What kind of people does God want to populate Heaven with?

[Clearly]

[FONT=&quot]POST THREE OF THREE

There are other ancient Christian texts that also describe the ancient Christian faith in relation to their dead in this spirit world. For example, the ancient text from the diary of a Christian woman Perpetua (The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity) is the story of a new convert to Christianity. The specific doctrines that this new convert was taught and believed in are quite poignant AND, impressively, such texts are strong witnesses of the early doctrine that the dead may receive the gospel knowledge.

First, the newly converted Christian Perpetua relates : [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“my father, furious at the word ‘Christian,’ threw himself upon me as though to pluck out my eyes but he was satisfied with annoying me;...Then I thanked the Lord for being parted for a few days from my father, and was refreshed by his absence. During those few days we were baptized, and the Holy Spirit bade me make no other petition after the holy water save for bodily endurance. A few days after we were lodged in prison; and I was in great fear, because I had never known such darkness. What a day of horror! Terrible heat, thanks to the crowds! Rough handling by the soldiers! To crown all I was tormented there by anxiety for my baby. (The Passion of Perpetual and Felicity ch three) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Perpetua, who understood the ancient doctrine that all saints were to receive revelation for themselves is asked by her brother to ask God whether they might expect deliverance or ultimately be martyred.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Then my brother said to me: ‘Lady sister, you are now in great honor, so great indeed that you may well pray for a vision and may well be shown whether suffering or release be in store for you.’ And I who new myself to have speech of the Lord, for whose sake I had gone through so much, gave confident promise in return, saying : ‘Tomorrow I will bring you word.’ [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Perpetua understands that she may ask God for revelation in a prayer and has every confidence that her prayer will be answered. She then made her request of God, and received a vision that confirmed they would be martyred and “...at once I told my brother, and we understood that we must suffer, and henceforward began to have no hope in this world.”

Perpetua understood also that she could make specific and limited requests for those who were dead in the same way that she could ask for specific and limited requests for the living. Perpetua had another Brother Dinocrates who had died as a child, untaught and unbaptized and, who, she understood to be in the spirit world with all others who had died. Perpetua relates [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“After a few days, while we were all praying, suddenly in the middle of the prayer I spoke, and uttered the name of Dinocrates...And I saw at once that I was entitled, and ought, to make request for him. And I began to pray much for him...At once on this very night this was shown me. I saw Dinocrates coming forth from a dark place, where there were many other dark places...and the wound which he had when he died was in his face still.... “For him then I had prayed; and there was a great gulf between me and him, so that neither of us could approach the other. There was besides in the very place where dinocrates was a font full of water, the rim of which was above the head of the child; and Dinocrates stood on tiptoe to drink. I grieved that the font should have water in it and that nevertheless he could not drink because of the height of the rim. And I woke and recognized that my brother was in trouble. But I trusted that I could relieve his trouble, and I prayed for him every day until we were transferred to the garrison prison, for we were to fight with the beasts at the garrison games on the Caesar Geta’s birthday. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the symbolic language typical to early Christianity (204 a.d.), it is obvious that Perpetua could see both that Dinocrates’ ability to access salvific principles was limited, she “saw at once that I (she) was entitled, and ought to make request for him.”. He was thirsty, but could not drink of the living water.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
After making a completely appropriate request for Dinocrates to receive the Gospel she relates in Ch VIII that [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“During the daytime, while we stayed in the stocks, this was shown me. I was that same place which I had seen before, and Dinocrates clean in body, well-clothes and refreshed; and where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and the font which I had seen before had its rim lowered to the child’s waist; and there poured water from it unceasingly; and on the rim a golden bowl full of water. And Dinocrates came forward and began to drink from it, and the bowl failed not. And when he had drunk enough of the water, be came forward being glad to play as children will. And I awoke. Then I knew that he had been released from punishment.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dinocrates was given the chance to drink of living water of gospel knowledge to the extent he desired. Though Dinocrates never fully accessed the font of water, he did access the part of this living water he could access by virtue of the golden bowl of water. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Just as Dinocrates had been given gospel truths in the spirit world, the gospel must be preached to ALL others who did not have it in this life.

This WAS the ancient Christian Doctrine. The Apostle Peter also understood what Perpetua understood. Thus he said "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Those who have refused the gospel despite having adequate witness of it and understanding of it's implications, are not offered multiple chances (as John had warned those in the spirit world), However, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]All of the many million (billions?) who, like Dinocrates, did not have the chance to hear or understand or accept the gospel during their lifetimes [/FONT][FONT=&quot]must have an adequate chance to learn of; to understand the moral requirements and the choice to learn and live by them or to live by whatever other standards they choose. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Cieza; Good luck where ever your own discoveries take you. I think your questions were quite appropriate and thought provoking.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Clear[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
einefunm
[/FONT]

 

[Cieza]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]God cannot justly condemn anyone if he has not provided adequate opportunity for them to learn of his requirements as well as provide them the choice and ability to live his requirements. It is obvious that another mechanism must exist for individuals, such as those who die as infants, to have adequate opportunity to learn and understand and to learn to live these principles if they so desire. Since that opportunity did not occur within their mortal life, it must happen outside their mortal lives.[/FONT]

What opportunity has God provided to dogs, giraffes, spiders and bumblebees to learn of his requirements?

What about those who grow up in an isolated part of the world and are never introduced to the concept of a supreme being?

What about mentally [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] folks who don't have the brain capacity to believe in a supreme being?

When you say "adequate opportunity", how is "adequate opportunity" quantified? Is it universally measured? Or does each individual quantify it based on their own needs? Some people don't need to see or hear God in any capacity to acknowledge his existence, while others (such as me) need to be able to make first hand observations of God's omniscience and omnipotence.

 

[Clearly]

Clearly opined thst : "God cannot justly condemn anyone if he has not provided adequate opportunity for them to learn of his requirements as well as provide them the choice and ability to live his requirements. It is obvious that another mechanism must exist for individuals, such as those who die as infants, to have adequate opportunity to learn and understand and to learn to live these principles if they so desire. Since that opportunity did not occur within their mortal life, it must happen outside their mortal lives.

A) Cieaza asked “What opportunity has God provided to dogs, giraffes, spiders and bumblebees to learn of his requirements? “
Clearly replies : “I don’t have any idea what minimal and primitive moral requirements a bumble bee has OR how a bumblebee learns of those.”



B) Cieaza asked : “What about those who grow up in an isolated part of the world and are never introduced to the concept of a supreme being?”

What about mentally… folks who don't have the brain capacity to believe in a supreme being?


Clearly points out : These questions are the very point I was answering in my last three posts. Perhaps you could read them. It would not be just for a God to condemn individuals for not obeying moral laws which he denied them the chance to receive and understand. My point was that the early texts taught and demonstrated that individuals who did not have an opportunity to receive these laws in this life, will receive them after they die. No individual can be fairly “judged” nor “condemned” if they did not receive and understand moral law by which they are to be judged.



C) Cieaza asked : “When you say "adequate opportunity", how is "adequate opportunity" quantified? Is it universally measured? Or does each individual quantify it based on their own needs? Some people don't need to see or hear God in any capacity to acknowledge his existence, while others (such as me) need to be able to make first hand observations of God's omniscience and omnipotence.”
Clearly replies : My posts spoke to the early christian belief that individuals would receive the opportunity to learn moral laws after this life if they did not have the opportunity to receive knowledge of them within their lifetime.

It is in this context I am using the terms “Adequate opportunity" to learn moral laws. By this, I mean that individuals must be given the mental capacity and ability to understand moral concepts and their consequences and be adequately informed of moral law and ability to chose the level of obedience they are willing to render to moral laws regarding good and evil. They must have adequate knowledge, understanding of and choice to live a level of moral law before it can be just to reward or punish based on a moral law.

I cannot tell if you are disagreeing with the early christian doctrine and you feel that individuals may be justly condemned without having knowledge and understanding, or if you ARE agreeing with the early christian doctrine that individuals MUST have knowledge and understanding of moral laws, if they are to be judged by their level of obedience TO moral laws.

Clearly
drvidrog

 

[Cieza]

A) Cieaza asked “What opportunity has God provided to dogs, giraffes, spiders and bumblebees to learn of his requirements? “
Clearly replies : “I don’t have any idea what minimal and primitive moral requirements a bumble bee has OR how a bumblebee learns of those.”

Can you think of any good reason why a bumblebee should be denied admission to heaven?

B) Cieaza asked : “What about those who grow up in an isolated part of the world and are

never introduced to the concept of a supreme being?”

What about mentally… folks who don't have the brain capacity to believe in a supreme being?


Clearly points out : These questions are the very point I was answering in my last three posts. Perhaps you could read them. It would not be just for a God to condemn individuals for not obeying moral laws which he denied them the chance to receive and understand. My point was that the early texts taught and demonstrated that individuals who did not have an opportunity to receive these laws in this life, will receive them after they die. No individual can be fairly “judged” nor “condemned” if they did not receive and understand moral law by which they are to be judged.

What are we talking about here? Accepting a particular set of moral laws or having a particular set of beliefs about the physical world? I clearly asked about the brain capacity to believe in a supreme being, not about the capacity to obey moral laws. Do you not think there is a difference between those two things?

C) Cieaza asked : “When you say "adequate opportunity", how is "adequate opportunity" quantified? Is it universally measured? Or does each individual quantify it based on their own needs? Some people don't need to see or hear God in any capacity to acknowledge his existence, while others (such as me) need to be able to make first hand observations of God's omniscience and omnipotence.”
Clearly replies : My posts spoke to the early christian belief that individuals would receive the opportunity to learn moral laws after this life if they did not have the opportunity to receive knowledge of them within their lifetime.

I'm confused. Why do you think I'm talking about moral laws when I'm clearly asking about a supreme being and what each of us need to observe (I mean with our eyes & ears) to believe that a fully omniscient & omnipotent being exists?

It is in this context I am using the terms “Adequate opportunity" to learn moral laws. By this, I mean that individuals must be given the mental capacity and ability to understand moral concepts and their consequences and be adequately informed of moral law and ability to chose the level of obedience they are willing to render to moral laws regarding good and evil. They must have adequate knowledge, understanding of and choice to live a level of moral law before it can be just to reward or punish based on a moral law.

Does believing an omniscient & omnipotent being exists equate to having a good set of moral laws and following them?

I cannot tell if you are disagreeing with the early christian doctrine and you feel that individuals may be justly condemned without having knowledge and understanding, or if you ARE agreeing with the early christian doctrine that individuals MUST have knowledge and understanding of moral laws, if they are to be judged by their level of obedience TO moral laws.

Actually, I am in agreement with the majority of the moral laws which are highlighted in the Bible. What I'm in disagreement with is the concept of a fully omniscient & omnipotent being existing in this world.

 

[Iakobos]

Thomas doubted the resurrection of Jesus since such a think had never happened in history. We all should doubt such a thing until we see Jesus close up and that is fine. Every mature adult human on earth needs to see Jesus one on one eyeball to eyeball, spend time with them, listen to their concerns, give them a hug, share in their experiences and mainly Love them unconditionally. Will that is the way it works. Christ living in and through true Christians goes to the non-believers in just that way (or at least that is the way it is supposed to happen).

We are not trying to have proof (knowledge) of God, but be accepting of the Creator’s help allowing Jesus/God through Christians to serve us. God is Love so accepting God’s Love (as it is given as charity) is accepting God. The easiest (and really only initial) way to do just that is by humbly accepting God’s forgiveness (charity/grace/mercy/Love) of your transgressions (hurting people in the past) that will relieve the burden these transgressions produce.

Yes, there are mature adult humans; that have not and will not experience Christ one on one like I described, but that does not mean they cannot trust (faith) a benevolent Creator (the world around us presents such a thing) that would help relieve them of their burden in their God given conscience. God will do just that for them, because that is what God is wanting to do and they will Love much because the way it works is “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” That Love is what God wants to give us.

God is not trying to “get” you to do something but is trying to give something to you.

That “something” is the most powerful force in all universes compelling even God to do all He does, but we do have to accept it (he will not force it on us) as Charity.

Who doesn't want the eyeball to eyeball time!? If that happened, everything would change! Millions of doubting Thomas are hoping for this.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Cieza. You had some simple and straightforward explanations, may I give one more? God is our Heavenly Father and God wants loving children to live with for eternity. How do we show that we love God? All of us have the privilege to pray, ( talk to God as our Heavenly Father, get to know Him and trust Him) we tell God of our Love for Him, and talk to Him as loved sons and daughters. Christianity is also a loving relationship, we take everything to God in Prayer. Then we keep eyes and ears open and follow God`s Commandments to love. Let us try and leave our selfishness behind, and move on to loving and caring. We will find that it becomes easier, like born again in God`s image. We will stumble, but get up and keep trying. God will forgive us as we forgive others, and Jesus our Saviour, will keep leading us home, to where we came from. I say this with love, Cieza. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. Don`t go by feelings, let God`s Truth lead you.

 

[Clearly]

Cieaza asked : “Can you think of any good reason why a bumblebee should be denied admission to heaven?”
Clearly answers : I certainly can’t see ANY reason why animals or insects or any type of life could not live in a heaven. I haven't thought much about what might be expected of a bee or a microbe or a flower, (etc).

For example, I believe there may be flowers in heaven, but who knows what natural and moral laws are required of a flower or a microbe and who knows how that flower gains “knowledge” of those laws. We lack data to the point that such things simply become philosophical speculations. Perhaps those speculations have value to someone, but I’m not sure I see the value in them without greater data.

Cieaza asked : “What are we talking about here? Accepting a particular set of moral laws or having a particular set of beliefs about the physical world? I clearly asked about the brain capacity to believe in a supreme being, not about the capacity to obey moral laws. Do you not think there is a difference between those two things?”
Clearly opines : Yes, I do think that those are different things though they are connected in certain contexts (i.e. if there is no God, then there are no moral “laws of God&#8221. They are separate in that a “good” moral act is independent of the belief in God. I believe that an athiest who helps an old lady across the street is just as “good” in this specific action as a theist who does the same. I could be wrong, but I think that in this way, religious beliefs and moral motives and actions are independent.

In the OPs’ context of “the type of individuals God wants to populate heaven with, my point was that you cannot HAVE individuals in a joyous, unified, social heaven who have not learned to live the moral laws and actions that underlie joy and unity.

Cieaza asked : “Does believing an omniscient & omnipotent being exists equate to having a good set of moral laws and following them?”
Clearly opines : Certainly not. There are many monotheists who perform many specific “evil actions”.


Cieaza declares : “Actually, I am in agreement with the majority of the moral laws which are highlighted in the Bible. What I'm in disagreement with is the concept of a fully omniscient & omnipotent being existing in this world.”.
Clearly responds : Like you, I am in agreement with the majority of the moral laws highlighted in the Bible (at least as I understand them...). I'm glad we agree on this.

Your opinion on the existence/non-existence of such a being is clear. However, this thread has to do with what sort of individuals God wants to populate heaven with.


Cieaza - good luck in your journey toward discovery and understanding.


Clearly

 

[Cieza]

[FONT=&quot]POST ONE OF THREE

Cieza ; [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I believe that your questions are very good ones since they touch on important principles: the concept of heaven’s characteristics and the relationship of the gospel to a theoretical “heaven” and the concept of God’s justice or injustice in allowing all a sufficient chance to attain that “heaven”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Although you will receive many takes on specific theologies (mainly various christian theories), I would like to add mine.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]IF heaven is a social place that is characterized by complete harmony and joy that lasts forever; then it must be populated by inhabitants which have learned and mastered social and moral principles which create and support that sort of environment. I think that you are correct in assuming that moral characteristics must be the main characteristic underlying that sort of sociality.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Allowing evil and malignant individuals into heaven would be ruinous to both obtaining peace and harmony and would it impossible to retain peace and harmony. Thus, I believe that those who will inhabit any eternally joyful and peaceful and harmonious “heaven” will, at some point in their existence, have to have learned and mastered the living of such moral principles.[/FONT]

Christians have told me that in order to get into heaven, one must believe that Jesus died for the sins of others. They've also told me that one cannot get into heaven on their works or moral values alone. Therefore, a believer who is not morally sound could get into heaven, while a non-believer who is morally sound would be excluded from heaven. Is that what God wants?

[FONT=&quot]I thought your second question was also a very good question :
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I believe that if this life was the only existence of individuals, one could not easily justify obvious inequities (which are not all caused by “mankind”). For example, some individuals are born with retardation or live for only a few minutes before dying as infants, or live in a day and age or a time when they could not have received an adequate chance to have heard any christian “gospel” or “accept christ”, nor did many of them have any chance of being taught about the existence of a God nor learn of any moral requirements placed upon them by a God. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God cannot justly condemn anyone if he has not provided adequate opportunity for them to learn of his requirements as well as provide them the choice and ability to live his requirements. It is obvious that another mechanism must exist for individuals, such as those who die as infants, to have adequate opportunity to learn and understand and to learn to live these principles if they so desire. Since that opportunity did not occur within their mortal life, it must happen outside their mortal lives.[/FONT]

When you say "learn of his requirements", do you mean the beliefs we must have to be granted admission into heaven? Or do you mean the morals we must possess to be granted admission into heaven?

What mechanism is there for those who after making a sincere intellectual attempt to evaluate the validity of Christianity determine it to be false? Especially if such people would be insincere to themselves and others if they feigned their belief such that it appeared to others that they believed Jesus died for the sins of others.

 

[Cieza]

Dear Cieza. You had some simple and straightforward explanations, may I give one more? God is our Heavenly Father and God wants loving children to live with for eternity. How do we show that we love God? All of us have the privilege to pray, ( talk to God as our Heavenly Father, get to know Him and trust Him) we tell God of our Love for Him, and talk to Him as loved sons and daughters. Christianity is also a loving relationship, we take everything to God in Prayer. Then we keep eyes and ears open and follow God`s Commandments to love. Let us try and leave our selfishness behind, and move on to loving and caring. We will find that it becomes easier, like born again in God`s image. We will stumble, but get up and keep trying. God will forgive us as we forgive others, and Jesus our Saviour, will keep leading us home, to where we came from. I say this with love, Cieza. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ. P.S. Don`t go by feelings, let God`s Truth lead you.

If God wants loving children to live with for eternity then:
- why does he allow hundreds of thousands of people on earth to needlessly suffer?
- why does he not reveal himself to people like me?
- why does he not make himself observable to everyone?
- why does he send different messages to different people?
- why does he not caution people - such as those living in Haiti - of an upcoming natural disaster?

 

[elman]

If God wants loving children to live with for eternity then:
- why does he allow hundreds of thousands of people on earth to needlessly suffer?
- why does he not reveal himself to people like me?
- why does he not make himself observable to everyone?
- why does he send different messages to different people?
- why does he not caution people - such as those living in Haiti - of an upcoming natural disaster?

Why do you prefer meaninglessness and a destiny of oblivion?

 

[Hakan101]

If God wants loving children to live with for eternity then:
- why does he allow hundreds of thousands of people on earth to needlessly suffer?
- why does he not reveal himself to people like me?
- why does he not make himself observable to everyone?
- why does he send different messages to different people?
- why does he not caution people - such as those living in Haiti - of an upcoming natural disaster?

-It is not needless suffering because you cannot think of a reason
-He does all the time. Keep seeking. Yours hasn't come yet.
-Because not everyone wants to see him
-Because he has different purposes for different people
-Because there are people so deep asleep they need their world shaken to wake up

 

[Cieza]

- why does he allow hundreds of thousands of people on earth to needlessly suffer?
-It is not needless suffering because you cannot think of a reason

Then why does God allow the suffering of hundreds of thousands of people?


- why does he not reveal himself to people like me?
-He does all the time. Keep seeking. Yours hasn't come yet.

So you're saying the reason I haven't observed God isn't because of a choice I've made or a belief I have, but because God has chosen to not reveal himself to me. Correct?



- why does he not make himself observable to everyone?
-Because not everyone wants to see him

Why would God not make himself observable to those who don't want to see him? What about those who want to make an observation of God (I mean see or hear) but who have not?


- why does he send different messages to different people?
-Because he has different purposes for different people

Why would God have different purposes for different people? Why does God send different messages to two different believers?


- why does he not caution people - such as those living in Haiti - of an upcoming natural disaster?
-Because there are people so deep asleep they need their world shaken to wake up

Why would God not caution the "deep asleep" people but will caution the non-sleeping people?

 

[elman]

Cieza;58438495]

- why does he not reveal himself to people like me?
-He does all the time. Keep seeking. Yours hasn't come yet.

So you're saying the reason I haven't observed God isn't because of a choice I've made or a belief I have, but because God has chosen to not reveal himself to me. Correct?

I think you are not open to the possibility and not really looking for God to show Himself to you. I think that choice is yours. God choses to not force Himself on you.

- why does he not make himself observable to everyone?
-Because not everyone wants to see him

Why would God not make himself observable to those who don't want to see him? What about those who want to make an observation of God (I mean see or hear) but who have not?

God will determine the way in which He presents Himself. We don't get to demand that.

- why does he send different messages to different people?
-Because he has different purposes for different people

And different people need different messages.

Why would God have different purposes for different people? Why does God send different messages to two different believers?

We have different problems.

- why does he not caution people - such as those living in Haiti - of an upcoming natural disaster?
-Because there are people so deep asleep they need their world shaken to wake up

Why would God not caution the "deep asleep" people but will caution the non-sleeping people?

We are living in a world where we all die. Some of us die in natural disasters. Others just die of old age.

 

[Clearly]

Hi Cieaza :



I apologize for not posting sooner. I have sold a home, bought another and am selling yet another, so I’ve moved 2 ½ times since I started posting in this thread. I think the principles underlying your initial questions are important and I do not want you to think I did not care enough to post. You asked regarding the type of people God wants to populate heaven with and you offered the following regarding the morals of heavenly inhabitants :



1) THE MORAL CHARACTERISTICS OF A SOCIAL HEAVEN

Cieaza said : “[FONT=&quot]Suppose there is a god who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. . .Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless God wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy.[/FONT] “

Thus I opined : in post #19 :

Clearly said in post #19: “[FONT=&quot]Although you will receive many takes on specific theologies (mainly various christian theories), I would like to add mine.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]IF heaven is a social place that is characterized by complete harmony and joy that lasts forever; then it must be populated by inhabitants who have learned and mastered social and moral principles which create and support that sort of environment. I think that you are correct in assuming that moral characteristics must be the main characteristic underlying that sort of sociality.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Allowing evil and malignant individuals into heaven would be ruinous to both obtaining peace and harmony and would it impossible to retain peace and harmony. Thus, I believe that those who will inhabit any eternally joyful and peaceful and harmonious “heaven” will, at some point in their existence, have to have learned and mastered the living of such moral principles.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thus I agree with you that individuals who inhabit heaven will value truth and will have learned to lived principles underlying social joy and harmony.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2) THE INEQUALITY OF RELIGIOUS CHOICE IN THIS LIFE AND THE EQUALIZING OF RELIGIOUS DATA AFTER THIS LIFE AND BEFORE ANY JUDGMENT[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You asked regarding the apparent unfairness where some individuals hear the gospel message and other do not hear the gospel message. You asked : [/FONT]

Cieaza asked : Why does God send messages which might make some people eligible for heaven while he sends no messages to others? If one receives no messages from God, why should they be denied a place in heaven just because there was no indication to them that God really was there?

I answered in post #20 the following :

Clearly said in post #19 “[FONT=&quot]God cannot justly condemn anyone if he has not provided adequate opportunity for them to learn of his requirements as well as provide them the choice and ability to live his requirements.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] It is obvious that another mechanism must exist for individuals, such as those who die as infants, to have adequate opportunity to learn and understand and to learn to live these principles if they so desire. Since that opportunity did not occur within their mortal life, it must happen outside their mortal lives.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Then in posts 19, 20 and 21 I explained and gave examples of the early Judao-Christian belief that those who did not hear of the Gospel in this life will hear of it while awaiting the resurrection and before any judgment.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3) THE PRINCIPLES OF BELIEF AND MORAL SOUNDNESS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In post #28 you brought up one Christian theory saying :

“

[/FONT]

Christians have told me that in order to get into heaven, one must believe that Jesus died for the sins of others. They've also told me that one cannot get into heaven on their works or moral values alone. Therefore, a believer who is not morally sound could get into heaven, while a non-believer who is morally sound would be excluded from heaven. Is that what God wants? “

There are multiple Christian theories promulgated by multiple types of Christianities in separate eras of time. Christian theories (including the one you describe) differ and are not all equally logical nor consistent with each other.



A) REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT AN EVIL (i.e. “morally unsound&#8221 CHRISTIAN MAY OBTAIN HEAVEN
It should be clear that if a social heaven MUST be inhabited by morally sound individuals who have mastered the principles underlying social joy and harmony, then an evil Christian cannot enter heaven regardless of their belief that Jesus was the redeemer.



B) REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT ONE MUST BELIEVE IN JESUS’ ATONEMENT
If an individual wants to accept the contract or covenant offered by the atonement of a redeemer, they would necessarily have to first believe that such a contract and atonement exists and had redemptive value BEFORE they could intelligently enter into such a covenant or contract. In a similar context, I wish I had believed that a certain stock investment was going to make money for me. This particular stock performed spectacularly, but I did not believe in its value, so I did not invest in it. Now, I regret that specific disbelief. I hope the logical connection between belief in Jesus’ atonement and belief in a specific stock is obvious.




4) THE ROLE OF FAITH AND MORALS AND CHOICE IN THE INHABITANT OF HEAVEN

Cieaza asked : “When you say "learn of his requirements", do you mean the beliefs we must have to be granted admission into heaven? Or do you mean the morals we must possess to be granted admission into heaven?

These are both necessary to some extent.


A) The morals required to enter heaven : I think that you and I already agree that a social heaven that is eternally joyful and harmonious to it’s inhabitants MUST have certain moral characteristics to it. Thus, its inhabitants MUST have learned to master and live by principles that support social joy and harmony.


B) The will and choice required to enter heaven (which all make based on faith or lack of faith) : The early Christians believed that ultimately, all individuals will learn of and understand the covenant or contract offered us through the atonement of Jesus.



They will either learn of it within their lifetime, or outside of their lifetime. If they then have faith in this covenant and desires to live its moral requirements, they are allowed to learn and master moral laws of heaven and ultimately, become one of its inhabitants if they so desire. One is NOT judged before or without having heard and understood the gospel.


C) The atonement and insufficiency of our own moral actions : You described being told that our own moral acts were insufficient to allow us to enter heaven. This insufficiency does not mean that certain moral characteristics and actions are not critical nor unimportant in early Christian doctrine, it simply means these actions are insufficient and do not, alone, give us an ability to enter heaven.



For example, if I live the finest moral life I can, I will still die. If I live all the known rules of good health, I will still die. A physical resurrection mus be provided for me from a source which has that power, if I am to overcome physical death.

Just as I lack power to achieve eternal life on my own, moral actions will not give me power to achieve eternal heaven on my own. Both the immortality of resurrection and the eternal life of heaven require intervention of and assistance of a power greater than my own .







5) THOSE WHO HAVE INSUFFICIENT CORRECT DATA TO GAIN FAITH IN THE CHRISTIAN CLAIM

Cieaza asked : “What mechanism is there for those who after making a sincere intellectual attempt to evaluate the validity of Christianity determine it to be false? Especially if such people would be insincere to themselves and others if they feigned their belief such that it appeared to others that they believed Jesus died for the sins of others. “

My opinion is that all beliefs of logical individuals are associated with some sort of data and evidence that originates and supports the specific belief (though the type of evidence necessary for belief varies widely).


The rejection of Christianity based on limited and imperfect data : I believe that if a person made a perfectly sincere evaluation of Christianity given the data available to them, and they honestly determined the present evidence was insufficient, then they cannot be condemned for rejecting their current limited view of Christianity based on limited data.


The rejection of Christianity based on exposure to spurious and unauthentic Christian claims : If a person is exposed to unauthentic Christian claims (i.e. false and spurious Christian theories), then there is no moral obligation to believe in such claims and they are wise to avoid such Christian theories. I do not think we can blame anyone for disbelief when they have been exposed to a barrage of inconsistent and spurious claims. How CAN a “newcomer – investigator” of Christian theory tell the authentic from the inauthentic? Christians themselves are to blame for much of this counterproductive confusion.

A rejection of Christianity based on complete and perfect data : I believe that if a person made a sincerely evaluation of authentic Christianity and had sufficient data and evidence sufficient that they understood and believed in Jesus as the redeemer, then this belief produces a moral obligation to pursue this belief.


If the early Judao-Christian claim is correct, then at some point, either in this life or outside of this life, we will have increasing amounts of good data regarding the existence of God and which, of all religious claims are true. Once we have data sufficient to produce belief, then at THAT point, we come under obligation to follow those beliefs. If that happens within our lifetime, then we incur moral obligation within this life. If it occurs after this life, then the moral obligation will occur at that time. No one is responsible unless and until sufficient data is given them.

Good luck Cieaza, in coming to your own determinations as to what you believe.

Clearly
fuvisimn

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Those who really obey the teachings, commands and Gospel of Jesus, whether they know him or not are invited. Obeying Christ without knowing him is possible, but how to obey the Gospel or know of it without knowing Christ? It can be that "a soul is looking for God."

The kingdom of God will be populated with believers and followers of Jesus (knowing, believing and following the will of the Father). Jesus told of this will through the Gospel, but can not there be those who find Jesus without ever really knowing him? All things are possible with the Father. I can not see that if the Father's will is known and obeyed without knowing Christ that they will be condemned by a technicality. Knowing and obeying is condemned yet a soul was acting out in its faith innocently without knowing its foundation. Better fear God and hope and pray for his will to be acted upon, instead of acting our reasoning over our faith.

 

[GA777]

If God wants loving children to live with for eternity then:
- why does he allow hundreds of thousands of people on earth to needlessly suffer?
- why does he not reveal himself to people like me?
- why does he not make himself observable to everyone?
- why does he send different messages to different people?
- why does he not caution people - such as those living in Haiti - of an upcoming natural disaster?

I wont enter in an endless debate,so I'll answer your 2nd-3rd question.He does everytime you seek him.

Have you ever spent some of your time praying for Jesus from your heart ?

And humans and God intelligence are exactly like comparing someone fooler than the foolest to a being which is smarter than the smartest.The fool can never understand the smart one,and may think for example that if the smart one shouts on his fool friend maybe for doing a mistake,the fool would think that he is not being treated fairly,while the smart one wants the fool to recognize and not repeat the mistake,thus the fool cant understand the smart,therefore he cant judge his works.We need someone as intelligent as God or pretty much as intelligent as him.that's why Jesus came,he is like him and understand his better than anyone else.And btw. God looks at the future and deep future , but we look at the present so things which may seem unjust in the present like haiti can bring to great things in the future like God forgiving them more during judgement etc..

 

[GA777]

If God wants loving children to live with for eternity then:
- why does he allow hundreds of thousands of people on earth to needlessly suffer?
- why does he not reveal himself to people like me?
- why does he not make himself observable to everyone?
- why does he send different messages to different people?
- why does he not caution people - such as those living in Haiti - of an upcoming natural disaster?

I wont enter in an endless debate,so I'll answer your 2nd question.He does everytime you seek him.

Have you ever spent some of your time praying for Jesus from your heart ?