What is your end times view on the rapture?

[iamlamad]

What is the THEME of the passage? The gathering....

Diversion and another topic.

When trying to understand a passage of scripture, context is king and the theme of passage is part of the context .

You should know these things! it is no wonder we disagree on the meaning of this passage.

 

[iamlamad]

Just go back to my post and answer the questions I ask! I believe there are 9 of them.

I fear it would be a waste of time.

Let's try and come to some kind of an agreement on verses 3 & 4.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

In Paul's argument here, is the man of sin revealed by the end of verse 3?

 

[iamlamad]

Well it say: 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

And we're told: Zechariah 14 3Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

But if you don't think He will land on the earth on that day when do you think He will? And where do you think He will go after meeting us in the air?

These are fair questions. Where will He go after the meeting in the air? i think John 14 answers this. He want to prepare places, homes, mansions, palaces, or abodes for us. Where? In heaven, of course, for that is where He went. So when He comes to get us, He will take us to the homes He has prepared. This will take place, in Revelation, between the 5th and 6th seal, but just a moment before the earthquake of the 6th seal. That great earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. (See Matthew 27:50-51)
He will come again as shown in Rev. 19, in splendor and power, with all the armies of heaven with Him. That will include the saints who were raptured 7+ years before. Hint: He does NOT return on the last day of the 70th week as many suppose. He will come some short time AFTER the end of "the tribulation." (You will notice that the 70th week ends with the 7th vial, but there are chapters 17 and 18 between that and when Jesus returns in chapter 19.)

 

[Guide To The Bible]

These are fair questions. Where will He go after the meeting in the air? i think John 14 answers this. He want to prepare places, homes, mansions, palaces, or abodes for us. Where? In heaven, of course, for that is where He went. So when He comes to get us, He will take us to the homes He has prepared. This will take place, in Revelation, between the 5th and 6th seal, but just a moment before the earthquake of the 6th seal. That great earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. (See Matthew 27:50-51)
He will come again as shown in Rev. 19, in splendor and power, with all the armies of heaven with Him. That will include the saints who were raptured 7+ years before. Hint: He does NOT return on the last day of the 70th week as many suppose. He will come some short time AFTER the end of "the tribulation." (You will notice that the 70th week ends with the 7th vial, but there are chapters 17 and 18 between that and when Jesus returns in chapter 19.)

The pre and mid-tribulation rapture theories were introduced into the Church by John Nelson Darby b.1800 d.1882 and then widely expanded on and promoted by Cyrus Scofield b.1843 d.1921 in his own reference Bible that he made a lot of money from. It never existed before this.

 

[Postvieww]

Let's go to the fair.
It is a fair day.

He was killed with a lead pipe.
If you are going to lead, then lead!

He hit the ball so hard, he broke the bat.
The bat swooped down and landed in my hair!

I caught a five pound bass on my first cast!
He sings bass in a quartet.

Just finding how a word is used in one verse does not tell us for sure how it will be used in another verse. We must understand the meaning of word by the context of that word.

Let's go to the fair.
It is a fair day.

He was killed with a lead pipe.
If you are going to lead, then lead!

He hit the ball so hard, he broke the bat.
The bat swooped down and landed in my hair!

I caught a five pound bass on my first cast!
He sings bass in a quartet.

Just finding how a word is used in one verse does not tell us for sure how it will be used in another verse. We must understand the meaning of word by the context of that word.

Cute, but that in no way backs your point. Nothing in the context says Apostasia means what you claim. It is overwhelmingly translated falling away or something that means the same thing as Strong’s definition, even your favorite Amplified spells it out for you and you still try to change it to a departure from the planet, claiming context. Context in this case does not side with you. Paul said plainly in 1 Timothy 4:1 that some will depart from the faith.


I’ve debating with you long enough to know I am not going to change your mind on anything but when you ignore the tough questions you either can’t or won’t answer that tells the readers on this forum all they need to know about your position. Questions in post # 231 please.

 

[iamlamad]

The pre and mid-tribulation rapture theories were introduced into the Church by John Nelson Darby b.1800 d.1882 and then widely expanded on and promoted by Cyrus Scofield b.1843 d.1921 in his own reference Bible that he made a lot of money from. It never existed before this.

Oh Brother! You are going to turn into a copy and paste expert as another on this forum? I guess you really did not want an honest answer to your question.

My friend, were you alive in the first, second, third, forth, etc centuries to know what was preached then about the rapture? No, you weren't and neither was anyone else that is alive today, save Jesus Christ.

Perhaps these theories were not popular back then, and these men made their theories more popular.....i could agree with that. However, God was pretrib, and then Paul became pretrib, and there have been believers since then that have been pretrib in their belief.

Why did the Scofield Reverence bible "made a lot of money?" It was because people bought them....millions of them. WHY did so many people buy this bible? Because the references were well written. People WANTED a bible with references.

 

[SkyWriting]

I am curious of the end times views on this forum. I would appreciate if you would vote on this poll to see what the majority view is. Thanks.

***Note: Please don't debate views or argue with others on this thread. There are plenty of threads for that. If you want to post your view, that is great. I know this is a touchy subject for many, I just know it can get heated. I mainly want a poll to just see how views are split.

As we learned in this election, personal prophesy is (correctly) not allowed as a topic.

 

[iamlamad]

Cute, but that in no way backs your point. Nothing in the context says Apostasia means what you claim. It is overwhelmingly translated falling away or something that means the same thing as Strong’s definition, even your favorite Amplified spells it out for you and you still try to change it to a departure from the planet, claiming context. Context in this case does not side with you. Paul said plainly in 1 Timothy 4:1 that some will depart from the faith.


I’ve debating with you long enough to know I am not going to change your mind on anything but when you ignore the tough questions you either can’t or won’t answer that tells the readers on this forum all they need to know about your position. Questions in post # 231 please.

Like I said, let's start at the begining and see if we can agree on one point: in 2 Thes. 2, verses 3B & 4, can we at least agree that here, in Paul's argument, the man of sin IS revealed?

If we can agree on this point, we can try another small bite. This way we won't write very long answers.

I will get to your questions, but one at a time.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I have never understood all the to-do about this topic. My end times view is: Be a good disciple; obey the commandments; love the Lord Your God with all your heart, soul, & might; love your neighbor as yourself; walk in the Way of Jesus...and it will all just work out. I don't have to have a position on it nor understand it, for that matter. What happens is what He wills to happen, when He wills it to happen. All I can do is be ready.

 

[iamlamad]

[quote-Postvieww]
We don’t know how many some are in 1 Timothy 4:1 nor do we need to know, just as we don’t know how may are involved in the falling away, nor do we need to know. That number is not relevant since when the man of sin is revealed everyone will know it and the number that fell away is irrelevant at that point. You are attempting to come up with some kind of argument to detract from what the passage actually says because you are desperate to eliminate the clear meaning of this passage from the discussion on this topic. [/quote]

It seems we must back up to an even more basic question.

Do you agree that Paul's basic argument in this passage is to explain how people can know they are IN the Day (it has already stated and they are in it)?

 

[Revealing Times]

Sorry, you may think this, but your thinking will not make it truth. In fact, it is so far from truth it is almost laughable.

You just don't understand John's Chronology.
Revelation 19 covers events AFTER the 70th week has finished.
Revelation 17 and 18 covers events after the 70th week has finished, but before the events in chapter 19. I might add, exactly the way John wrote it.

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

There is no 17 and 18, if you read 16 you will find out Jesus shows up and whips the Anti-Christ there, and an Angel says IT IS DONE.....I Know Revelation inside and out. I did nor just say much of it overlaps guessing, I have actually did an in depth study, and a blog on it.

Revelation is not in chronological order

Revelation chapter six is the Seals so it is not ending right before the return of Christ with us Saints in Revelation 19. The end of each of these chapters I point out below ends close to Jesus' return, like chapter 12, we know it starts at around the birth of Israel/birth of Christ but it ends with Satan chasing Israel into the wilderness in the 42 month period and her being protected 42 months, which puts the end of the chapter right at Jesus' return.

1. Revelation chapter 7 ends with the Saints that died in the Tribulation standing before the throne of God.
2. Rev. 9 has the Armies of Armageddon/200 thousand, thousand.
3. Rev. 10 is John eating the the book which had the uttering's of the seven thunders, in 7:7 it says when he begins to sound, the mystery of God will be finished.
4. In Revelation 11 the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days. The end of the 1260 will be very close to the end. (with a month or so)
5. In Revelation chapter 12 I have already explained, it ends with Israel in the Wilderness
6. Rev. 13 speaks of the Beast and his 42 months. This will end at Jesus' coming no doubt, then Jesus comes to rescue them.
7. Rev. 14 has Jesus and the 144,000 and ends with the angel thrusting the sickle into the earth to harvest the harvest.
8. Rev. 15 is the Seven Last Plagues. Same as Seven Vials.
9. Rev. 16 is the Seven Vials of Gods wrath.
9. Rev. 17 is the Great Harlot being Judged of God. (Happens in Revelation chapter 6 and 7)
10. Rev. 18 is the World (Babylon) being judged by God, in the Seals, Trumpets and Vials. It ends in Rev. 16.

Then in Revelation 19 we see the Saints who were raptured coming back with Jesus on white horses. So much of the book of Revelation is happening at the same time.

All of those chapters are happening concurrently.

I don;t think, I KNOW..........THAT I KNOW, THAT I KNOW.

 

[iamlamad]

If you know anything about the rules of math, you should recognize that "Apostasia," and "Restraining" and ""taken out of the way" are all equivalent in meaning for in each case the result is the same: the man of sin revealed.

We are not doing fuzzy math here we are reading the Holy Scriptures.

This is not "fuzzy math," it is just understanding basic English sentence structure. For example, if A equals B and B equals C then A MUST equal C. I hope you learned this back in the 6th grade or so. Paul does something very similar in our passage of scripture.

So HOW does this relate? I have showed it at least three times now, and it seems you have missed it all three times. But I will try again.

Paul made a statement of truth three different times in this passage, but used different words. Each time has an A part and a B part. In the A part something prevents the man of sin from being revealed, or something allows him to be revealed, and in the B part he is or will be revealed at the right time.

In verse three Paul tells us that something must happen and then the man of sin is revealed. That something is the apostasia.

Then in verse 6 Paul repeats the same pattern: NOW we know what is doing the restraining (Paul and I know but you still don't) so that the man of sin will be revealed at the right time.

In verse 7 (the A part) the restrainer is and will continue to restrain until he is taken out of the way....
In verse 8 (the B part) the wicked man of sin will be revealed.

In case you cannot recognize this, they are parallels. The A part in verse 7 equates to the A part in verse 6 and equates to the A part in verse 3.

The B part in verse 8 equates to the B part in verse 6 and to the B part in verse 3.

Therefore the "apostasia" in verse 3 must be none other than the one restraining. It can be nothing else.

You will find it very (extremely) difficult to disagree with Paul that in verse 3B the man of sin IS REVEALED (in Paul's argument - not in reality). We know that because Paul tells us HOW he is revealed: that he will sit in the temple and declare he is god. When he does this he is revealed. If you will notice, verse 4 is the same sentence as in verse 3: Paul ends this sentence in verse 4.

Notice in verse 7, the restrainer is restraining until he is taken out of the way, and THEN the man of sin is revealed (verse 8)

In verse 6, We KNOW (you should know by now) who is restraining - preventing the man of sin from being revealed - until the right time. What then? At the right time he WILL BE revealed.

Finally in verse three, the apostasia takes place, and the man of sin IS REVEALED.

Parallels. Simple math but in English (and before that in Greek).

Therefore by "apostasia" Paul's meaning absolutely must be the restrainer "taken out of the way."

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 17 and 18 covers events after the 70th week has finished, but before the events in chapter 19. I might add, exactly the way John wrote it.

There is no 17 and 18, if you read 16 you will find out Jesus shows up and whips the Anti-Christ there, and an Angel says IT IS DONE.....I Know Revelation inside and out. I did nor just say much of it overlaps guessing, I have actually did an in depth study, and a blog on it.

That is a strange sentence: every bible I have ever seen has chapters 17 and 18 in the book of Revelation. Sorry, but your imagination is getting the best of you. There is no coming in chapter 16, unless you are reading something between the lines that is not there. In verse 15 Jesus said that He comes as a thief, but that is the only thing there about a coming.

So what is it that is done? It is not His coming! It is the 70th week that is done or finished. it ends with the 7th vial. The real coming of Christ is shown in chapter 19. And in Matthew 24 Jesus said He would come “immediately after…” Notice the word “after.” After means NOT at the same time as, but later. You say you know Revelation “inside and out.” However, since you have written this post, I disagree. You may think you know John’s chronology, but I think you don’t.

Revelation is not in chronological order

It is in chronological order as much as it is possible to write of several things happening at once. John was extremely careful to get things written in the order they will come.

Surely you understand, if more than one thing is happening at exactly the same time, only one thing can be written at one time.

Revelation chapter six is the Seals so it is not ending right before the return of Christ with us Saints in Revelation 19. The end of each of these chapters I point out below ends close to Jesus' return, like chapter 12, we know it starts at around the birth of Israel/birth of Christ but it ends with Satan chasing Israel into the wilderness in the 42 month period and her being protected 42 months, which puts the end of the chapter right at Jesus' return.

I guess you know, John numbered the seals, the trumpets, the vials and the woes for chronology. Why would ANYONE think the other things would not be in the right order? Since it IS WRITTEN in an order, it will be up to you to prove it is in any kind of wrong order.

Seals 1-6 are numbered. Other things MUST BE accomplished before the 7th seal is broken, so John breaks from his narrative of the seals after seal 6, and tells us the two things that MUST happen before the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week. Those two things are: 1: the church MUST BE raptured and taken to heaven before God’s wrath is poured out. John saw the just raptured church around the throne in heaven in chapter 7.
2: the 144,000 MUST BE sealed for their protection before the 7th seal makes the way for the trumpet judgments.

Therefore this part of the book is in perfect order. The end of chapter 6 is the start of God’s wrath. I know this because it is exactly what John wrote. The time frame here is over 6 years before Jesus’ return on the white horse.

You are lost on chapter 12. You have failed to realize 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis and has no bearing on chronology. And 12:6 is in perfect order: a second or two after the abomination that took place in chapter 11 at the sounding of the 7th trumpet – the marker for the exact midpoint of the week. Also just after those in Judea begin to flee (verse 6) Michael goes after Satan to take him down: the great war in the heavenlies. Sorry, but the end of chapter 12 is the MIDPOINT of the week, not the end!

 

[iamlamad]

1. Revelation chapter 7 ends with the Saints that died in the Tribulation standing before the throne of God.

Sorry, but John has not even started the 70th week in his narrative, much less arrived at those days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of. You are miles off here. John is showing us the just raptured church! They are in heaven. There is not even the slightest hint that they have died. All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be being killed (great tribulation) because they love Jesus around the world. We are fast approaching that scenario.

Did you not realize that those two words together: "great tribulation” don’t always mean the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of? Those two words alone were not enough for Jesus: He had to add that they would be greater than any other time, before or after.

2. Rev. 9 has the Armies of Armageddon/200 thousand, thousand.

Revelation 9 has absolutely nothing to do with Armageddon! You are adlibbing again. This is trumpet #6 that comes just before the midpoint of the week. Always remember, NO vial can be poured out until all 7 trumpet judgments take place, and NO trumpet judgment can come until all 7 seals have been broken.

3. Rev. 10 is John eating the the book which had the uttering's of the seven thunders, in 7:7 (10:7) it says when he begins to sound, the mystery of God will be finished.

So you imagine that the mystery is the end of the 70th week? You are only guessing. It is not. It is a mystery that is about events at the MIDPOINT of the week. It is certainly related to the kingdoms of the world being transferred to Jesus Christ. It is also related to the war in heaven.

4. In Revelation 11 the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days. The end of the 1260 will be very close to the end. (with a month or so)

WOW! I am impressed! Many people think they prophesy in the first half of the week! Good job! However, they begin their testimony just 3 ½ days before the exact midpoint, and end just 3 ½ days before the 7th vial ends the week. They lay dead for those 3 ½ days, then rise up at the 7th vial. I believe that is when ALL the Old Testament saints rise.

5. In Revelation chapter 12 I have already explained, it ends with Israel in the Wilderness

Not quite. The last verse is about the devil: failing to get to those who fled into the wilderness, he turns to the “remnant of her seed.” Who would that be? Anyone who loves Jesus. Why “remnant?” Because the main load went out in the pretrib rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

6. Rev. 13 speaks of the Beast and his 42 months. This will end at Jesus' coming no doubt, then Jesus comes to rescue them.

If you read closely, you will find that there are 6 separate timelines going on here, from Rev. 11 on to the end of the week:

1. The timeline of the 42 months of trampling.
2. The timeline of the 1260 days of witnessing.
3. The timeline of the 1260 days of fleeing and protection in the wilderness
4. The 3 ½ years of protection and feeding of those that fled.
5. The 42 months of authority.

6. John narrative timeline, telling about these other five the best way he can.

It would be impossible for John to write of these 5 all at the same time. I believe that the trampling starts first, the witnessing next, the fleeing next, etc – in the exact order they will take place. So again I find John’s chronology perfect. All five of these timelines runs parallel, happening at the same time for the last half of the 70th week.

7. Rev. 14 has Jesus and the 144,000 and ends with the angel thrusting the sickle into the earth to harvest the harvest.

Many people miss the fact that verses 14 to 20 are written as a prophecy of soon to come events. For example, the judgment of the wicked does not happen in chapter 14: it happens in chapter 20. These verses are prophetic.

8. Rev. 15 is the Seven Last Plagues. Same as Seven Vials.

Not quite: this chapter is the PREPARATION for the vials. The first verses of chapter 15 show us that the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of are starting. Beheaded saints are beginning to show up in heaven.

9. Rev. 16 is the Seven Vials of Gods wrath.
9. Rev. 17 is the Great Harlot being Judged of God. (Happens in Revelation chapter 6 and 7)

WRONG! the Great Harlot being Judged has nothing to do with the events of chapters 6 & 7! (The events of chapters 6 & 7 took place over 7 years before.) The judgment of Babylon begins at the 7th vial. The 70th week is over and the city of Jerusalem (the seat of wickedness where the Beast and False Prophet deceived the world) called the great Wh*re Mystery Babylon - will be destroyed. Jerusalem the city will be rebuilt, but NEVER AGAIN will people be deceived from this city. Jerusalem as Babylon will never exist again. The cities of the world are destroyed at the terrible earthquake of the 7th vial.

10. Rev. 18 is the World (Babylon) being judged by God, in the Seals, Trumpets and Vials. It ends in Rev. 16.

Sorry, but this chapter is still talking about the destruction of Jerusalem as “Mystery Babylon the Great.”

Then in Revelation 19 we see the Saints who were raptured coming back with Jesus on white horses. So much of the book of Revelation is happening at the same time.

First we see the marriage and marriage supper taking place in heaven. THEN the saints return with Jesus.

All of those chapters are happening concurrently
I don;t think, I KNOW..........THAT I KNOW, THAT I KNOW.

Hardly! From the 7th vial to the 7th seal will be 7 long years: the 70th week of Daniel.

 

[BABerean2]

Hardly! From the 7th vial to the 7th seal will be 7 long years: the 70th week of Daniel.

The covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.
Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared.
The New Covenant had already been promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

The angel Gabriel did not mention an antichrist in Daniel chapter 9.
The angel did not mention a "gap" of time in the 490 year prophecy.
The angel Gabriel did not "forget" to mention the New Covenant promised to Jeremiah.

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Darby showed up on our shores.

.....................................................................
Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

...................................................................

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

Christ commanded that the Gospel was to be taken "first" to Daniel's people.
This was done up until the time that Stephen reviewed the history of Israel and was then stoned.
This was the end of the 70th week. After that the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles. Almost all of the first members of the New Covenant Church were Daniel's people. Based on Acts 2:36, they were of "all the house of Israel".
The week began when John the Baptist placed Jesus in the waters of the Jordan and He was anointed by His Father from heaven.

The Old Covenant is now "obsolete", based in Hebrews 8:13. Therefore, God is not going back to an obsolete covenant with Moses as the mediator instead of Christ, during a future time of 7 years. (Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 13:20) If God ripped the temple veil in half on the day of the Cross, no man will repair it.

The New Covenant is "everlasting", based on Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the "Church Age" does not end before the Second Coming of Christ.
This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.


Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

 

[Revealing Times]

Scripture reveals a temple will be rebuilt and only the messiah can build the temple according to the scriptures

There will be a Temple, but you will have to inform me where scriptures say only the Messiah can build a Temple. I don't think this is the case.

a temple must be rebuilt first for end times to take place for the final antichrist and man of sin will sit in that future temple as god and persecuted those who will not believe and worship him or his idol...

Again, nowhere does Scripture say the Anti-Christ is received by Israel as their Messiah, later I will show you that Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah before the Abomination of Desolation happens, and why. The Anti-Christ means someone that is OPPOSED to Jesus Christ, it doesn't mean he is the Messiah..........Anti...........Messiah, since Christ is Greek for Messiah. He opposes the Messiah.

Lol ok if you wish to believe that Simon was the fulfillment of his prophecy be my guess ... but I'm afraid that's not the case ... the fulfillment is still yet to come ... end times reveal many false messiahs yet to come .. a dynasty if you will ..and points toward Jerusalem and the temple

I again didn't call any names specifically per se, I USED AN ILLUSTRATION.............It might have been him, and others, or others, the point being, your pegging of this as having to be an END TIME EVENT, is just not factual. As a matter of fact because of scriptures, it can't be an END TIME EVENT. I don't care who it was, that was just an illustrated point.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can show you where the Jews accept their Messiah Jesus before the Abomination of Desolation happens.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sure go ahead...

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

{{ Elijah is one of the Two-Witnesses, the Day of the Lord is a period of 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath. God is going to send Elijah to turn Israel back unto the Israel it was when they served God. }}

Zechariah 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

{{ God turns his FACE BACK UNTO Israel, where heretofore for 2500 years only Gods back has been shown to Israel, so WHY DID GOD CHANGE ? Because Israel accepted the one the PIERCED as their Messiah, OF COURSE, and they mourned the fact that they had rejected and killed their own Messiah. But when does this happen ? Well Malachi says it happens before the Day of the Lord, we have some other clues in Zechariah 14 which we will look at later, now own to Zechariah 13.}}

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: 5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

{{ This is God saying, IN THAT DAY....Well what day ? The Day Israel Repents and accepts Jesus as their Messiah, IN THAT DAY.....There will be a FOUNTAIN (Blood of Jesus/Holy Spirit) opened for SINS and for UNCLEANNESS !! Amen !!

And the false prophets (Rabbis) will be heard from no more, if they try to lie on Jesus, even their own parents will come against them (V.3) But most will be ASHAMED of his former Vision (belief against Jesus) and he will say, I am no prophet, I am a FARMER !! }}

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (Revelation 16)

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Earthquake in Rev. 16)

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

{Israel Flees to the Wilderness and Jesus shows up to defeat the Anti-Christ}

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

{{ So in essence, Zechariah 14 is The Day of the Lord, and his coming to defeat the Anti-Christ, Israel flees to the Wilderness, God protects them 1260 Days (Revelation 12) the Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives, there is a Great Earthquake and Jesus then defeats the Nations that have gathered against Israel. It there for all to see in scriptures. No where does any verse imply Israel serves this Anti-Christ. }}

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. {This is the Nations who God mentions in Zechariah that he GATHERS AGAINST ISRAEL, This is BABYLON !! TO GOD. }

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. {There is no Rev. 17 or 18}

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. {Zechariah 14 Earthquake}

19 And the great city was divided into three parts,(Jerusalem) and the cities of the nations fell: (Babylon) and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

{{ God sees the cities/Nations that come against Israel as BABYLON, He says so right here !! There is no MYSTERY !! These Nations gather against Israel, as enticed by Demonic Forces/Spirits and Jesus lands on the Mt of Olives and DESTROYS THEM. Israel has LONG SINCE REPENTED of their Sins and Rejection of God/Jesus, this is why God protects them at the HALF WAY POINT !!! 1260 Days in the Wilderness, because they REPENTED, that was why God sent the TWO-WITNESSES, it all fits, we have to quit inventing hypothesis about what might happen, WE HAVE SCRIPTURES TO FOLLOW !! Its right here in the bible. WHY WOULD GOD PROTECT ISRAEL for 1260 days in the Wilderness if Israel had not repented of her sins ? WHY !! Please, someone explain that logic. God decreed a decree against them, a Decree of punishment, which would bring Israel to repentance, but for some illogical reason God is "GOING TO PROTECT AN UNREPENTANT ISRAEL ? Makes no sense, Which means the facts are, ISRAEL DOES REPENT before the 1260 Day period in which they are protected by God, thus it means the repent before the Abomination of Desolation, which means they NEVER ACCEPT ANY MESSIAH SAVE JESUS !!

Elijah is sent to turn Israel back unto God via preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Since the Two-Witnesses preach for 1260 Days, and they die at the SECOND WOE, we understand their 1260 Days have to begin a Month or two before the Abomination of Desolation, because after the AoD happens the Anti-Christ has 42 Months (1260 days) to rule over the Saints/Jerusalem, so we know the Two-Witnesses must show up before the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem because both have the exact same time frame, and the A.C. is still on earth awhile after the Two-Witnesses die and ascend to heaven. }}

The facts are this, Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation.

The 70 Week Decree by Daniel was designed to get Israel to repent, why would God protect and favor Israel before they REPENTED ? Do we reward our children again before they learn their lessons and say I wont do it again ? Of course not. God IS NOT Going to protect Israel in the Wilderness before they repent. Thus Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah, then the Anti-Christ tries to destroy them, but God protects them.

ISRAEL NEVER ACCEPTS THE ANTI-CHRIST AS THEIR MESSIAH !!

 

[Revealing Times]

If you read closely, you will find that there are 6 separate timelines going on here, from Rev. 11 on to the end of the week:

I just proved that all of Revelation was overlapping, semantics wont cut it.

WRONG! the Great Harlot being Judged has nothing to do with the events of chapters 6 & 7!

Which means you don't fully grasp what the Harlot is in Rev. 17 is. It is ALL FALSE RELIGION, and the Anti-Christ demands to be the ONLY GOD at the HALF-WAY point so he sets about destroying ALL RELIGIONS (Harlot). He starts this in the Seals in chapter 6 and 7. The Harlot and Babylon are two different entities all together. The Kings HATE TE HARLOT (Rev 17:16) but CRY and LAMENT the destruction of Babylon in Rev. 18 !! MY THREAD ON THIS BELOW:
Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained

Babylon is the Nations that come against Israel. Rev. 16 tells us this. I show this in the post ABOVE......#277.

Sorry, but this chapter is still talking about the destruction of Jerusalem as “Mystery Babylon the Great.”

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. {There is no Rev. 17 or 18}

First we see the marriage and marriage supper taking place in heaven. THEN the saints return with Jesus.

We are in HEAVEN, while the Anti-Christ and his minions are on Earth. How did we get there ? In a DREAM ? No in a Rapture of the Church.

Daniel

From the Rapture to the Second coming is SEVEN YEARS....That is why there are two 3 1/2 year periods. The Abomination of Desolation splits the 7 year period. Revelation 19 is the Marriage of the Church, and the ride and the Bridegroom always stay in the Bridal Chamber for SEVEN DAYS (YEARS).

 

[Revealing Times]

Cute, but that in no way backs your point. Nothing in the context says Apostasia means what you claim. It is overwhelmingly translated falling away or something that means the same thing as Strong’s definition, even your favorite Amplified spells it out for you and you still try to change it to a departure from the planet, claiming context. Context in this case does not side with you. Paul said plainly in 1 Timothy 4:1 that some will depart from the faith.


I’ve debating with you long enough to know I am not going to change your mind on anything but when you ignore the tough questions you either can’t or won’t answer that tells the readers on this forum all they need to know about your position. Questions in post # 231 please.

OVERWHELMINGLY ? Only if you want to start biblical history with the KJV, I don't the Latin Vulgate for 1000 years had departure, the First Seven English translations had DEPARTURE. The Subject is the Rapture or GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO THE LORD......So why do we get all nonsensical and say its about FAITH ? Traditions of men.

Ahhhhhhhh it never mentions FAITH but we are going to FORCE IT anyway because that's what the KJV implied because of course King James wanted to take a POT SHOT at the Papacy, and we know how much they loved (joke...really hated) each other back in the day.

 

[BABerean2]

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

Mar 9:11　 And they asked Him, saying, "Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"　
Mar 9:12　 Then He answered and told them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and restores all things. And how is it written concerning the Son of Man, that He must suffer many things and be treated with contempt?　
Mar 9:13　 But I say to you that Elijah has also come, and they did to him whatever they wished, as it is written of him."
　

Jesus said John the Baptist was a fulfillment of the verse from Malachi.

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