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POST ONE OF THREE
Cieza ; [/FONT]
[FONT="]I believe that your questions are very good ones since they touch on important principles: the concept of heaven’s characteristics and the relationship of the gospel to a theoretical “heaven” and the concept of God’s justice or injustice in allowing all a sufficient chance to attain that “heaven”.[/FONT]
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Cieza asked in the OP : “Suppose there is a god who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. . .Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless God wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy.
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[FONT="]Would God prefer to populate heaven with people who are gullible and can be easily manipulated? Or would God prefer to populate heaven with people who are free thinkers & who are interested in reality?”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Although you will receive many takes on specific theologies (mainly various christian theories), I would like to add mine.[/FONT]
[FONT="]IF heaven is a social place that is characterized by complete harmony and joy that lasts forever; then it must be populated by inhabitants which have learned and mastered social and moral principles which create and support that sort of environment. I think that you are correct in assuming that moral characteristics must be the main characteristic underlying that sort of sociality.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Allowing evil and malignant individuals into heaven would be ruinous to both obtaining peace and harmony and would it impossible to retain peace and harmony. Thus, I believe that those who will inhabit any eternally joyful and peaceful and harmonious “heaven” will, at some point in their existence, have to have learned and mastered the living of such moral principles.[/FONT]
[FONT="]I thought your second question was also a very good question :
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Cieza asked in the OP : “Why does God send messages which might make some people eligible for heaven while he sends no messages to others? If one receives no messages from God, why should they be denied a place in heaven just because there was no indication to them that God really was there?”
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[FONT="]I believe that if this life was the only existence of individuals, one could not easily justify obvious inequities (which are not all caused by “mankind”
. For example, some individuals are born with retardation or live for only a few minutes before dying as infants, or live in a day and age or a time when they could not have received an adequate chance to have heard any christian “gospel” or “accept christ”, nor did many of them have any chance of being taught about the existence of a God nor learn of any moral requirements placed upon them by a God. [/FONT]
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God cannot justly condemn anyone if he has not provided adequate opportunity for them to learn of his requirements as well as provide them the choice and ability to live his requirements. It is obvious that another mechanism must exist for individuals, such as those who die as infants, to have adequate opportunity to learn and understand and to learn to live these principles if they so desire. Since that opportunity did not occur within their mortal life, it must happen outside their mortal lives.[/FONT]
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In early Christian theology, it was taught that the spirit that separates from the dead body was both cognizant and, upon death, went to a place that was not a place of final judgement, but was between mortality and judgement. That is where they received more knowledge concerning these principles.[/FONT]
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“THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE”
In describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. Occasionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion. For example the description that “
paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. This ancient meaning of the word “
Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that “
today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (luke 23:43).
It was not “heaven” Dymas was promised, but it was “
paradise”, the place between corruptible mortality and incorruptible heaven. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Quote:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Of mortals it was said, “
Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip) [/FONT]
[FONT="]All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
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[FONT="]The “
complainer”
Ezra remarks to Jesus in a vision, regarding the end of his (the prophet Ezras’
life : “
Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1). The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “
Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). This refers to Jesus descensus as a spirit into this middle place while his body remained in the tomb before resurrection. But more on this later.
ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world.[/FONT]
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do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7) [/FONT]
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And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) . [/FONT]
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For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15) [/FONT]
[FONT="]None of these references refer to the "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world"; the "place in the middle". Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). Since
the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage of sorts, was often referred to as a "prison" in early textual references.
In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown in his vision that this middle place has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : [/FONT]
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For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13) [/FONT]
[FONT="]Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.[/FONT]
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In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “
Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...8And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “
sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate
and still have free will.
Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example : Enoch, describes his vision of Hades/Sheol, teaching that there are those there who teach moral law : [/FONT]
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Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3 enoch 44:1-3) [/FONT]
[FONT="]It is not merely Samki’el who teaches, but the spirit of men communicate and teach one another[/FONT][FONT="] as I’ll point out later in the discussion of Christian texts of Christ’s descension into Sheol (hades, hell, paradise, etc, etc). However, the early Christian Saints also understood, that the
spirits of individuals in Sheol (hades, paradise, etc) still possessed intelligent free will and could also accept the blessings of the Gospel as far as they were able. Being “bodiless”, these individuals could NOT be baptized, though they could make the moral change of heart associated with faith, humility, repentance, etc. From the testimony of the
two sons of Symeon, we know that individual believers in the spirit world WERE teachers of others, just as those with bodies teach and testify of the gospel to others.
Whether moral progress occurs to the spirit before mortality, or during mortality or after mortality, still, changes may occur as long as God allows the individual to choose.[/FONT]
[FONT="]POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS
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