apples and oranges; you are taking apples and oranges, putting them in a blender, and making a fruit smoothie. While possibly delicious, it's still erroneous.

That being the case, the rest of your argument falls and it is unnecessary to address it further.

You said evolution has no baring on morality then why do I have a link to a site who a family member posted to show why her son of 17 years old i think killed himself by the theory of evolution because he was taught we have no meaning of life. Tell this to the family who's SON HAD DIED!!
Besides the link probably being from a horribly skewed page that doesn't present the story in its entirety, someone who commits suicide has far deeper problems than their acceptance or non-acceptance of a scientific theory.

Clearly this is not something that the empiricist has observed (since knowledge cannot be "seen.")So then how could anyone possibly know that empiricism itself is true, if all things are indeed known by observation? If empiricism is proved in some other way than through observation, then it refutes itself. If it did happen to be true he could never prove it. And if a person's ultimate standard is uncertain, then all his other beliefs (based on that standard) are called into question. Empiricism destroys the possibility of actually knowing anything. You have never seen God. So how do you know by what he says is true? it cannot be observed so why are you a catholic?
Uh... I never said I was empiricist, and I denied that empiricism only was a valid epistemological position. Therefore, this paragraph has no bearing on anything.

Big Bang not an assumption. HA! Abiogenesis not an assumption. HA! Evolution in general not an assumption. HA! Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
All were arrived at via conclusions based the available evidence and/or experimentation.

Big bang: cosmic background radiation.
Evolution: Pretty much all of biology.
Abiogenesis: Miller-Urey experiment, recent experiments with RNA (can't remember the name).

Instead of just saying "wrong, wrong, wrong," you need to back up your claim.

This is an illogical claim. You assume that Creationists make 'assumptions' and that evolution does not make any. The way you stated the creation part is perfectly consistent and rational. Evolution is irrational by the Fallacy of reification. They believe the evidence "says" that this is millions of years, and the etc... But the evidence says no such a thing. This is just a blind0faith assumption what is 'believed' to happened and the 'believed' age about it just like the dinosaur thing.
The "assumptions" that evolution made were based on what Darwin observed in the Galapagos wildlife and all of that. As demonstrated above, creationism has been shown to go off of already-determined assumptions. The theory of evolution came from the new foundations of modern biology. Indeed, it is one of the current foundations of biology. There is no blind faith in science. There is the evidence, there are hypotheses, and there are tested hypotheses (theories).

There is no morality in evolution but you believe in evolution and JESUS, so which is it? The Bible has Morality but evolution does not. So which one are you going to contradict? To believe in evolution means you have no morality. But to believe in Creation is to believe in morality. Same thing for marriage. God addressed marriage by the creation of Male and Female. How does evolution account for marriage?
Since it has been demonstrated that morality is completely divorced from the way the world and universe were created, this is irrelevant. As Darkness said, it *could* be possible that our moral "circuitry" arose from evolution, but even then, that only supports morality since it would give an explanation for why humans believe the way they do about murder, stealing, etc. But for the Christian theistic evolutionist, God is still the ultimate answer.

1. What did dinosaurs evolve from and where are the fossils for that evidence? Where are all the Billions of transitional fossils that we have not obtained but only a couple?
Fossilization is a rare event. That being said, we have recovered plenty. List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. Why do we wear clothes? As fish, mammals, and primates we did not wear clothes. Why is it that humans wear clothes?
Because otherwise we'd freeze to death in the winter? Humans don't have enough body hair to keep them warm during extremely cold months. As far as theistic evolution is concerned, it may also have to do with our soul and the morality arising from God.
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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Got references from peer-reviewed scientific journals for those? I'm not so sure.

Or, a conclusion based on the available evidence.

Are you looking at old creationist pages which show the supposed "inaccuracies" of carbon-based radiometric dating? There are plenty of other radiometric dating types, you know. C-14 dating isn't good past about 5,000 years. There are other types which go far beyond that age range. Also, do you have any references for DNA not lasting millions of years? Obviously the cells and their DNA die out, but they can leave fossilized traces behind.

No it doesn't. Read the quote you posted. "It requires that hypotheses be explained and tested only by reference to natural causes and events." The word "present" isn't even in there. This makes the rest of your point about this invalid. It is impossible to truly "test" the big bang, because we weren't there to test it. What can be done, however, is replications of the event, mathematical models, simulations, etc. Abiogenesis on the other hand probably could be observed. They are making progress in that field today, actually. Several experiments such as the Miller-Urey experiment have shown how base materials can form compounds necessary for the formation of life.

As for empiricism, I agree. Not all knowledge is based on observation. Some knowledge is based on experience and observation, some is not. That's why neither rationalism or empiricism can fully capture human epistemology. A synthesis can, though.

There is no "blind faith" in science. It's guided by the evidence.

I think it's odd that you assume to know what anyone fully believes without them telling you. Besides this having nothing to do with the law of non-contradiction, I would like to point out that we only disagree with your interpretation of scripture.

Your logic is... I was going to say circular, but I'm not even sure it is. This is what your argument is:
1. The creation account is literal, because God is not a liar.
2. Science is correct if it agrees with a literal creation account.
3. Therefore, evolutionary science is wrong.

You are completely redefining what science is. It is no longer science, it is merely an extension of an already assumed interpretation on to existing data. You're cramming the evidence into the YEC box, so to speak. For it to be science, it has to go the other way around.

Among other reasons.

There's plenty more evidence if you want it.

Only according to creationist organizations who misunderstand how it works and forget that there's other radiometric dating types besides C-14.

Citation?

Well yes, generally speaking, denying something happened means... denying it...

Life is my justification. History is my justification. The world is my justification. The universe is my justification.

Denying a creation as literally described in Genesis, you mean.

I put my trust in what the creation says, and it certainly isn't that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

There is the little part about God saying he would never again destroy the world via flood. I never denied any judgment. I denied a physically impossible global flood. You must learn to separate literality from the truth of a message.

The only thing correct in either of those defintions are the last parts. That is, "God created every being separately to reproduce after its own kind" and "Evolution happened to the years from abiogenesis." The rest are philosophical applications of the definitions and are therefore irrelevant. God's qualities have nothing to do with the way he created the universe. Evolution has nothing to do with morality. You've gone beyond comparing apples and oranges; you are taking apples and oranges, putting them in a blender, and making a fruit smoothie. While possibly delicious, it's still erroneous.

That being the case, the rest of your argument falls and it is unnecessary to address it further.

Besides the link probably being from a horribly skewed page that doesn't present the story in its entirety, someone who commits suicide has far deeper problems than their acceptance or non-acceptance of a scientific theory.

Uh... I never said I was empiricist, and I denied that empiricism only was a valid epistemological position. Therefore, this paragraph has no bearing on anything.

All were arrived at via conclusions based the available evidence and/or experimentation.

Big bang: cosmic background radiation.
Evolution: Pretty much all of biology.
Abiogenesis: Miller-Urey experiment, recent experiments with RNA (can't remember the name).

Instead of just saying "wrong, wrong, wrong," you need to back up your claim.

The "assumptions" that evolution made were based on what Darwin observed in the Galapagos wildlife and all of that. As demonstrated above, creationism has been shown to go off of already-determined assumptions. The theory of evolution came from the new foundations of modern biology. Indeed, it is one of the current foundations of biology. There is no blind faith in science. There is the evidence, there are hypotheses, and there are tested hypotheses (theories).

Since it has been demonstrated that morality is completely divorced from the way the world and universe were created, this is irrelevant. As Darkness said, it *could* be possible that our moral "circuitry" arose from evolution, but even then, that only supports morality since it would give an explanation for why humans believe the way they do about murder, stealing, etc. But for the Christian theistic evolutionist, God is still the ultimate answer.

Fossilization is a rare event. That being said, we have recovered plenty. List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Because otherwise we'd freeze to death in the winter? Humans don't have enough body hair to keep them warm during extremely cold months. As far as theistic evolution is concerned, it may also have to do with our soul and the morality arising from God.


lol, I refuse to talk to such ignorance. I mean I completely made good points but some of them you just totally did not understand the way I used them. I used them in a different sense than you were talking of. Oh and make 1-3 statements. So Creation organizations that have scientists with Ph.D's and very High degree's in Science, Astronomy, and etc.. All of these scientists work is false just because the other scientists who are working for evolutionary organizations with the same or higher/lower degree's have their presuppositions that are "correct?" How arbitrary. For the fact or the matter my sister is a Catholic. She does not accept evolution, because it is stupid. Prove to me we came from this fossilized structures because I do not believe it. Do not say DNA because there are different reasons for having similar DNA. Just so you know, whether you like it or not, to believe in evolution takes blind faith your just ignorant of the fact because you believe in evolution.

Also, those transitional fossils we supposedly have, why are all of them like cartoon pictures. Like drawings they are not real. Some have real pictures but most are fake why is that? Because we do not have them? Show me some REAL pictures of transitional fossils.

HAHAHA, BECAUSE WE WOULD FREEZE TO DEATH! THAT IS HILARIOUSLY STUPID! I See you don't know your Bible.
 
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Dark_Lite

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So the entirety of your argument boils down to: "Evolution takes blind faith because I said so." Obviously this won't go anywhere.

I've tried to leave out all the interspersed accusations of lack of faith, deceiving, ignorance, "not knowing the Bible," and other fun things you decide to throw in your posts when I respond, but I don't think it's possible to remove that content from your post and have anything left.

If you ever figure out how to discuss things without resorting to that kind of stuff, let me know.
 
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Darkness27

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A lot of those creationist PhD folks don't have real PhDs. They get them from degree mills which is considered immoral by mainstream people. I think Hovind got his from one of these mills and did his dissertation in crayons, very professional if I say so myself. I'm not so sure I would have got away with a paper in crayon past the third grade.

Dark Lite said C14 dating is good up to 5,000 years. That's a typo, it's really 50,000 years, and now research puts it around 60,000 years as the upper limit. And there are many other types that can go back so much further, like uranium to thorium has a half life 80,000 years. One isotope of uranium to lead has a half life of 700,000,000 and another isotope half life is 4.5Ga(billion).

WingsOfEagles, I'm sorry but you don't understand evolution, or science in general. And I'm not so sure you understand the basic stance of the theistic evolutionist. We don't deny God or his creation, we just understand that things like Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, and other stories in Genesis to not be literal, but metaphorical. This does not take away from the lessons learned from these stories, or denies the truth and power of God. While I can't speak for anyone but myself, I think this holds true to the majority of TE's.

As a last note to this post I am quite disgusted that you basically said that everyone who isn't a creationist isn't a "true Christian". The Christian message, although very powerful, is simple, and doesn't require your specific doctrine to be considered part of the body of Christ. Don't be so judgmental to other peoples beliefs, that kind of thinking is going into shaky grounds. Remember, it is not our place to judge another's heart, that is best left up to God, and for good reasons too.
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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Yeah, God said he created the whole universe and life but it is just metaphorically symbolic. Yeah, right. If you were to speak to Ken Ham or Jason Lisle they could tear you guys apart.

1. Where do you put your faith-- in the words of men who are fallible creatures who do not know everything, who were not there -- or the Words of God who is perfect, who knows everything, and who was there?

2. Do you guys believe there was death before 'Adam" ??
 
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Darkness27

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Yeah, God said he created the whole universe and life but it is just metaphorically symbolic. Yeah, right. If you were to speak to Ken Ham or Jason Lisle they could tear you guys apart.

It is not at all symbolic that He actually did, only how He did it as described in Genesis.
They might be able to, but I'm also betting that Francis Collins would tear both of them apart at the same time.

1. Where do you put your faith-- in the words of men who are fallible creatures who do not know everything, who were not there -- or the Words of God who is perfect, who knows everything, and who was there?

It is not that black and white, but I'm also betting that it doesn't matter what I say unless I submit to your inaccurate interpretation of the world.

2. Do you guys believe there was death before 'Adam" ??

Personally I don't think there was a literal 'Adam'. In the context of the story I think death was part of the Garden before and after 'the fall'. Although I don't think Adam and Eve were aware of the death until they ate from the tree.
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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It is not at all symbolic that He actually did, only how He did it as described in Genesis.
They might be able to, but I'm also betting that Francis Collins would tear both of them apart at the same time.



It is not that black and white, but I'm also betting that it doesn't matter what I say unless I submit to your inaccurate interpretation of the world.



Personally I don't think there was a literal 'Adam'. In the context of the story I think death was part of the Garden before and after 'the fall'. Although I don't think Adam and Eve were aware of the death until they ate from the tree.

1. No Ken Ham & Jason Lisle could tear Francis apart. I know they could.
2. LOL, Do you know not what to say? It is weird that you put faith in all of the other parts of the Bible except the 'foundation' ...But you put it in man's opinion because the 'experts' know how it happened..HAHA, I believe what God says because if you understand the Bible, a Literal view of Genesis reflects the whole Bible. But you cannot see that because it is all pulp fiction to you.

3. Okay, If there was death before and after the fall, When did "death" first set in? and By what did "death" come from? Because JESUS died for everyone's "Sins"...How did sin enter the world to bring death, pain, suffering and the etc..??
 
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Darkness27

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2. LOL, Do you know not what to say?

There is plenty to say, but past conversations with you tells me that unless I hold your view of creationism nothing that I say will mater. All it will do is work you up into a fit of rage and you'll just mock me without addressing the actual substance to the post. Although this might do it for you anyway, or perhaps not. So all I'm willing to say to you now is that the Bible as the literal word of God is not black and white, but a swirling mix of black, white, and all shades of gray.

It is weird that you put faith in all of the other parts of the Bible except the 'foundation'
I still have faith in Genesis, I just understand that book in a different view. If there was no point in Genesis then it would have not been in the Torah to begin with.

3. Okay, If there was death before and after the fall, When did "death" first set in? and By what did "death" come from? Because JESUS died for everyone's "Sins"...How did sin enter the world to bring death, pain, suffering and the etc..??
Death is an inevitable part of every life, as long as there is life there is death. Sin is part of our nature; no one righteous, not one, but Jesus. Through mankind sin was born, and is continuously renewed.
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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There is plenty to say, but past conversations with you tells me that unless I hold your view of creationism nothing that I say will mater. All it will do is work you up into a fit of rage and you'll just mock me without addressing the actual substance to the post. Although this might do it for you anyway, or perhaps not. So all I'm willing to say to you now is that the Bible as the literal word of God is not black and white, but a swirling mix of black, white, and all shades of gray.

I still have faith in Genesis, I just understand that book in a different view. If there was no point in Genesis then it would have not been in the Torah to begin with.

Death is an inevitable part of every life, as long as there is life there is death. Sin is part of our nature; no one righteous, not one, but Jesus. Through mankind sin was born, and is continuously renewed.

lol, That was not the answers to my questions. Death is inevitable, Yes but when did it become inevitable? When did "life" begin? Where did "sin" come from? How did it come into the world? Through whom was "sin" born? It had to have a beginning and it will have an ending according to "revelation." So, What is the beginning of it?
 
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Darkness27

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lol, That was not the answers to my questions. Death is inevitable, Yes but when did it become inevitable? When did "life" begin? Where did "sin" come from? How did it come into the world? Through whom was "sin" born? It had to have a beginning and it will have an ending according to "revelation." So, What is the beginning of it?

Death was inevitable as soon as life was on the Earth (or anywhere else if we ever find any). Life Began 3.7 billion years ago, or something like that. How life came about, I don't know, know one knows. Personally I'm for the RNA world hypothesis, but in the end it is wherever the scientific evidence falls. Did God have anything to do with the start of life? Of Course! But how He did so is a theological question and cannot be answered by science alone. Personally I think God used naturalistic means to begin life, but that doesn't mean He didn't bend the natural rules a little for it to happen.

Sin came from the evil desires of human hearts, and the unwillingness of those who could have done good, but decided not to. I see sin as an engraved feature on everyone's heart. That is why no one but Jesus could over come sin. What do you mean by "through whom sin was born?"? This might answer your question: I don't think any one person, or culture, brought sin into the world, as I'm opposed to original sin. But through our hearts desires and our actions, we create sin. I don't know when sin first entered our world, all I know is that it continuously enters through us. Hope that answers your questions. :)
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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Death was inevitable as soon as life was on the Earth (or anywhere else if we ever find any). Life Began 3.7 billion years ago, or something like that. How life came about, I don't know, know one knows. Personally I'm for the RNA world hypothesis, but in the end it is wherever the scientific evidence falls. Did God have anything to do with the start of life? Of Course! But how He did so is a theological question and cannot be answered by science alone. Personally I think God used naturalistic means to begin life, but that doesn't mean He didn't bend the natural rules a little for it to happen.

Sin came from the evil desires of human hearts, and the unwillingness of those who could have done good, but decided not to. I see sin as an engraved feature on everyone's heart. That is why no one but Jesus could over come sin. What do you mean by "through whom sin was born?"? This might answer your question: I don't think any one person, or culture, brought sin into the world, as I'm opposed to original sin. But through our hearts desires and our actions, we create sin. I don't know when sin first entered our world, all I know is that it continuously enters through us. Hope that answers your questions. :)

See, you do not even have justification of how life came about because "evolution" cannot prove 100% where we came from, but you see, as for me, I have justification of where life came from Jesus CREATED life. In the book of Mark, JESUS speaks, He himself says this just like he did in 'Genesis' but JESUS says (addressing marriage) "From the beginning of Creation God made them male and female." Basically your saying GOD used "man's methods" of the interpretations of the evidence is how 'life' came about? JESUS does everything according to Will of GOD, not mankind.

Yet again you have no Justification of how sin entered in the world but I have justification for that in the Creation view. Death entered the world by Adam, as shown in the Book of "Romans 5:12." How? By sin, they rebelled against God. Jesus tells how everything came into what we see today with pain, suffering, etc. I have justification of this by the Genesis account of Creation. I see that 'evolution' leaves you with unanswered questions that are right before your eyes in the Creation worldview but you constantly reject and deny the Genesis account of Creation. If you did not know, Genesis is the "Foundation" of the whole Bible. What do you believe about the 'last' Adam? That means there was a "first" Adam. I am really surprised that you believe fallible man's evidence over God's infallible creation.

What do you believe about the devil? The Bible says He fell from Heaven from "pride" ..In which means he was sinful but sin did not enter the world there. Now, how did "sin" enter the world, If GOD cannot create evil, but the only evil thing is the devil? What did the devil do to bring "sin" into the world?

Then Christ also referred to the end-time in the context of the beginning-times. "In those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be" (Mark 13:19).
The phrase is also used in Peter's very important prophecy concerning the scoffers of the end-times who will argue (in willful ignorance) that "all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" (II Peter 3:3-4), thereby denying that there ever was a real creation or real Creator and thus rejecting Christ Himself. But He is also the "true witness" and the "Amen," and such denials will only be "unto their own destruction" (II Peter 3:16). -- ICR(Institute for Creation Research)
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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Ignoring all of God's actual creation and taking the word of man over the evidence in what God did. Great work. God can only be confirmed in the study of his creation, yet you fight it, hence you fight God.

Thank you brother. =] You speak with wisdom and knowledge from God (Proverbs 1:7, Proverbs 1:29)
 
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MattLangley

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Thank you brother. =] You speak with wisdom and knowledge from God (Proverbs 1:7, Proverbs 1:29)

I think you misunderstand me. The Bible is a book written by man, fact. It has different translations and those different translations and the different texts do not say the exact same thing. We do -not- even have original texts, we don't know what those contained. So even if it were infallible (and I think it's silly to think a text written by man would be infallible) we don't even have that which is so, hence our Bible is far from infallible in any case or example.

On the other hand we know God created us (we disagree -how-, you say special creation, I say evolution and natural processes) hence the study of biology through Science is the only confirmable study of the acts of God. So I'll trust in God and not in what man says and stick with evolution vs. special creation as God's creation mechanism.
 
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Smidlee

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I think you misunderstand me. The Bible is a book written by man, fact. .
Thank God it wasn't written by evolutionists.
When someone is stating the Word of God is infallible they are not usually referring to the paper and ink nor the men wrote it were infallible but the truth in the written books of scripture. (of course the scriptures was not first written in English)
As a creationists I have very serious doubt this mythological creature, that eventually gave birth to all the apes and man, ever existed. Now evolutionist like to point to the similarities between ape and man which I do not deny while I a creationists points to the human mind (brain) as evidence of special creation.
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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I think you misunderstand me. The Bible is a book written by man, fact. It has different translations and those different translations and the different texts do not say the exact same thing. We do -not- even have original texts, we don't know what those contained. So even if it were infallible (and I think it's silly to think a text written by man would be infallible) we don't even have that which is so, hence our Bible is far from infallible in any case or example.

On the other hand we know God created us (we disagree -how-, you say special creation, I say evolution and natural processes) hence the study of biology through Science is the only confirmable study of the acts of God. So I'll trust in God and not in what man says and stick with evolution vs. special creation as God's creation mechanism.

Wrong, the Bible was written by man from God. Mankind did not write down according to their own will. GOD inspired the word of GOD. Meaning they told him what to write down. Read my posts above, and in the Is creation plausible. Evolution cannot answer these questions.
 
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