What is your threshold for gauging if a prophecy is delayed or has failed?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why should there be a presumption that "his word is truth?" If a prophecy fails, then it surely isn't truth.

Ask the Father in heaven IF His Word is Truth, IF He is REAL, to show you.

 

[ananda]

Prophecy to be fulfilled when ?

Who knows? Or, perhaps they could be seen as false prophecies, which is my point and question.

 

[ananda]

Ask the Father in heaven IF His Word is Truth, IF He is REAL, to show you.

I never got an answer from the bible's god.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Who knows? Or, perhaps they could be seen as false prophecies, which is my point and question.

The enemy of Christ and those who trust the enemy all claim God's Promise is false.

The followers of Jesus and everyone abiding in Him all know that all of God's Promises are truth.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I never got an answer from the bible's god.

That's not surprising.
Most people of the world never get an answer from Him either.

 

[cloudyday2]

Another solution to this apparently failed prophecy that was supposed to happen within the lifetimes of the listeners is "types". The prophecy is fulfilled in different forms at different times. So the first fulfillment might be Pentecost, and a second fulfillment might be the destruction of the Temple, and a third fulfillment might be the Second Coming.

 

[cloudyday2]

I think the focus on a disembodied soul is also related to the difficulties inherent in making sense of continuity of self from the current body to the resurrected body. It's like a premodern Star Trek problem: if I go into the transporter, get dematerialized and then rematerialized elsewhere, am I still me? Christian revelation of course says, "Yes, you are," but that leads to the question of how that can be the case. Enter the immaterial soul.

I don't know how that turned into people completely disregarding the resurrection of the body, though. That said, it's possible to simultaneously adhere to a general resurrection without caring too much about the Second Coming. Not completely orthodox, but I like John Polkinghorne's quantum take on it, where a cosmos made new might entail an entirely parallel universe. Obviously the laws of physics would need a complete overhaul for our own universe to be transfigured in the necessary way. Maybe it will be, or maybe it's already happened elsewhere. Who knows?

There is also the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that seems to describe an immediate afterlife of a disembodied soul with a heaven and a hell. The rich man wants to warn his still living relatives which indicates immediate afterlife of a disembodied soul rather than a general resurrection of body and soul
Rich man and Lazarus - Wikipedia

There is also the original Jewish belief in Sheol. The prophet Samuel is called back from Sheol in the form of a grumpy shade, angry to be awakened from his eternal rest. So that is an immediate afterlife, but it isn't very appealing
Witch of Endor - Wikipedia

Also there are personal experiences of ghosts. Several of my relatives have been comforted or aided by deceased loved ones. I suspect that a survey would show a significant percentage of the population has had similar experiences. A Christian is left to choose between dismissing these experiences as psychological/demonic deceptions or dismissing the "soul sleep" belief.

 

[cloudyday2]

Well, exactly. God cannot lie, so that Ben faced with Him saying something which would be called a lie if anyone else said it, Christians must believe there is another explanation.

The obvious explanation, that the Christian religion is wrong, cannot be contemplated.

I recently realized that this conservative attitude is simply Occam's Razor applied by a fundamentalist rather than an atheist. Occam's Razor says that the explanation requiring the smallest adjustment to current models should be selected. Just as a metaphysical naturalist will dismiss UFO reports that would require radical rethinking of physics, a fundamentalist will reject reasons to doubt the Bible using only the tiniest of fig leaves as an excuse. In both cases the evidence can be dismissed with statements like "well I'm sure there is an explanation even though it isn't obvious to me right now.", etc.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

that was supposed to happen within the lifetimes of the listeners

oops... false premise....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"well I'm sure there is an explanation even though it isn't obvious to me right now.",

Did you ever see in person a living horse ?

It would be obvious to you that a horse is alive, right ?

Could you identify where the kidneys are in the horse, or even the heart,
?
no?
hmmm..... Could it be noted/said: to such an observer of a living horse > "what's wrong with you , that you can't tell where the kidneys are in the horse, or even it's heart !? " (even though you admit it has both kidneys and a heart !!!!!!!!!!! )

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Several of my relatives have been comforted or aided by deceased loved ones. I suspect that a survey would show a significant percentage of the population has had similar experiences. A Christian is left to choose between dismissing these experiences as psychological/demonic deceptions or dismissing the "soul sleep" belief.

It has nothing at all to do with soul sleep doctrines or ideas.
Everything to do with mental illusions and delusions, and spiritual deceptions, which are very common.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There is also the original Jewish belief in Sheol. The prophet Samuel is called back from Sheol in the form of a grumpy shade, angry to be awakened from his eternal rest. So that is an immediate afterlife, but it isn't very appealing

When the actual truth is known, eternal life is not only appealing, but eagerly looked forward to.
All the false teachings you present in post after posts after posts, in many threads, are all attempts at what? Comfort? Gaining/ having an audience ? Getting approval from your friends ? what ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

seems to describe an immediate afterlife of a disembodied soul with a heaven and a hell.

Key word: "seems". A common false idea, btw.

 

[Silmarien]

There is also the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that seems to describe an immediate afterlife of a disembodied soul with a heaven and a hell. The rich man wants to warn his still living relatives which indicates immediate afterlife of a disembodied soul rather than a general resurrection of body and soul
Rich man and Lazarus - Wikipedia

I don't remember that parable being explicitly a disembodied afterlife, though I'm too lazy at present to go check. I'd agree that it indicates that the concept of an immediate afterlife existed, but I don't think it actually teaches one, parables being figurative and all.

I could be wrong, but I think the traditional approach is some sort of disembodied existence in God's presence before the general resurrection. Hard to make sense of the communion of saints otherwise.

Also there are personal experiences of ghosts. Several of my relatives have been comforted or aided by deceased loved ones. I suspect that a survey would show a significant percentage of the population has had similar experiences. A Christian is left to choose between dismissing these experiences as psychological/demonic deceptions or dismissing the "soul sleep" belief.

Well, that runs into the problem of subjective experience. Ghost stories are too far outside of my experience for me to believe in them, but that doesn't mean they're not true. I don't dismiss them, but I also don't trust them.

 

[cloudyday2]

When the actual truth is known, eternal life is not only appealing, but eagerly looked forward to.
All the false teachings you present in post after posts after posts, in many threads, are all attempts at what? Comfort? Gaining/ having an audience ? Getting approval from your friends ? what ?

In most cases I post to briefly relieve depression. Religion interests me and diverts my mind from more depressing thoughts. Social interaction is also helpful in relieving depression. I am not trying to convert anybody although I am pleased when others read my thoughts and think they are interesting and worthy of their replies.

Is that a crime in your book LOL

 

[ananda]

The enemy of Christ and those who trust the enemy all claim God's Promise is false.

The followers of Jesus and everyone abiding in Him all know that all of God's Promises are truth.

That brings me back to my original question: assuming that your god desires all mankind to believe in his claims and prophecies, how can we - those who do not follow him - accurately judge whether they are delayed, rather than false?

 

[ananda]

That's not surprising.
Most people of the world never get an answer from Him either.

I assume that your god desires non-believers to receive answers from him.

 

[cloudyday2]

I could be wrong, but I think the traditional approach is some sort of disembodied existence in God's presence before the general resurrection. Hard to make sense of the communion of saints otherwise.

I was thinking about a thread dedicated to the influence of Plato on Christian theology and whether or not that is an appropriate influence. Did Jesus know Plato's ideas and did he share them? I have a suspicion that Plato's influence goes back to the very earliest Christians but was not a conscious influence. The Christians with Hellenistic educations may have assumed Plato's ideas without realizing that they were foreign contaminants and then these Christians became the earliest theologians.

Well, that runs into the problem of subjective experience. Ghost stories are too far outside of my experience for me to believe in them, but that doesn't mean they're not true. I don't dismiss them, but I also don't trust them.

The problem with ghosts, UFOs, and paranormal in general is that many of the people involved have long ago sold-out any real interest they might have had in truth. Most of the books are written to make money and the facts are distorted. Ghosts are probably worse than UFOs, because at least UFOs were a national security concern briefly and handled with some integrity. Also UFOs occasionally leave some evidence on radars and things.