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What is your "endtime" view?

Markea

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Waiting for convincing proof we're in the End Times.

Just the fact that Israel continues to be at the center of world affairs... I'd say that's pretty important... Iran wants to to wipe them off the map... and some folks think that it's all insignificant as far as 'end time' events go...? ? ?

OT Prophecy speaks of all nations gathering against Israel in the end, and that is when they will ultimately call upon the name of the Lord, and be saved... as a nation... it's like a woman travailing in pain being with child...

It's Israel with Christ... the nation will be born again in the midst of the greatest tribulation this earth has ever seen...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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...does that mean the USA is non-gentile? :confused: There are several million more Jews here then in Israel. :sorry:
tulc(just wondering) :)
And probably just as big percentage of Muslims in both. :)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Iran doesn't think so... ;)
I am not over there so I don't worry about it much. But if any residents of Israel want to come stay with me until it blows over, I will welcome them.
 
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tulc

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America is a Gentile nation in the biblical context... as is every nation on earth except Israel... and Jerusalem is the city of the great King... it is where our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ will rule the nations from, in that Day... the Day of Jesus Christ...

uhmmm When He rules there it will be special, but until then? It's simply another country filled with people in need. :sorry:
tulc(just thought it should be pointed out) :)
 
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Bible2

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LamorakDesGalis posted in message #1:

What is your "endtime" view?

What has to happen next is the tribulation of
Revelation chapters 6-18, which will be followed by
the second coming of Jesus in Revelation 19:11-21,
which will be followed by the millennium of
Revelation 20:4-6, which will be followed by the
battle of Gog and Magog of Revelation 20:7-9, which
will be followed by the great white throne judgment
of Revelation 20:11-15, which will be followed by the
creation of a new earth and the descent of the
heavenly city of New Jerusalem of Revelation 21:1-5.
 
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Bible2

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LamorakDesGalis posted in message #2:

My end-time view is the standard dispensational
view. That is, a belief in the pretribulational
rapture and a (future) premillennial reign of Christ
on earth.

On what scriptures is the view of a pretribulational
rapture based?

How does the view of a pretribulational rapture
address Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13, Matthew 24:29-31,
Mark 13:24-27, and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8?
 
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Bible2

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LittleLambofJesus posted in message #20:

How much longer do we have to wait before Jesus returns?

Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation that saw the 1948 re-establishment of Israel (which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree: Matthew 24:32-34, cf. Hosea 9:10) won't pass until all the events of Matthew 24:5-31 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).
 
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Bible2

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Markea said:

Just the fact that Israel continues to be at the center of world affairs... I'd say that's pretty important... Iran wants to to wipe them off the map... and some folks think that it's all insignificant as far as 'end time' events go...? ? ?

Don't forget that the Arabs also want to wipe Israel from the map. What could end up happening could be ironic in that in its great desire to defend Israel from Iran, the U.S. could end up sealing Israel's fate at the hands of a massive Arab Army during a future war.

One way this war could happen is that the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army (for the U.S. and Israel) for an all-out ground invasion of Iran (to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime). As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, the CIA and the Mossad could then help the Baathists (who see non-Arab Iran as an enemy of Arab autonomy) to take back complete control of Iraq via a coup d'etat.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a third Jewish temple. This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran and instead turn and send their huge army against tiny Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this would not be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat the current Egyptian regime (Daniel 11:15), which the Baathists could see as a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as a colony of the U.S. The ultimate aim of Baathism is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the Baathist Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hizballah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Tiny Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from three directions at the same time, with thousands of missiles raining down all at once on all of its cities and military bases, and hundreds of Iraqi tanks (meant to occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its tiny sliver of land completely overrun, and sees its defeat as imminent, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and all the other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that a fourth of the world could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the coming tribulation, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

After an Iraqi Baathist General who led the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification".

The first thing the Antichrist could do once he's given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated Israel), is to perform a very small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26, Daniel 11:22). They could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm.

Then, instead of executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false "Messiah", the Antichrist will do an amazing thing: he will make a peace treaty with them (Daniel 11:23); he will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26), permitting them to keep a third Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there.

By this seven-year peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "take back" Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations.

During the first two or three years of the seven-year peace treaty, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "world peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7).

Then, only two or three years after making the seven-year peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and sit in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth in all the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) for 42 months (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 11:2b), or 1,260 days (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 11:3), or "a time, and times, and half a time" (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).

The second coming of Jesus Christ may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the worshippers of the Antichrist (Revelation 16). When Jesus returns he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the beast) (Revelation 19:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:8), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then Jesus and the just-resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Markea said:

OT Prophecy speaks of all nations gathering against Israel in the end, and that is when they will ultimately call upon the name of the Lord, and be saved... as a nation... it's like a woman travailing in pain being with child...

It's Israel with Christ... the nation will be born again in the midst of the greatest tribulation this earth has ever seen...

Does any scripture say that all nations will gather against the Jews in Jerusalem before the very end of the tribulation, right before the second coming (Zechariah 14:2-4)? Isn't it at the second coming that all of a surviving remnant of elect unbelieving Jews will be saved (Romans 11:26)? Aren't they saved when they see Jesus at His return to defeat the nations gathered against them in Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:9-14)? And when they are saved, won't they become part of the church, just as saved Jews have always become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13)?
 
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Bible2

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LittleLambofJesus said:

I am not over there so I don't worry about it much. But if any residents of Israel want to come stay with me until it blows over, I will welcome them.

Could it be this idea that could help to ultimately ensure the U.S.'s effective abandonment of the state of Israel after its total defeat in the future?

If an Iraqi Baathist General manages to defeat U.S. allies Israel and Egypt (Daniel 11:15-17) with a massive Iraqi Army provided to him by the U.S. for use against Iran instead, the U.S. could then try to make a huge amphibious counter-attack in Egypt, only to see its invasion force cut to shreds in the sea by tens of thousands of rockets and missiles fired from shore, resulting in the loss of something like 20,000 U.S. military personnel in a single day.

This could cause a huge uproar among the U.S. public, which could cry out: "What are we doing over there? Who cares about Egypt? And why in the world do the Israelis have to live in that awful region surrounded by so many hateful and powerful enemies? Let all the Israelis come over here to America and live in freedom and peace with us. Why should any more of our precious young men and women be slaughtered over this madness in the Middle East?" And so the U.S. could withdraw from attempting any more counter-attacks to "take back" Egypt and Israel. Also, a bankruptcy of the U.S. government at this same time because of a massive run on the U.S. dollar after its disastrous failure in the counter-attack could render the U.S. simply unable for a time to finance any more huge military adventures overseas.

The U.S. could instead blockade the Baathists with its Navy and call an emergency session of the United Nations Security Council to address the situation. But Russia and China could veto any votes to send in U.N. forces, saying "What right does the world have to interfere in this act of Arab self-determination? How is Arab Iraq invading Arab Palestine and Arab Egypt to bring about a free union of Arabs any different than the American United States in the north invading the American Confederate States in the south during the American Civil War to establish a free union of all Americans? Should the U.N. invade America to restore the Confederacy? And how is the Arabs throwing the Jews off their land any different than the Americans throwing the Indians off their land? Should the U.N. invade America to restore the Indians to their land?"

The U.S. could then turn to the U.N. General Assembly, only to have its spokesman hooted and shouted from the podium by a world that is jealous of America's power: "Ha! Ha! Great America is defeated! And no one wants to help it restore its hegemony in the Middle East!".

The U.S. could then turn to NATO, only to have the Europeans turn down its request to send the armies of Europe (as they could say) "into the jaws of death, and for what?".

Russia and China, seeing America's isolation, could then send in military "advisors" into the "United Arab States" and shore it up with massive amounts of military hardware and training. Oil-thirsty China could do so in exchange for cheap oil, and oil-rich Russia could sell its advanced military hardware in exchange for huge amounts of cash.

Ultimately, the U.S. could find itself completely blocked out of the Middle East and all of its oil, but could pretend that it's the Middle East that is "blockaded" by the U.S. Navy. To get around the U.S. naval blockade, China could build an oil pipeline from the Middle East to far western China, and Russia could send its military hardware sales into the Middle East by rail, truck, and air across the Caucasus and eastern Turkey.
 
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Brain Damage

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How would you describe your "endtime" view?

You don't have to defend your view - just explain it briefly. Or explain it with as much detail as you want. It can be a common view, a modified view or even a view unique to you. If you are thinking of possibilities or even don't have a view, then that's fine to post anything along those lines. I suspect there is a lot of diversity in this forum.
Iran will take over Iraq and become the Beast that once was and will be again. (media persian empire)
If we check out the old roman empire we see that Iran and Iraq were no part of it , hence the beast that is looking for 10 within to join it to wipe out Israel.
 
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eliyahu137

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It is very wise to interpret the times according to the Bible and not to interpret the Bible according to the times.

This also means that you are almost certainly going to be wrong if you are interpreting the Bible in light of the layout of nations today and trying to allign them with Bible prophecy. Doing this is not what the Bible calls us to do either. You can go ahead and believe that you are specially annointed and that God has shown you that your insight is true. But you will join the ranks of multitudes who thought the same thing and were all wrong. Your choice.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It is very wise to interpret the times according to the Bible and not to interpret the Bible according to the times.

This also means that you are almost certainly going to be wrong if you are interpreting the Bible in light of the layout of nations today and trying to allign them with Bible prophecy. Doing this is not what the Bible calls us to do either. You can go ahead and believe that you are specially annointed and that God has shown you that your insight is true. But you will join the ranks of multitudes who thought the same thing and were all wrong. Your choice.
Hi and good post. Did you already give your view of the endtime?
There are 2 end-times showing in Revelation so which one of those would be fulfilling Daniel for example, the one before or after the 1000yr period. Thanks

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6813701&page=37

Daniel 12:4 And thou Daniye'l, stop-up! the words, and seal! the Scroll till time of End. They shall swerved, many ones, and The Knowledge shall abound.
 
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tulc

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You are all falling into the trap set 2000 years ago.Rev22/18
That makes all of you wrong Your reward is Rev.22/18-19
walt2000 (emph. added)

...or we're right and you're wrong? :confused: It seems odd to me God would allow His whole Church be wrong for over 2000 years and only you would be right. :sorry:
tulc(just a thought) :)
 
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...or we're right and you're wrong? :confused: It seems odd to me God would allow His whole Church be wrong for over 2000 years and only you would be right. :sorry:
tulc(just a thought) :)

The majority of Christendom has believed a wide variety of incorrect things throughout history. I don't think I need to remind anyone that slavery was accepted as correct behavior up until fairly recently.
 
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zeke37

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How would you describe your "endtime" view?

You don't have to defend your view - just explain it briefly. Or explain it with as much detail as you want. It can be a common view, a modified view or even a view unique to you. If you are thinking of possibilities or even don't have a view, then that's fine to post anything along those lines. I suspect there is a lot of diversity in this forum...

I do ask that posters refrain from attempts to attack or disprove other views in this thread. Heck, you have the rest of the eschatology forum to do that if you want! :p This thread should be descriptive and explanatory of the various views.

Feel free though to ask questions or ask for definitions of terms. A lot of people aren't familiar with the variety of end-times views and terms that are out there...


LDG

End-time view:
My end-time view is the standard dispensational view. That is, a belief in the pretribulational rapture and a (future) premillennial reign of Christ on earth.

My understanding is that there is no pre trib gathering, that the gathering to Christ is post tribulation, or after that final hour of temptation. I believe in a Millennial reign of Christ on earth, yet future....but soon, as we are in the last generation.

My understanding is that the pre trib rapture theory (who holds to it) is the means with which Satan fools the world...is part of the flood of lies that comes from the dragon's mouth...pre trib tells of Christ coming first, when Christ does not come first, but after the fake. I mention this because it is a staple of what I believe and is one of the few platforms on which I speak.

Satan will be cast bodily from heaven to the earth (by Michael who currently holds him) for a short season, and deceive the world. he shall play act Jesus Christ returned and all but the elect (small number of Christian witnesses) shall be taken by this flood of lies. They (the whole world including Christians) shall believe that he is Christ returned...claim to be God.

It is my attempt to show that the church is indeed here in that time, some working for God, the rest apostate (believing the lie that he is back to make ready for the rapture).

Organization or denominational background:
I'm a long-time member of a non-denominational Bible church. Most of the members are also premillennial dispensationalists. Before the Bible church, I was a member of the overwhelmingly amillennial Church of Christ. That made for some interesting discussions from time to time. ;)

x-Catholic, current non denominational bible church. Members have the same end time understanding as I do. Use of Strong's Concordance to futher understanding of the original words used in the manuscripts. Favorite bible translation is the Bullinger printing of the KJV.

Other thoughts on end-times:
I have never held any other end-time view beside the dispensational pretrib/premil view. However I've had many interesting and profitable conversations with folks who hold different views than mine. I'm pretty certain I've covered all the major ones, and a good number of the minor ones (including full preterists).
LDG

I had no structured belief, then pre trib at the beginning of my current relationship with Christ.....and now, completely post trib 100% and I do not understand how anyone could see things differently...(lol)

in His service
c
 
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walt2000

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...or we're right and you're wrong? :confused: It seems odd to me God would allow His whole Church be wrong for over 2000 years and only you would be right. :sorry:
tulc(just a thought) :)

You make your self wrong the moment you add, any other book ,or part of any book of the bible,or version , and move it, or take anything ,out of the book of revelations.When you do that .You are messing up the alignment ,that has hidden the message of the Seven Thunders in Revelations for 2000 years ,moreover there is a eighth thunder Rev.14/2 that is also hidden ,that is hidden still deeper. It is Like a seven dimensional happening of one event .And a eighth Thunder wrapping it all together.
And I did not put that together ,Christ did.That is why he put Rev.22/18-19 in there ,so that It will be hidden ,and a sin ,to get it wrong, that is , until the time is right. And I am afraid ,You are all ,all wrong ,and I AM SORRY.
I have at least seven different versions that say that they are right,but Christ says only one is right.And you haven't got it.
Look to my chart.
It is consecutive and in order ,all scripture is in order, as it came out of the mouth of Christ ,given to john.walt2000
 
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