What its like after death

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

ViaCrucis

I'm having a hard time seeing what the actual differences are between what you said the bible did not teach and what you said the bible does teach.

 

[drich0150]

I don't believe in life before being born or life after death.

If you did not believe in gravity, would you no longer be subject to it?
If so what does it matter what you believe?

So to help me understand what it be will like to not exist at all I use the idea of how I was before I was born to help me mind understanding it.

Your confusing nonexistence with no memory of an event. If I were in a traumatic car accident and could not remember what happened, does it mean those events did not occour? 'Memory' is a very frigile thing and can be influenced by all sorts of different factors, and is not a reliable standard to identify if something exists or not.

To describe non-existence first you must define it. What is existence?

I was wondering what you thought about it.

What I think is inline with Judeao/Christian Beliefs.

If you think we might have existed before being born then alright. That is a very supernatural oriented question and so I don't regard it as useful. I don't believe in those things. I can't give proof that I existed or not before I was born and I don't think that's a reasonable or logical request to make.

Define proof. What does proof look like of an after life or a prior one?

If you want to be logical, good! I do too. therefore you must provide the prameters I have requested inorder to resolve your 'logical query.'

Otherwise if you can not define existence or provide what suitible proof looks like then, how will you know if what i can provide does or does not fit the parameters you outlined?

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

Drich

My beliefs matter because they determine who I am and how I live, they are the basis for how I interact with and perceive my world and they are not conscious choices a person can make. It is foolish to ask that a person think or act outside of their beliefs.

While my belief does not determine what is real I am not going to have a conversation on things like gods, demons, existing before I was born because those ideas are illogical and warrant no consideration on my part. I am not going to try consider why logic should be dismissed.

I did not address memory at all so I did not mistake memory for anything. If you think existed before you were born then that's fine. I am not going to pursue that topic and I am not going to try to remember my life before I was born because that would be undermining logic and reason itself.

"Oh you intend to be logical! Me too, so you have a duty to logically prove that my pet unicorn from the planet Xerac doesn't exist"

Sorry but that's not how it works.

Thanks for providing what you think about existence after death. I didn't ask anything else of you. Your interest in what I think and whether or not I should or can prove it isn't the topic or important to me.

 

[drich0150]

Drich
My beliefs matter because they determine who I am and how I live, they are the basis for how I interact with and perceive my world and they are not conscious choices a person can make. It is foolish to ask that a person think or act outside of their beliefs.

So let me see if I have your brand of 'logic' down.. If you believed as so many did that the world was flat... Or if you believed that the moon was made of Cheese, or if you like so many people believed in Hitler's germany that the only road to German prosperity was to kill all jews.. It would be "Foolish" for me to try and get you to think outside of your deeply held beliefs?

You know I 'believe' you're right, just not for the reasons your think. The only way this would be a 'Foolish" Endeavor is if you already had a closed mind to anything you do not already currently believe.

So the question becomes is your mind closed to anything you do not currently believe? If so, then may I ask why are you here?

While my belief does not determine what is real I am not going to have a conversation on things like gods, demons, existing before I was born because those ideas are illogical and warrant no consideration on my part. I am not going to try consider why logic should be dismissed.

Good Again! So logically, if 'Memory' does not define existance, and your only reason for not believing in a life beyond what you can currently remember then why would you claim to 'logically' dismiss what you do not remember?

Again can you remember being born? can you remember what life was like in your mother's womb? Can you remember what you did on your 2nd new years day? Now because you have no memory does it mean you did not exist? If yes then we can narrow our defination of existence beyond the scope of what we can recall.

Do you agree here?

I did not address memory at all so I did not mistake memory for anything.

Actually you did. In the OP you assume that non existence was like the time before you were born.. which conclusivly states you assume that believe that existance is somehow tied to memory. I am showing you that conclusion is wrong despite what you strongly believe.

If you think existed before you were born then that's fine.

Don't look now sport but I just prooved to you that you existed before you were born as well.(even if you have no memory of it.)

I am not going to pursue that topic and I am not going to try to remember my life before I was born because that would be undermining logic and reason itself.

Actually my determination that you lived in your mother's womb before you were born is based in logic and reason. If you insist that it isn't, shows you have closed your mind to anything you do not currently believe.

Which again beggs the question why you are here..

"Oh you intend to be logical! Me too, so you have a duty to logically prove that my pet unicorn from the planet Xerac doesn't exist"

Sorry but that's not how it works.

Oh, but it does!
If you want me to help you find something, then it is not illogical nor unresonable for me to ask what specifically you are looking for.

I thought you were a student of logic? Is it logicial for me to just randomly bring you different things in hopes that i can magically guess what it is your seeking? Absolutly not! First you tell me what it is your seeking and I will tell you if I can provide it, or rather where you need to go to find it.

Thanks for providing what you think about existence after death. I didn't ask anything else of you. Your interest in what I think and whether or not I should or can prove it isn't the topic or important to me.

We shall see.

 

[aiki]

What its like after death

I know that Christians believe in a heaven and hell and they might also feel like there needs to be something after we die... how could we simply stop existing? What would not existing be like?

It is not that I "feel like there needs to be something after we die", but that there is something after we die is self-evident. Especially in light of Christ's resurrection, the fact of a continued existence - and my own resurrection at some point - seems to me to be quite unavoidable.

How would I have any good idea what not existing is like? I have not yet not existed. And if I did cease to exist entirely, I would not, of course, exist to know it. Thinking back to before I was born cannot tell me what it is like not to exist, because before I began to exist in my mother's womb I did not exist to experience non-existence. What memory, what experience, then, can I draw on to answer what not existing would be like? One does not have experiences when one does not exist.

I have begun to think that after I die I will go back to the way I was before I was born. That is to say that the way I was before being born is the way I will be after I die.

There is no way you were before you were conceived and born. You did not exist. So, you cannot go back to the way you were before you born. You had no "way you were" because there was no you.

This makes not existing understandable to me. This makes it easier for me to comprehend what I think not existing means.

So far, your ruminations have not made much sense to me...

How do you guys feel about the idea that we don't really need and afterlife, there doesn't have to be anything, we don't need to continue existing because we didn't need these things before we were born either?

I don't feel enthused about the idea of there being nothing after death. Makes life rather pointless, it seems to me. It would mean that whether someone lives like Mother Theresa or Hitler, the end is the same. Not a good incentive for noble, self-sacrificial behaviour. If this life is all I've got, then I would be an idiot to expend any of it in a way that did not maximize my pleasure and self-gratification.

Saying, "We don't need to continue to exist because we did not need to exist prior to existing" is, well, bizarre. This is like saying "You don't need to continue to eat because you did not need to eat before you had the need to eat." What sort of a rationale is that?!

Selah.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

Drich

You would need to provide information for my central nervous system to access and allow it a way to come to a new conclusion. Until that happens it is foolish to expect me to talk or act outside of my beliefs. I don't have the free will to act in a way other than how I believe I should and my beliefs are determined by my brain.

The rest of what you provided displays your confusion on the matter so I am not going to pursue it. You answered my original question and I have nothing else to talk to you about.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

Aiki

Thanks for providing your thoughts on the subject.

I don't think I had a nature to comprehend before I existed. It's that not existing before I was born makes sense to me and so now not existing about I die begins to make sense to me too. It didn't make sense before because as you said I don't have a memory or an experience to tie to not existing. I was trying to see what it was like to not exist and that doesn't seem like an answerable question. But when you compare ceasing to exist to before you existed it's starts making more sense to me.

The reason I brought up "needing" to exist is because it seems like people insist that they will continue to exist for the reason that they cannot comprehend nonexistence. But if we can comprehend nonexistence by considering the time before we existence then maybe they wont think they need to exist forever.

 

[drich0150]

Drich

You would need to provide information for my central nervous system to access and allow it a way to come to a new conclusion.

This is a logical fallacy (moving the goal posts)
This is also why I asked you to define existence. (so you couldn't move the goal posts) Since you did not provide a defination I worked from the defination Google provided:
ex·ist·ence
iɡˈzistəns/
noun
noun: existence the fact or state of living or having objective reality.



As per the defination provided "brain scans" are not nessary to determine whether or not something exists.

Until that happens it is foolish to expect me to talk or act outside of my beliefs.

Why? Is it as i have outlined and you have a closed mind on anything you do not currently understand?
Again this would be the only reason having this conversation would be considered 'foolish.'

I don't have the free will to act in a way other than how I believe I should and my beliefs are determined by my brain.

Uh, but you do.. As i pointed out already your existence has nothing to do with what you believe. Again, if you did not believe in gravity or if you believed truly believed you could fly like superman, does it mean you will be able to act on what you 'believe?'

If you truly want to have a logical conversation then one must be resigned to the idea that despite what we 'believe' logic may proove otherwise, and therefore one should follow the logic, and not just 'belief.'

That is if you REALLY want to adhear to the rules of 'logic' and not 'belief.' as you seem to want to do.

The rest of what you provided displays your confusion on the matter so I am not going to pursue it

I'm not the one pretending to follow logic, then hide in what I believe the first time someone questions my beliefs.

You answered my original question and I have nothing else to talk to you about.

If this were true.. then why the need to tell me?

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

Drich

I don't think a coherent and logical conversation with you is possible. Have a good day.

 

[aiki]

I don't think I had a nature to comprehend before I existed.

Okay.

It's that not existing before I was born makes sense to me and so now not existing about I die begins to make sense to me too.

But why should you think that you will end the way you began? This is a non sequitur. How can you be certain that your life is just a bridge between points of non-existence?

It didn't make sense before because as you said I don't have a memory or an experience to tie to not existing. I was trying to see what it was like to not exist and that doesn't seem like an answerable question.

I agree: It is not answerable. Non-existence has no positive character. It is not a state of being, but of non-being.

But when you compare ceasing to exist to before you existed it's starts making more sense to me.

You haven't really made clear why that is. It sounds to me like you are making an assumption about what transpires after death. It also appears that you are equating your physical self with your intangible Mind-Self, your soul, and are thinking that the end of the former necessitates the end of the latter. Why is that, exactly?

The reason I brought up "needing" to exist is because it seems like people insist that they will continue to exist for the reason that they cannot comprehend nonexistence.

Well, that may be true for some. I can't really say. It is not, however, true of me - or many other Christians whom I know.

But if we can comprehend nonexistence by considering the time before we existence then maybe they wont think they need to exist forever.

Again, I don't see how the one necessitates the other.

Selah.

 

[Joshua260]

Drich

I don't think a coherent and logical conversation with you is possible. Have a good day.

lol. First me, then drich. aiki should be joining us soon.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

Aiki

I'm not trying to argue that I will cease to exist or prove that i will. I'm saying that I believe I will and this helps me make sense of that. Not existing before birth is not the proof but rather the method of me making sense of my belief.


I don't think it's logical or reasonable to consider that I existed before I was born or that I will exist after I die. I have no reason to think that I will and it isn't reasonable to act or consider outside those boundaries of reason and logic.

When my body and brain is destroyed I will again be the way I was before my body and brain were formed. I cannot prove this and such a question undermines the concept of proof itself. I'm trying to explain myself.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

lol. First me, then drich. aiki should be joining us soon.

I do not have endless patience and I do not talk about things that do not interest me and I do not talk to people who have personal grievances against me very often and if I cannot manage both my goals and another persons methods then I stop talking to them. This is the responsible thing to do and benefits both myself and that other person.

It preserves my happiness and also allows the other person an opportunity to observe and address and possibly resolve their own short comings and accomplish the growth that they need.

If you provide enough incoherent content and the person becomes frustrated with you they are likely to go away. If after two or three of their best attempts they make no progress they are likely to give up and go away.

 

[Joshua260]

...if we can comprehend nonexistence by considering the time before we existence then maybe they wont think they need to exist forever.

I agree with aiki that it doesn't necessarily follow. But I think the more important question is why are you so concerned about people having a need to exist forever? What's your goal in doing so?

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

I agree with aiki that it doesn't necessarily follow. But I think the more important question is why are you so concerned about people having a need to exist forever? What's your goal in doing so?

I don't have a large concern or any goal other then the previously explained desire to see what you think about the information I provided. It was an interest, not a concern.

 

[Joshua260]

I do not have endless patience and I do not talk about things that do not interest me and I do not talk to people who have personal grievances against me very often and if I cannot manage both my goals and another persons methods then I stop talking to them. This is the responsible thing to do and benefits both myself and that other person.

It preserves my happiness and also allows the other person an opportunity to observe and address and possibly resolve their own short comings and accomplish the growth that they need.

If you provide enough incoherent content and the person becomes frustrated with you they are likely to go away. If after two or three of their best attempts they make no progress they are likely to give up and go away.

No one here has any personal grievances against you, my friend. I have offered to have a respectful discussion with you and you refused. I think that if you reviewed our exchanges, you would find that no insults have been coming from my side of the conversation.

 

[Joshua260]

I don't have a large concern or any goal other then the previously explained desire to see what you think about the information I provided. It was an interest, not a concern.

Oh, I'm sorry. So the following was not a goal statement?

"...if we can comprehend nonexistence by considering the time before we existence then maybe they wont think they need to exist forever."

I apologize then. I guess I just misunderstood.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

No one here has any personal grievances against you, my friend. I have offered to have a respectful discussion with you and you refused. I think that if you reviewed our exchanges, you would find that no insults have been coming from my side of the conversation.

That may be how you feel but you have convinced me otherwise, in addition to providing large amounts of data that I do not have the patience or desire to respond to. I think it is likely that you use the word "friend" to loosely and maybe that's because you feel like you're supposed to be my friend. You don't owe me that I don't think it's true anyway.

 

[Kiritsugu Emiyah]

Oh, I'm sorry. So the following was not a goal statement?

"...if we can comprehend nonexistence by considering the time before we existence then maybe they wont think they need to exist forever."

I apologize then. I guess I just misunderstood.

My OP contained the statement

How do you guys feel about the idea that...

It was very clearly stated right there. A very simple request was made. You are projecting your own feelings on to me. You are confusing your own concern with my belief for a concern on my part. Having to explain things like this and endure what appears to be your grievance toward me is frustrating and I don't do that for more than a few posts.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Very interesting! Do you think it's harder for you to comprehend yourself not existing than it is to comprehend a sandwich not existing?

I can't place myself in the position of non-existing as a thought experiment because to not exist would require the absence of a mind. But it is hardly difficult to comprehend the idea of something not existing. Again, we live in a world where things have beginnings and things have endings.

We live in a world of transience.

-CryptoLutheran