What justification does this atheist have and what is the truth?

[Gracchus]

I would define evil as very bad behavior. As far as where the line is drawn between bad behavior verses (sic: versus) very bad behavior is probably a matter of opinion.

So we have good and bad and evil, and it is a matter of opinion. We seem to agree.

What I might call evil another might call bad behavior and visa versa.

And someone else might call it good.

There are some things that most people would agree is evil such as what Amin, Hitler, or Gasey did. If God were to prevent evil it would be up to him to decide what is evil that is worth intervening in verses what is simply bad behavior, which is allowed to happen.

But God did not prevent Amin, Hitler, or Gasey from doing what they did, so did He regard that as just bad behavior? But you think it was evil. So you disagree with God?

Perhaps you could clarify?

 

[Ken-1122]

But God did not prevent Amin, Hitler, or Gasey from doing what they did, so did He regard that as just bad behavior? But you think it was evil. So you disagree with God?

Perhaps you could clarify?

If I believe God existed I would disagree with God on many issues; this one included.

Ken

 

[bricklayer]

I saw an atheist article and in it they said:
"An omnibenevolent God would not absent himself/herself in ways that cause or allow suffering.
Furthermore, if some people can experience a "lack of God", then God is clearly not omnipresent."
I know that it isn't a reasonable argument but what would be a sensible answer to this "problem"?

This creation is the never ending process of revealing God's glory.
In other words, God's primary purpose for this, His creation, is the revelation of His glory.

God's glory is the inviolate balance of His infinite perfections. God's glory is not the characteristics attributable to Him, His attributes; it is the balance, the inviolate balance of those attributes.

The atheist you cite focuses on only one of God's attributes, His omnipresence. Such is an unbalanced, unholy, perception of God.

 

[WonderBeat]

The only justification atheists have is their own envy. Envy of theists.

To think that theists possess such a great Jewel that atheists can only ponder about, is a great source of venom for their cold-hearted spirits.

 

[quatona]

The only justification atheists have is their own envy. Envy of theists.

To think that theists possess such a great Jewel that atheists can only ponder about, is a great source of venom for their cold-hearted spirits.

The only justification atheist have is their own envy. Envy of atheists.

To think that atheists are free of such a great burden that theists suffer from, is a great source of venom for their cold-hearted spirits.

That is an amazing discussion strategy. And so easy to do.

 

[WonderBeat]

The only justification atheist have is their own envy. Envy of atheists.

To think that atheists are free of such a great burden that theists suffer from, is a great source of venom for their cold-hearted spirits.

That is an amazing discussion strategy. And so easy to do.

Au contraire. It is atheists who suffer the greater burden. The burden of Enjoyment.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Au contraire. It is atheists who suffer the greater burden. The burden of Enjoyment.

What exactly is the burden of enjoyment?

I fail to see how enjoying life is a bad thing.

 

[Eudaimonist]

To think that theists possess such a great Jewel that atheists can only ponder about, is a great source of venom for their cold-hearted spirits.

Theists don't possess anything that I want and don't have as an atheist. I have meaning in life. I have purpose in life. I have a moral compass. I love life, even though life is limited. I don't fear death.

What am I supposed to be envious about?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[madaz]

Originally Posted by Dave Ellis

2) Part of the problem with the "Christian" label is that none of you guys believe the same thing.

Neither does the people carry the label "atheist" believe the same thing or agree on the same thing. We all are people with differing beliefs and opinions.

Christians have creeds so a consensus is a reasonable expectation, they should share the same beliefs with regard to their christianity.

I think that is the point Dave Ellis was trying to make.

Atheists do not have or follow a creed so there is no reasonable expectation for them to have a consensus on anything other than what actually describes them a Atheists. "Atheist" is a description not a label.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Neither does the people carry the label "atheist" believe the same thing or agree on the same thing. We all are people with differing beliefs and opinions.

Actually, everyone who identifies as an Atheist does share the exact same position on the relevant topic. Every single Atheist does not hold a belief in a God.

However, that is all Atheism deals with.

As for Christians, you all apparently worship the same god, and the same messiah. You would assume the story would be fairly clear cut about these two... Yet that is not the case.

The point was, almost every single christian has their personal version of Christianity. The difference is, Christianity is a belief system where Atheism is not. However, within that belief system you should reasonably expect to find high levels of common ground, if not one completely unified belief among all Christians. This is obviously not the case.

The point was, even if Christianity is correct, there's only (at best) one out of the 30,000 odd denominations that has it right. But since nobody can agree, and nobody can get their story straight, speaking from an outsiders perspective I have even less reason to take the claims of your religion seriously. You guys don't even know what you believe, so how could I be expected to be convinced of your ideas?

That's why evidence is important. If you can show me the evidence, I will accept what you have to say. However, until that time, the only logically valid position is to withhold belief.

 

[Dave Ellis]

The only justification atheists have is their own envy. Envy of theists.

To think that theists possess such a great Jewel that atheists can only ponder about, is a great source of venom for their cold-hearted spirits.

Three problems:

1) What on earth do I have any reason to envy a theist over? I am of the opinion they hold anything ranging from an unsupported belief, to an absolutely absurd belief depending on the God claim. I have no reason to envy either one of those positions.

2) What "great jewel" do they possess?

3) I don't have any venom, nor a cold hearted spirit. I enjoy a good debate, however my friends would describe me as warm, friendly and outgoing. What justification do you have to label people who disagree with your theological views in such a way?

 

[WonderBeat]

Three problems:

1) What on earth do I have any reason to envy a theist over?

Bliss.

I am of the opinion they hold anything ranging from an unsupported belief, to an absolutely absurd belief depending on the God claim. I have no reason to envy either one of those positions.

You must crucify your so-called intelligence in order to realize the actual truth, which only seems absurd, but in reality is nothing short of the Absolute Truth!

2) What "great jewel" do they possess?

Shree Krishna Chaitanya....

3) I don't have any venom, nor a cold hearted spirit. I enjoy a good debate, however my friends would describe me as warm, friendly and outgoing. What justification do you have to label people who disagree with your theological views in such a way?

If you take a demonic stance, that in itself renders you demonic. Atheism by itself is a demonic stance. Thus, there is clearly something wrong with your spirit.

 

[Skavau]

The only justification atheists have is their own envy. Envy of theists.

To think that theists possess such a great Jewel that atheists can only ponder about, is a great source of venom for their cold-hearted spirits.

You're now just being insulting now. Your shtick has changed from being arrogant and patronising towards atheists to just being outright insulting. Who are you to assume that you know exactly how all atheists feel? To declare that we all have "cold-hearted spirits"?

Grow up. The only one being obviously spiteful on anything here is you. It ebbs and flows from you whenever you speak even casually on atheism.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Bliss.

I am a very happy person.... likewise, I've seen some very unhappy theists. Therefore belief in God does not provide bliss or happiness in and of itself.

You must crucify your so-called intelligence in order to realize the actual truth, which only seems absurd, but in reality is nothing short of the Absolute Truth!

It seems like someone who would believe in something completely absurd and unsupported, and then label it absolute truth is the one that's crucified their intelligence...

Shree Krishna Chaitanya....

Rama Lama Ding Dong

If you take a demonic stance, that in itself renders you demonic. Atheism by itself is a demonic stance. Thus, there is clearly something wrong with your spirit.

Thank you for your kind words..... I suggest you lose the condescending attitude.

There's nothing "demonic" about Atheism, or me.... For example, I don't believe in Demons either, so the idea that I could be demonic is rather absurd.

And if this is the attitude you take with people that disagree with you, I'd say there's something wrong with your social skills. Try growing up sometime.

 

[Skavau]

Bliss.

Bliss can be caused by apathy or ignorance to name two undesirable traits. It isn't universally bad. I'll take inner and outer conflict with conviction over sleepwalking on some kind of ambient faith.

Not that all or even many theists have bliss. Many of them from my experience have inner doubt, and it shows.

You must crucify your so-called intelligence in order to realize the actual truth, which only seems absurd, but in reality is nothing short of the Absolute Truth!

This seems impossible. The only way to even know of 'truth' is through some level of intelligence.

If you take a demonic stance, that in itself renders you demonic. Atheism by itself is a demonic stance. Thus, there is clearly something wrong with your spirit.

Why is Atheism a "demonic stance"?

 

[madaz]

You must crucify your so-called intelligence in order to realize the actual truth, which only seems absurd, but in reality is nothing short of the Absolute Truth!

The reality is you must suspend your intelligence in order to believe lies, that is just plain common sense. That is also one of the reasons why the scourge of religion is so prevalent in poorly educated parts of the world.

Only through intelligence can we find absolute truth.

If you take a demonic stance, that in itself renders you demonic. Atheism by itself is a demonic stance. Thus, there is clearly something wrong with your spirit.

You do realise that not only is the statement above a bigoted and ignorant statement, it is also non-sequitur.

Please explain how Atheism is a demonic stance?

 

[WonderBeat]

It is we ourselves who have distanced ourselves from God over the course of millions and millions of births. At the beginning of time we all existed as jiva-atmas (eternal soul-sparks-atoms of the Divine). It is because we chose to be enjoyers in a world of space and time that this entire miserable creation came to be. In other words, this world was not made out of love, - but rather pride, lust and envy.

How do I make such a 'grandiose' claim? A number of reasons. First of all, God reveals himself to myself as spirit. And in that revealing I realize that I also am spirit. Since spirit is qualitatively identical, it must also be eternal, for God is eternal. Given the eternality of souls, the question of development and transition arises. Since we see an entire panoply of living creatures in the world, it makes sense to say there is an equality of souls. We have finally evolved to the point at which we inhabit these advanced human bodies, and this can only happen given the progression of laws.

 

[madaz]

Wonderbeat, Please explain how Atheism is a demonic stance?

 

[Dave Ellis]

It is we ourselves who have distanced ourselves from God over the course of millions and millions of births. At the beginning of time we all existed as jiva-atmas (eternal soul-sparks-atoms of the Divine). It is because we chose to be enjoyers in a world of space and time that this entire miserable creation came to be. In other words, this world was not made out of love, - but rather pride, lust and envy.

How do I make such a 'grandiose' claim? A number of reasons. First of all, God reveals himself to myself as spirit. And in that revealing I realize that I also am spirit. Since spirit is qualitatively identical, it must also be eternal, for God is eternal. Given the eternality of souls, the question of development and transition arises. Since we see an entire panoply of living creatures in the world, it makes sense to say there is an equality of souls. We have finally evolved to the point at which we inhabit these advanced human bodies, and this can only happen given the progression of laws.

And what did God's "spirit" look like? How do you know it was God, and how do you know you weren't hallucinating?

 

[WonderBeat]

And what did God's "spirit" look like? How do you know it was God, and how do you know you weren't hallucinating?

Nobody hallucinates. We contact the spiritual world.