JAL

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Galatians is one city where someone was teaching false teachings and Paul addressed that in his letter. Not everyone even there went apostate. It does not equal a total apostasy the complete church. Neither does the seven churches in the Book of Revelation equate to a total apostasy the complete church. Mormons like to play the same game of pretending that false teaching here and there equals a total apostasy.

The text I posted shows that destruction of the Anti-Christ, Beast is shortly after the Great Total Apostasy of the complete, total, full church.

Even Catholicism of today holds to the essenitials of the gospel spelled out in I Cor 15.
Again, I think you're confusing two types of apostasy. The Galatians were off-track. Paul described their deviance in apostasy-like language. All I'm saying is that:
(1) The Galatian error soon became common to all the congregations in the world and persists today.
(2) The Galatian error is to consider it copasetic to exegetically deduce God's will (use Scripture to select leaders, define church government, perform evangelism, conduct church services, and practice obedience) instead of waiting upon the Lord for Direct Revelation to obtain these specific instructions directly from Him.

That's all I'm saying. All your talk about the Great Apostasy is a separate issue. You've created a strawman argument against me by debating an issue separate from the one that I'm debating.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Again, I think you're confusing two types of apostasy. The Galatians were off-track. Paul described their deviance in apostasy-like language. All I'm saying is that:
(1) The Galatian error soon became common to all the congregations in the world and persists today.
(2) The Galatian error is to consider it copasetic to exegetically deduce God's will (use Scripture to select leaders, define church government, perform evangelism, conduct church services, and practice obedience) instead of waiting upon the Lord for Direct Revelation to obtain these specific instructions directly from Him.

That's all I'm saying. All your talk about the Great Apostasy is a separate issue. You've created a strawman argument against me by debating an issue separate from the one that I'm debating.

Define the Galatian error. "all the congregations in the world and persists today" would be a total, great apostasy. Thus not a strawman.

Online the Galatian error is married to the term Judaizers. This is not true of "all the congregations in the world".

"The doctrine of the Judaizers was a mixture of grace (through Christ) and works (through the keeping of the Law). This false doctrine was dealt with in Acts 15 and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians."
Who were the Judaizers? | GotQuestions.org

I know many Catholics, none of which says one must keep all the 613 Torah laws to be saved.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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One does not have to "waiting upon the Lord for Direct Revelation" to know what is right. We need only walk in the Holy Spirit.

Romans 7:6
In the past the law held us as prisoners, but our old selves died, and we were made free from the law. So now we serve God in a new way, not in the old way, with the written rules. Now we serve God in the new way, with the Spirit.

Romans 8:2
That is because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit that brings life made you free. It made you free from the law that brings sin and death.

Galatians 5:18
But if you let the Spirit lead you, you are not under law.

Hebrews 7:11
The people were given the law under the system of priests from the tribe of Levi. But no one could be made spiritually perfect through that system of priests. So there was a need for another priest to come. I mean a priest like Melchizedek, not Aaron.

We do not need a direct personal revelation, just read Scripture.
 
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JAL

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Define the Galatian error. "all the congregations in the world and persists today" would be a total, great apostasy. Thus not a strawman.
(Sigh). The strawman lies not in the number of people involved but in the kind of error.

Online the Galatian error is married to the term Judaizers. This is not true of "all the congregations in the world".
Obviously you don't need Judaizers to commit the errors instigated by them.
I know many Catholics, none of which says one must keep all the 613 Torah laws to be saved.
The Galatian error, as I described it, is not a matter of salvation, despite Paul's strong language. The emphasis in Galatians is on sanctification. Again, I think you have in mind a different kind of apostasy.
 
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JAL

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One does not have to "waiting upon the Lord for Direct Revelation" to know what is right. We need only walk in the Holy Spirit.
So you've achieved infallibility?

We do not need a direct personal revelation, just read Scripture.
Prophets experienced infallibility. You're telling me that exegetes are infallible too? Can you name some infallible ones? Or are you the only one?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Claiming that matter is eternal at creation strikes me as being contrary to the nature of God.
How does the state of matter affect the nature of God? It’s like saying the state of a piece of art physically affects the artist.
 
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JAL

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One does not have to "waiting upon the Lord for Direct Revelation" to know what is right. We need only walk in the Holy Spirit.
The problem is that 2,000 years of indoctrination have caused most Christians to presume to know what it means to walk in the Holy Spirit. And yet Paul's walk with the Spirit was largely a matter of Direct Revelation. Why do most Christians presume that Paul intended something different for us?


Here's the main point. We shouldn't presume ANYTHING. Ultimately, I don't even presume that Christianity is the true religion - after all I'm fallible. Hence it only makes sense for me to pursue infallible Direct Revelation and, if I receive it one day, I hope it will confirm that Christianity is that the true religion, i.e. raise my level of certainty to 100%.

Don't get me wrong. Like all Christians, I'm 99.99999999% sure that Christianity is the true religion. If I claimed to be 100% sure, that would mean I see myself as infallible on that question. Guess what - I'm fallible.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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(Sigh). The strawman lies not in the number of people involved but in the kind of error.

Obviously you don't need Judaizers to commit the errors instigated by them.
The Galatian error, as I described it, is not a matter of salvation, despite Paul's strong language. The emphasis in Galatians is on sanctification. Again, I think you have in mind a different kind of apostasy.

Friend, you will need to define and describe the error of sanctification you have in mind.

2 Peter 1
Easy-to-Read Version

1 Greetings from Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.

To all of you who share in the same valuable faith that we have. This faith was given to us because our God and Savior Jesus Christ always does what is good and right.

2 Grace and peace be given to you more and more, because now you know God and Jesus our Lord.

God Has Given Us Everything We Need
3 Jesus has the power of God. And his power has given us everything we need to live a life devoted to God. We have these things because we know him. Jesus chose us by his glory and goodness, 4 through which he also gave us the very great and rich gifts that he promised us. With these gifts you can share in being like God. And so you will escape the ruin that comes to people in the world because of the evil things they want.

5 Because you have these blessings, do all you can to add to your life these things: to your faith add goodness; to your goodness add knowledge; 6 to your knowledge add self-control; to your self-control add patience; to your patience add devotion to God; 7 to your devotion add kindness toward your brothers and sisters in Christ, and to this kindness add love. 8 If all these things are in you and growing, you will never fail to be useful to God. You will produce the kind of fruit that should come from your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But those who don’t grow in these blessings are blind. They cannot see clearly what they have. They have forgotten that they were cleansed from their past sins.

10 My brothers and sisters, God called you and chose you to be his. Do your best to live in a way that shows you really are God’s called and chosen people. If you do all this, you will never fall. 11 And you will be given a very great welcome into the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a kingdom that never ends.

12 You already know these things. You are very strong in the truth you have. But I am always going to help you remember them. 13 While I am still living here on earth, I think it is right for me to remind you of them. 14 I know that I must soon leave this body. Our Lord Jesus Christ has shown me that. 15 I will try my best to make sure you remember these things even after I am gone.

We Saw Christ’s Glory
16 We told you about the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. We told you about his coming. The things we told you were not just clever stories that people invented. No, we saw the greatness of Jesus with our own eyes. 17 Jesus heard the voice of the great and glorious God. That was when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice said, “This is my Son, the one I love. I am very pleased with him.” 18 And we heard that voice. It came from heaven while we were with Jesus on the holy mountain.

19 This makes us more sure about what the prophets said. And it is good for you to follow closely what they said, which is like a light shining in a dark place. You have that light until the day begins and the morning star brings new light to your minds. 20 Most important of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures comes from the prophet’s own understanding. 21 No prophecy ever came from what some person wanted to say. But people were led by the Holy Spirit and spoke words from God.

Footnotes
  1. 2 Peter 1:18 This event is described in the Gospels. See Mt. 17:1-8; Mk. 9:2-8; Lk. 9:28-36.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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So you've achieved infallibility?


Prophets experienced infallibility. You're telling me that exegetes are infallible too? Can you name some infallible ones? Or are you the only one?

No, common sense, studying a text in historical cultural context. Standing on the shoulders of theological giants.
 
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Clare73

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Claiming that matter is eternal at creation strikes me as being contrary to the nature of God.

So, the claim that God is limited to eternal laws and eternal matter would limit our Lord how?
You can't be both eternal (in the sense of without beginning or ending) and created.
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
If only God is eternal, why is it called eternal life?
This is off the top of my head and I need to research this. God has no beginning himself, He always is. eternal life is one entering into it at some point and it goes on forever.
It's God's own life in our spirit, whose life is not about timelessness.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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How does the state of matter affect the nature of God? It’s like saying the state of a piece of art physically affects the artist.

One needs to go back and read the quote from the church father I quoted.

How big is your God?

If Matter is eternal without beginning, then one claim god is not the creator since all he did was build things like humans do.

The scripture Col 1:17 is a lie if matter is eternal.

eternal matter would be a god.

"Origen’s engagement on this point took on a philosophical bent, as he ar-gued that prime matter was not eternal but made by God from nothing. He argued not so much against philosophers themselves as against some of his fellow Christians, like Hermogenes, who accepted the philosophical view. He founds his argument on God’s power and God’s providence. Firstly, if prime matter exists without having been created, then why postulate a Creator at all? Why not simply say that the forms themselves are also uncreated? Christians, of course, believe that God is the Creator and thus, Origen argues, should admit that if he made the forms, then he also made the matter. Secondly, if matter is eternal, then God sure was lucky to find exactly the matter he needed to make the universe! But if we accept this hypothesis, then God’s providence is eliminated. Either God got lucky or received the matter he needed from some higher providence. Again, the argument works against Christians, who cannot accept a providence above God’s providence. It would be like saying that God was made by a higher God. The correct idea, Origen says, is that matter was made by God out of nothing. The philosophers, in their limited understanding, simply failed to understand that God can even make something out of nothing"
“The earth was invisible and unformed”: Prime Matter and Creatio ex Nihilo in: Genesis and Cosmos

If you study the Laws of Thermodynamics, eternal matter makes no sense because if the universe were billions of years old then eternal matter would freeze over, thus no possibility of life in all the universes.

If God formed the world out of preexisting matter, where did that matter come from?
Answer Genesis 1:1 Col 1

If Matter is eternal, what right did God have to use it unless He created it out of nothing?

Colossians 1:15-18
Easy-to-Read Version
The Son of God Is the Same as God
15 No one can see God,
but the Son is exactly like God.
He rules over everything that has been made.[a]
16 Through his power all things were made:
things in heaven and on earth, seen and not seen—
all spiritual rulers, lords, powers, and authorities.
Everything was made through him and for him.

17 The Son was there before anything was made.
And all things continue because of him.
18 He is the head of the body, which is the church.
He is the beginning of everything else.
And he is the first among all who will be raised from death.
So in everything he is most important.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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"The Son was there before anything was made.
And all things continue because of him." Col 1:17

Even matter is held together in Christ.

John 1: 3 Everything was made through him, and nothing was made without him.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The problem is that 2,000 years of indoctrination have caused most Christians to presume to know what it means to walk in the Holy Spirit. And yet Paul's walk with the Spirit was largely a matter of Direct Revelation. Why do most Christians presume that Paul intended something different for us?


Here's the main point. We shouldn't presume ANYTHING. Ultimately, I don't even presume that Christianity is the true religion - after all I'm fallible. Hence it only makes sense for me to pursue infallible Direct Revelation and, if I receive it one day, I hope it will confirm that Christianity is that the true religion, i.e. raise my level of certainty to 100%.

Don't get me wrong. Like all Christians, I'm 99.99999999% sure that Christianity is the true religion. If I claimed to be 100% sure, that would mean I see myself as infallible on that question. Guess what - I'm fallible.

Those Paul taught who walked in the Spirit did not have a direct revelation to them personally, but were taught by word and letter by Paul to do so.

Everyone through Church History and Today in fact Walk in the Spirit from what was written in the New Testament.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The problem is that 2,000 years of indoctrination have caused most Christians to presume to know what it means to walk in the Holy Spirit. And yet Paul's walk with the Spirit was largely a matter of Direct Revelation. Why do most Christians presume that Paul intended something different for us?


Here's the main point. We shouldn't presume ANYTHING. Ultimately, I don't even presume that Christianity is the true religion - after all I'm fallible. Hence it only makes sense for me to pursue infallible Direct Revelation and, if I receive it one day, I hope it will confirm that Christianity is that the true religion, i.e. raise my level of certainty to 100%.

Don't get me wrong. Like all Christians, I'm 99.99999999% sure that Christianity is the true religion. If I claimed to be 100% sure, that would mean I see myself as infallible on that question. Guess what - I'm fallible.
infallible adjective
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in·fal·li·ble | \ (ˌ)in-ˈfa-lə-bəl \
Definition of infallible
1: incapable of error : UNERRING
an infallible memory
2: not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : CERTAIN
an infallible remedy
3: incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals
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Finally we both agree that we are fallible Human Life Forms. :)
 
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JAL

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Friend, you will need to define and describe the error of sanctification you have in mind.
The Galatian error can be described as an error with at least three facets that ultimately converge into the same unsatisfactory result:
(1) Earlier I described it as a failure to seek Direct Revelation - the "hearing of faith" is the literal translation of the Greek at verses 3:2, 5. And at verse 6 Paul adduced the prophet Abraham's experience at Gen 15:1-6 as proof of this hearing-God concept.
(2) As it turns out, however, God speaks by opening His mouth and releasing sanctifying outpourings of the divine Word. "The [outpoured] Word came to Abram in a vision" (Gen 15:1),see also Isa 55:11. Each outpouring provides a dosage of instant sanctification because it brings the heart closer to being filled full of the Spirit. This is sanctification by grace rather than sanctification by works (trying to obey laws/commands deduced from Scripture). In essence, sanctification is supposed to proceed by waiting upon the Lord to send reviving outpourings, not by trying to obey Scripture. By attempting to sanctify themselves by acts of obedience, the whole church is still making that same Galatian error today.
(3) As it turns out, that voice speaks PROMISES. Hence the emphasis in Galatians 3 on promises, "The promises were spoken to Abraham and [to us] his seed and [to Christ] his seed" (Gal 3:16, my translation). For example Israel was not supposed to march into battle without a "loud and clear" sign from heaven, serving as a promise of victory (see for example Num 9:15-23). This OT strategy for military campaigns was the same strategy used by the apostles for evangelistic campaigns starting from Pentecost where they saw/heard a "loud and clear" signal from heaven (rushing wind and tongues of fire), and later they even felt numerous earthquakes. Here too, by failing to wait on God for these promises, the whole church is repeating the Galatian error.
 
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JAL

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Those Paul taught who walked in the Spirit did not have a direct revelation to them personally, but were taught by word and letter by Paul to do so.
As far as I know, 99% of all evangelical theologians rightly agree with Calvin's doctrine of the Inward Witness of the Holy Spirit. There is no salvation, and no walk with God, without Direct Revelation.
 
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JAL

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The scripture Col 1:17 is a lie if matter is eternal.
That's a decent, forceful argument but it's hardly apodictic. Most sentences that use absolute language actually have limited scope. For example at a party we say, "Everyone is here" even though, certainly, everyone in the world is certainly NOT here. Paul said that the "all have sinned" even though the angels and Christ had not sinned. Luke said that, "all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord" but I'm having a hard time taking those words literally.

Col 1:17 asserts that the Son is the maker of everything constructed, everything presented to Adam, Eve, and the angels. And in Him all those things hold together. There was no other maker. That verse doesn't decisively establish creation ex nihilo.

Either God got lucky or received the matter he needed from some higher providence.
Ridiculous argument from my perspective. Only someone with a Greek philosophical mindset/ bias/ orientation would esteem an argument like that. The biblical God is merely my Father who, as such, doesn't need to satisfy some unrealistic philosophical standard concerning "absolute highest providence" whereby matter must be created ex nihilo.

If we hold that God is NOT material, we contradict all the biblical data, as discussed on this thread
God Is a Physical Being | Christian Forums
And we run into logical problems, for example an intangible Spirit couldn't even push a pencil. Such problems are discussed on the thread.
 
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No, common sense, studying a text in historical cultural context. Standing on the shoulders of theological giants.
Common sense isn't satisfactory with 100 billion souls at stake. We need infallible revelation.
 
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The Galatian error can be described as an error with at least three facets that ultimately converge into the same unsatisfactory result:
(1) Earlier I described it as a failure to seek Direct Revelation - the "hearing of faith" is the literal translation of the Greek at verses 3:2, 5. And at verse 6 Paul adduced the prophet Abraham's experience at Gen 15:1-6 as proof of this hearing-God concept.
(2) As it turns out, however, God speaks by opening His mouth and releasing sanctifying outpourings of the divine Word. "The [outpoured] Word came to Abram in a vision" (Gen 15:1),see also Isa 55:11. Each outpouring provides a dosage of instant sanctification because it brings the heart closer to being filled full of the Spirit. This is sanctification by grace rather than sanctification by works (trying to obey laws/commands deduced from Scripture). In essence, sanctification is supposed to proceed by waiting upon the Lord to send reviving outpourings, not by trying to obey Scripture. By attempting to sanctify themselves by acts of obedience, the whole church is still making that same Galatian error today.
(3) As it turns out, that voice speaks PROMISES. Hence the emphasis in Galatians 3 on promises, "The promises were spoken to Abraham and [to us] his seed and [to Christ] his seed" (Gal 3:16, my translation). For example Israel was not supposed to march into battle without a "loud and clear" sign from heaven, serving as a promise of victory (see for example Num 9:15-23). This OT strategy for military campaigns was the same strategy used by the apostles for evangelistic campaigns starting from Pentecost where they saw/heard a "loud and clear" signal from heaven (rushing wind and tongues of fire), and later they even felt numerous earthquakes. Here too, by failing to wait on God for these promises, the whole church is repeating the Galatian error.

Try to simplify that friend. I am not getting it. One can not become more like Christ by keeping the Law without the power of God. Since, we have the fruit of the Spirit, there is no need to keep the 613 laws of Moses. I am trying to say, one does not keep a check list of the law. He is the Vine, we are the Branches. Good virtues comes from God in our new being or new nature..
 
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