What is your end times view on the rapture?

[iamlamad]

Lamad said:

OK, so I left out the word first.

In verse three Paul tells us that something must happen FIRST and then the man of sin is revealed. That something is the apostasia.

New American Standard Bible

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

“It” in this sentence cannot refer to the apostasy, “it” refers to something previous like maybe verse 1 & 2. I am not an English professor but it appears you are not either. You should concern yourself with the “it will not come” portion of the verse.


Lamads enhanced version:

New American Standard Bible

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it (apostasy, gathering) will not come unless the apostasy (gathering) comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

You misquoted me!
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [the Day] will not come unless the apostasy [the restrainer taken out of the way] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

This is the way I wrote it. I did not do this verse ANY misjustice. Of course "it" refers back to "THE DAY" of the previous verse. We agree there. Why then did you murder the verse as you did?

Can we agree now?

Why do I feel like I am being led into a maze of confusion with no way out?

You always find a way out!

I believe the more accurate way of rendering this would be to say that both the apostasy and the man of sin being revealed will come first . First referring back to the coming and gathering which will happen after first the apostasy and man of sin is revealed. Did I make that clear so no we cannot agree yet.

Except that is not the way Paul wrote it, so it is NOT "more accurate." Perhaps it is easier to understand? I even doubt that.

As he wrote it, the SIGN of "the day" is the man of sin being revealed. He is telling them how they can know for SURE when "the day" comes: has the man of sin been revealed? If it has, you can KNOW "the Day" has come and you are in it.

But there is one caveat: before the sign of the man of sin revealed, something else must come first. (only one thing here comes "first.") The apostasia must happen before the sign can happen.

Could this be equated as two signs before one can recognize "THE DAY" has come? I will give you that much. Perhaps it could: just not the way he wrote it. It seems Paul did not equate the apostasia as a sign of "the day." It seems positive that Paul KNEW the man if sin being revealed would come after the start of "THE DAY." Therefore he chose it as the sign "the day" had started.

Does "first" refer back to His coming and the gathering as you suggest? ONLY if you equate "THE DAY" with the rapture. If indeed Paul wrote "the day of Christ," would that be a possible meaning. If Paul really wrote "the Day of the Lord," it would not be possible. So we are back to what the original letter said - which we just don't know.

Make no mistake, the apostasia MUST COME FIRST. Then, AFTER the apostasia, the man of sin is revealed.

Agree or not?

No, not much agreement here , that is how you choose to see it, the apostasia could start first and continue during and after the man of sin is revealed. We are simply not given those details. I assure you both the apostasia and the man of sin will be revealed FIRST before the coming of the Lord in which He will gather. Not even gonna ask if you agree.

Is that a cause and effect relationship?

No we disagree on that point.

you are not very agreeable! But yet, that is EXACTLY how Paul wrote it (apostasia first - then the revealing)! If you cannot agree on that, we might as well quit!

Since you see apostasia as a falling away, yes, that could continue on. If it is referring to the departing of the church, that is one instant and significant departure and is over in a second.

You will note that Paul did not say the apostasia would BEGIN first, but that it would take place first.

Most certainly it is by verses 6-8. You wish for verse 3 to stand alone,

It does stand alone.

ANY verse must be left in its before and after context if we are to understand it properly! I don't see how we will ever agree on much here if you wish to find the meaning of one verse out of its context!

but it MUST BE left in its context.

The context of 3 belongs with verse 1 &2 because those 2 things will happen first before the coming and gathering. This is a good place for you to answer one of those 9 questions.

No, not until we can get to some small agreement here first!

How do you make a feminine noun “apostasia” in verse 3 the same as a he in verse 7?

Simple: the church is femine (the Bride of Christ) while the holy Spirit is masculine. Both are involved in the departure, but only HE has the power to restrain, working through the church. (He has no authority to work on His own because this world belongs to the devil at present.)

Now let's write it again and include some of the context:

Lamad's enhanced version:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [the Day] will not come unless the apostasy [the restrainer taken out of the way] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Will you let me get away with rewriting scripture like that?

Of course. Many people have tried to translate before us.

 

[BABerean2]

Some time ago I heard Carl Gallups point this out and I put it on a shelf. It may be time to bring it down and dust off that shelf; this makes a lot of sense. I am sure you realize pretib will fight this tooth and nail. Do you see this as just one more evidence the resurrection is described in Revelation 11?

Yes Sir, Brother.

We have to realize that the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols. We automatically interpret "lamb" as Christ and "dragon" as Satan, without thinking about it.

When I first became a member of this forum there was a man here who called himself "Old Jack". He had rejected a great deal of what he had believed previously and helped me understand that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

If we let Revelation 1:20 and Romans 11 be our guide to the two witnesses, it makes perfect sense. We also find the resurrection of the dead and the rapture and the last trumpet all in chapter 11.

Most people skip over "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, because it does not fit their end-time doctrine. We cannot ignore any of the text just because it does not fit our understanding. That text is there for a reason. It is revealed in John 5:27-30. There we have the bodily resurrection bracketed by two verses about Christ being the judge. John recorded both books.

The beginning of Revelation 12 is a review of Church history including the birth and death of Christ, who is the man-child who will rule with a rod of iron based on the 2nd Psalm. The potter destroys the flawed pots with the iron rod. He does not correct them as some teach.


Below we find many of the same characters. This means these two passages are part of the same event.

Rev_6:15　 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev_19:18　 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Keep up the good work, Brother.
.

 

[BABerean2]

Now if you think Jesus and Malichi meant 'The Church and the Jews' That makes no sense at all and means that you think Jesus and Malichi were mistaken.

As already pointed out.

Mat 17:11　 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.　
Mat 17:12　 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands."　
Mat 17:13　 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.　


Matthew made it plain that John the Baptist was the one Christ was talking about.

Jesus was not mistaken. He interpreted Malachi for us.

The Jews and the Church cannot be separated, since almost all of the first members of the New Covenant Church were Israelites, as found in Acts 2:36.

The two witnesses are people, because we are people.

Jerusalem in this passage is seen spiritually as Sodom and Egypt.
This is a symbol of the world.
All of the disciples, but John, were killed in this manner.
James, the half brother of Jesus, was murdered in Jerusalem.

Act_1:8　 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

.

 

[Revealing Times]

Mar 9:11　 And they asked Him, saying, "Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"　
Mar 9:12　 Then He answered and told them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and restores all things. And how is it written concerning the Son of Man, that He must suffer many things and be treated with contempt?　
Mar 9:13　 But I say to you that Elijah has also come, and they did to him whatever they wished, as it is written of him."
　

Jesus said John the Baptist was a fulfillment of the verse from Malachi.

Do you understand what the Day of the Lord is ? We understand Elijah was taken up. We understand John the Baptist and the Transfiguration, now that we have that settled, The Day of the Lord os GODS WRATH at the End Time !!!

All of the scriptures I posted prove this fact.

 

[Postvieww]

You misquoted me!
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [the Day] will not come unless the apostasy [the restrainer taken out of the way] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

This is the way I wrote it. I did not do this verse ANY misjustice. Of course "it" refers back to "THE DAY" of the previous verse. We agree there. Why then did you murder the verse as you did?


You always find a way out!



Except that is not the way Paul wrote it, so it is NOT "more accurate." Perhaps it is easier to understand? I even doubt that.

As he wrote it, the SIGN of "the day" is the man of sin being revealed. He is telling them how they can know for SURE when "the day" comes: has the man of sin been revealed? If it has, you can KNOW "the Day" has come and you are in it.

But there is one caveat: before the sign of the man of sin revealed, something else must come first. (only one thing here comes "first.") The apostasia must happen before the sign can happen.

Could this be equated as two signs before one can recognize "THE DAY" has come? I will give you that much. Perhaps it could: just not the way he wrote it. It seems Paul did not equate the apostasia as a sign of "the day." It seems positive that Paul KNEW the man if sin being revealed would come after the start of "THE DAY." Therefore he chose it as the sign "the day" had started.

Does "first" refer back to His coming and the gathering as you suggest? ONLY if you equate "THE DAY" with the rapture. If indeed Paul wrote "the day of Christ," would that be a possible meaning. If Paul really wrote "the Day of the Lord," it would not be possible. So we are back to what the original letter said - which we just don't know.



you are not very agreeable! But yet, that is EXACTLY how Paul wrote it (apostasia first - then the revealing)! If you cannot agree on that, we might as well quit!

Since you see apostasia as a falling away, yes, that could continue on. If it is referring to the departing of the church, that is one instant and significant departure and is over in a second.

You will note that Paul did not say the apostasia would BEGIN first, but that it would take place first.


ANY verse must be left in its before and after context if we are to understand it properly! I don't see how we will ever agree on much here if you wish to find the meaning of one verse out of its context!

No, not until we can get to some small agreement here first!



Simple: the church is femine (the Bride of Christ) while the holy Spirit is masculine. Both are involved in the departure, but only HE has the power to restrain, working through the church. (He has no authority to work on His own because this world belongs to the devil at present.)

Of course. Many people have tried to translate before us.

Lamad said:

You misquoted me!

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [the Day] will not come unless the apostasy [the restrainer taken out of the way] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Your brackets and comments above were not in the original, post # 295.

This is the way I wrote it. I did not do this verse ANY misjustice. Of course "it" refers back to "THE DAY" of the previous verse. We agree there. Why then did you murder the verse as you did?

It was not my intent to misquote you; I see how you could think that. It was my thinking the parenthesis would show I added those words. I should have been more clear. You have my apology for the misunderstanding.



I guess the first order of business is solving the “day of Christ “issue. Until we find some agreement there we cannot agree on anything else in this passage.


I’ll try one more time you have ignored previous attempts.


In which of the following passages can we say from the text “the day” is a period of time such as a 7 year tribulation? This really is at the heart of our disagreement. If you refuse to respond to this our continued debate is meaningless.

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


2 Corinthians 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.


1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.


Philippians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.


2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

[Postvieww]

Preterists have the correct view on end times.

/thread

Everyone that posts here believe they have the correct view!

 

[BABerean2]

Do you understand what the Day of the Lord is ?

2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.　
2Pe 3:11　 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,　
2Pe 3:12　 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?　
2Pe 3:13　 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.　

I prefer to let Peter interpret it for me in the passage above.


The timing of the resurrection/ gathering event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 is revealed at the beginning of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, on the Day of the Lord.

1Th 5:1　 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.　(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)

Below we find "the day of the Lord".

1Th 5:2　 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.　

The following verse proves the connection between the two chapters.

1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
　

We also find Christ coming "as a thief" in the passage below.

Rev 16:15　 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."　
Rev 16:16　 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.　

.

 

[Revealing Times]

The basis of my statement was from every English translation listed on the Bible Gateway site and that is a lot of them. It is obvious I have not checked every translation ever published but I did check all of those mentioned here and it is overwhelming.

Even when considering the ones that do use departure how many point out a departure to heaven, or is that just assumed?

I understand, but we could list 500 and if the one they sourced came after the Seven others, that only means 499 played follow the leader who changed the word.

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

 

[dfw69]

There will be a Temple, but you will have to inform me where scriptures say only the Messiah can build a Temple. I don't think this is the case.

Who do you believe will build Ezekiel 40 (millennial) temple? Only Jesus can when he returns

Jesus said to the Jews their temple is left desolate and that they will not see him again until they receive him Matthew 23:38-39

then the newly built temple that Jesus oversees built will not be a desolation for Jesus will sit in the throne room to judge all nations as king of the world

Any attempt to rebuild a temple will still be a desolation and we know a temple will be rebuilt in the future for the man of sin to sit in. So who will build this future temple that the man of sin will set up an idol of himself?

The Jews await another messiah (not Jesus) who will fulfill Ezekiel 40 to build the temple
When the man comes whom Jesus prophecied that the Jews recieve, he who "comes in his own name", then will Jesus prophecy be fulfilled and the temple will be rebuilt whom the man of sin will eventually come to sit upon

Again, nowhere does Scripture say the Anti-Christ is received by Israel as their Messiah, later I will show you that Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah before the Abomination of Desolation happens, and why. The Anti-Christ means someone that is OPPOSED to Jesus Christ, it doesn't mean he is the Messiah..........Anti...........Messiah, since Christ is Greek for Messiah. He opposes the Messiah.

No where in scripture says that Hitler would rise to power and persecute Jews but it took place... please try to have an open mind ... you don't have to agree with me

Yes I agree anti-messiah is one who opposes Jesus as messiah...

When the Jews find a messiah they will reject Jesus because they will believe the promised messiah has come... thus becoming anti-Jesus

this messiah who they will receive will not be the final anti-messiah whom scripture speaks so much about ... the messiah they will receive will form a dynasty. The prophecy will seem to be fulfilled of the son of David restored to the throne ...understand?

It is much later that the final antichrist will come to sit on the throne of the temple and set up a golem and the Jews will reject him before the abominable of desolation takes place

I again didn't call any names specifically per se, I USED AN ILLUSTRATION.............It might have been him, and others, or others, the point being, your pegging of this as having to be an END TIME EVENT, is just not factual. As a matter of fact because of scriptures, it can't be an END TIME EVENT. I don't care who it was, that was just an illustrated point.

I disagree with you because you assume the prophecy has been fulfilled...but it's ok if you disagree... no worries...

I can show you where the Jews accept their Messiah Jesus before the Abomination of Desolation happens.




Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

{{ Elijah is one of the Two-Witnesses, the Day of the Lord is a period of 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath. God is going to send Elijah to turn Israel back unto the Israel it was when they served God. }}

I agree .. I believe Enoch and Elijah will come to restore Israel and there will be 144000 sealed to witness

Zechariah 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

{{ God turns his FACE BACK UNTO Israel, where heretofore for 2500 years only Gods back has been shown to Israel, so WHY DID GOD CHANGE ? Because Israel accepted the one the PIERCED as their Messiah, OF COURSE, and they mourned the fact that they had rejected and killed their own Messiah. But when does this happen ? Well Malachi says it happens before the Day of the Lord, we have some other clues in Zechariah 14 which we will look at later, now own to Zechariah 13.}}

Again I agree God turns his face toward Israel and will pour out his spirit and their sons and daughters will prophesy and be a witness for Jesus

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: 5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

{{ This is God saying, IN THAT DAY....Well what day ? The Day Israel Repents and accepts Jesus as their Messiah, IN THAT DAY.....There will be a FOUNTAIN (Blood of Jesus/Holy Spirit) opened for SINS and for UNCLEANNESS !! Amen !!

Amen

And the false prophets (Rabbis) will be heard from no more, if they try to lie on Jesus, even their own parents will come against them (V.3) But most will be ASHAMED of his former Vision (belief against Jesus) and he will say, I am no prophet, I am a FARMER !! }}

Agree

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (Revelation 16)

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Earthquake in Rev. 16)

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

{Israel Flees to the Wilderness and Jesus shows up to defeat the Anti-Christ}

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

{{ So in essence, Zechariah 14 is The Day of the Lord, and his coming to defeat the Anti-Christ, Israel flees to the Wilderness, God protects them 1260 Days (Revelation 12) the Jesus sets foot on the Mt of Olives, there is a Great Earthquake and Jesus then defeats the Nations that have gathered against Israel. It there for all to see in scriptures. No where does any verse imply Israel serves this Anti-Christ. }}

Here is where you misunderstood me... this anti-Christ you are referring to above is not the antichrist I am referring to... the one who "comes in his own name" to build a dynasty comes say 500 years before this final antichrist you are referring to comes, understand?

Here is an example of a Timeline:

1)Rapture 2030ad
2)Falling away towards the Jewish messiah (the one who comes in his own name that the Jews have received)
3)This False messianic age last for say 500 years (10 kingdoms have form)
4)Man of sin comes (final 7 years of the false messianic age which started say 500 years earlier)

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. {This is the Nations who God mentions in Zechariah that he GATHERS AGAINST ISRAEL, This is BABYLON !! TO GOD. }

I disagree with you here ... Babylon is a city that reigns over the 10 kings of the earth

Babylon will be rebuilt Zechariah 5 in the land of shinar a house will be built. When god destroys the cities of the nations who come against Israel, god will also remember Babylons abominations and destroy her as well like he did Sodom and Gomorrah

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. {There is no Rev. 17 or 18}

There is a warning for adding or taking away from the book of revelation ... I have to disagree with you here

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. {Zechariah 14 Earthquake}

19 And the great city was divided into three parts,(Jerusalem) and the cities of the nations fell: (Babylon) and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

{{ God sees the cities/Nations that come against Israel as BABYLON, He says so right here !! There is no MYSTERY !! These Nations gather against Israel, as enticed by Demonic Forces/Spirits and Jesus lands on the Mt of Olives and DESTROYS THEM. Israel has LONG SINCE REPENTED of their Sins and Rejection of God/Jesus, this is why God protects them at the HALF WAY POINT !!! 1260 Days in the Wilderness, because they REPENTED, that was why God sent the TWO-WITNESSES, it all fits, we have to quit inventing hypothesis about what might happen, WE HAVE SCRIPTURES TO FOLLOW !! Its right here in the bible. WHY WOULD GOD PROTECT ISRAEL for 1260 days in the Wilderness if Israel had not repented of her sins ? WHY !! Please, someone explain that logic. God decreed a decree against them, a Decree of punishment, which would bring Israel to repentance, but for some illogical reason God is "GOING TO PROTECT AN UNREPENTANT ISRAEL ? Makes no sense, Which means the facts are, ISRAEL DOES REPENT before the 1260 Day period in which they are protected by God, thus it means the repent before the Abomination of Desolation, which means they NEVER ACCEPT ANY MESSIAH SAVE JESUS !!

Many Jews await a messiah and when one comes who fits the bill they will receive him and he will reign for a season until god decides to send the Assyrian against them who will become the man of sin and sit in the temple and yes god will here their cries for whoever calls upon the name of the lord shall be saved

Elijah is sent to turn Israel back unto God via preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Since the Two-Witnesses preach for 1260 Days, and they die at the SECOND WOE, we understand their 1260 Days have to begin a Month or two before the Abomination of Desolation, because after the AoD happens the Anti-Christ has 42 Months (1260 days) to rule over the Saints/Jerusalem, so we know the Two-Witnesses must show up before the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem because both have the exact same time frame, and the A.C. is still on earth awhile after the Two-Witnesses die and ascend to heaven. }}

The facts are this, Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation.

The 70 Week Decree by Daniel was designed to get Israel to repent, why would God protect and favor Israel before they REPENTED ? Do we reward our children again before they learn their lessons and say I wont do it again ? Of course not. God IS NOT Going to protect Israel in the Wilderness before they repent. Thus Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah, then the Anti-Christ tries to destroy them, but God protects them.

ISRAEL NEVER ACCEPTS THE ANTI-CHRIST AS THEIR MESSIAH !!

I would say Israel never accepts the " final" antichrist as their messiah..... but what you fail to see my brother is they will accept another man "who comes in his own name" many many years before the final antichrist even shows up

God bless you and thank you for your replies

 

[BABerean2]

Who do you believe will build Ezekiel 40 (millennial) temple? Only Jesus can when he returns

Jesus said to the Jews their temple is left desolate and that they will not see him again until they receive him Matthew 23:38-39

then the newly built temple that Jesus oversees built will not be a desolation for Jesus will sit in the throne room to judge all nations as king of the world

Stephen said that God does not now dwell in temples made with hands.

Christ is now the temple of God found in the New Testament.

We are the temples who contain the Holy Spirit sent down from God.

Any man who sits in the temple of God and claims to be God in the New Testament, would have to be a member of the Church.
Who claims to speak for God on earth?

 

[Revealing Times]

Who do you believe will build Ezekiel 40 (millennial) temple? Only Jesus can when he returns

The Jewish peoples......Not Jesus who is in Heaven until we the Church return with him. Again, getting the Rapture wrong throws you off in everything.

Jesus said to the Jews their temple is left desolate and that they will not see him again until they receive him Matthew 23:38-39

Do you grasp in full what this means ? MOST DON'T....They argue against what this very passage says, and don't even realize it.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jesus told the Jewish people he would have brought them back unto their God, his Father, if they would have just accepted him. But YOUR HOUSE (Meaning the nation of Israel/FAMILY) is left unto you DESOLATE or a waste/in tatters. NOW COMES THEY KEY.........

Jesus tells them I will not see you again, UNTIL YOU CALL ME THE MESSIAH WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF GOD !!!

Jesus doesn't come and build the Temple and call Israel to repentance. Daniels 70 week decree says all those thing must happen before Israel's punishment is fulfilled, and one of those six requirements is REPENTING, which means they have to accept Jesus BEFORE HE RETURNS......And that is exactly what this verse says. Jesus says before you see me again, YOU WILL HAVE ACCEPTED ME AS YOUR MESSIAH !!

then the newly built temple that Jesus oversees built will not be a desolation for Jesus will sit in the throne room to judge all nations as king of the world

Any attempt to rebuild a temple will still be a desolation and we know a temple will be rebuilt in the future for the man of sin to sit in. So who will build this future temple that the man of sin will set up an idol of himself?

The Jews await another messiah (not Jesus) who will fulfill Ezekiel 40 to build the temple
When the man comes whom Jesus prophecied that the Jews recieve, he who "comes in his own name", then will Jesus prophecy be fulfilled and the temple will be rebuilt whom the man of sin will eventually come to sit upon

The Jews rebuild the Temple. There is no "KING/MESSIAH they accept, that just fabrication. They accept Jesus when Elijah comes and preachers to them. They build the Temple before they accept Jesus.

No where in scripture says that Hitler would rise to power and persecute Jews but it took place... please try to have an open mind ... you don't have to agree with me

Hitler caused Ezekiel prophecy of "DEAD BONES" to come to pass. Without Hitler, those Bones would not be alive again. Israel would not be a Nation now.

When the Jews find a messiah they will reject Jesus because they will believe the promised messiah has come... thus becoming anti-Jesus

this messiah who they will receive will not be the final anti-messiah whom scripture speaks so much about ... the messiah they will receive will form a dynasty. The prophecy will seem to be fulfilled of the son of David restored to the throne ...understand?

It is much later that the final antichrist will come to sit on the throne of the temple and set up a golem and the Jews will reject him before the abominable of desolation takes place

Many, many people are falling for this, it just not factual. Israel is not going to accept a FAKE ANTI-CHRIST.

I disagree with you because you assume the prophecy has been fulfilled...but it's ok if you disagree... no worries...

No, I understand by reading Scriptures that Israel never accepts a Messiah at the End Times, it just doesn't fit. NO WHERE does it describe this event anywhere. It describes just the opposite, God protects Israel for 1260 Days, the Two-Witnesses show up a month or two before the Anti-Christ........What do you think their MISSION WAS ? Priority number one was to turn Israel back to God. Daniels 70th week decree says Israel MUST REPENT before the Decree passes.

Because I know it CAN NOT be an End Time Event, I understand Jesus was speaking about at the end of the Roman occupation. Israel is far more secular than you realize today, most aren't very religious. They are not going to accept a Messiah. When the TROUBLE COMES, then they will need JESUS CHRIST....................The real Messiah.

Here is where you misunderstood me... this anti-Christ you are referring to above is not the antichrist I am referring to... the one who "comes in his own name" to build a dynasty comes say 500 years before this final antichrist you are referring to comes, understand?

Here is an example of a Timeline:

1)Rapture 2030ad
2)Falling away towards the Jewish messiah (the one who comes in his own name that the Jews have received)
3)This False messianic age last for say 500 years (10 kingdoms have form)
4)Man of sin comes (final 7 years of the false messianic age which started say 500 years earlier)

You see, I had a vision in 1986, I was running from some evil dudes, with two small kids, I hid behind a bush by a house. Then I heard this LOUD VOICE........."The Man of Sin is Here" and that was ALL I HEARD. So as a young Christian, God must have known that I would not understand what He had shown me, so He decided to show me something that would come to pass quickly, where I WOULD ALWAYS BELIEVE the First Vision. I was in this HUGE auditorium and there was maybe 10 people there. And Jimmy Swaggart was preaching (TH PLACE WAS EMPTY) Within a week or two, Jimmy Swaggart had fallen from Grace, God showed me He was taking away his audience !! BOOM, I then realized the other vision had a purpose, God wanted m to know the Ant-Christ (Man of Sin) was alive and in the world NOW !! That was 30 years ago.

So, to be honest. We do not have all of these years to wait, the Anti-Christ is in his mid 40's or early 50's.

I disagree with you here ... Babylon is a city that reigns over the 10 kings of the earth

Babylon will be rebuilt Zechariah 5 in the land of shinar a house will be built. When god destroys the cities of the nations who come against Israel, god will also remember Babylons abominations and destroy her as well like he did Sodom and Gomorrah

Scriptures show God calling it Babylon. My link I gave you to the thread about Babylon has MUCH DETAIL. There is no City, just like there is no REAL SEVEN HEADED BEAST........Its METAPHORIC !!

The Bible says Babylon will never be a great city again that is inhabited. Says that in a few places.

Those Nations ARE BABYLON....When they are defeated ITS OVER. There is no Rev. 17 or 18.

There is a warning for adding or taking away from the book of revelation ... I have to disagree with you here

This is Armageddon man, are you blind ? It says it eight there in the scriptures............IT IS DONE !!

Many Jews await a messiah and when one comes who fits the bill they will receive him and he will reign for a season until god decides to send the Assyrian against them who will become the man of sin and sit in the temple and yes god will here their cries for whoever calls upon the name of the lord shall be saved

This is getting redundant. Israel accepts Jesus before the Abomination.

I would say Israel never accepts the " final" antichrist as their messiah..... but what you fail to see my brother is they will accept another man "who comes in his own name" many many years before the final antichrist even shows up

God bless you and thank you for your replies

{ That was fulfilled years ago. Israel repents. And accepts Jesus.}

GOD BLESS

 

[dfw69]

Stephen said that God does not now dwell in temples made with hands.

Christ is now the temple of God found in the New Testament.

We are the temples who contain the Holy Spirit sent down from God.

Any man who sits in the temple of God and claims to be God in the New Testament, would have to be a member of the Church.
Who claims to speak for God on earth?

I understand you believe this way but it makes no sense to me to spiritualized so many scriptures when there are literal things to behold

Paul pointed to the temple of god in Jerusalem ..and Jesus pointed to Judea and fleeing to the mountains and the abomination of desolation points to the temple in Jerusalem... every thing points to Jerusalem ...Jesus points to false prophets and false messiahs that will come out of Jerusalem...not the church ...

 

[BABerean2]

Paul pointed to the temple of god in Jerusalem ..and Jesus pointed to Judea and fleeing to the mountains and the abomination of desolation points to the temple in Jerusalem... every thing points to Jerusalem ...Jesus points to false prophets and false messiahs that will come out of Jerusalem...not the church ...

And based on the following text, those events were referring to 70AD, instead of a future event.

The following, including the subtitles, comes from the NKJV.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　
Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　
Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　
Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　


The "times of the Gentiles" is fulfilled at the future Second Coming of Christ.

.

 

[dfw69]

The Jewish peoples......Not Jesus who is in Heaven until we the Church return with him. Again, getting the Rapture wrong throws you off in everything.

Yes the Jewish people under the supervision of Jesus when he returns ... Jesus returns for the Jews who will cry out for god to send them the promised messiah and he will send Jesus and they will believe him and Jesus will rule and sit in the temple in the name of the father and reign for 1000 years ... this millennium temple that will be built will not be a desolation but a blessing for all nations ... Jesus will fulfill messianic prophecies and that will include the building of Ezekiel temple

Do you grasp in full what this means ? MOST DON'T....They argue against what this very passage says, and don't even realize it.

I knew you would bring up this logic against the temple ...but you also know "house" can refer to the temple "the house of god" and Jesus was at the temple when he spoke these words conserning the house in desolation...after he spoke those words against the temple, he then leaves the temple and prophecies it's coming destruction Matthew 24:1

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jesus told the Jewish people he would have brought them back unto their God, his Father, if they would have just accepted him. But YOUR HOUSE (Meaning the nation of Israel/FAMILY) is left unto you DESOLATE or a waste/in tatters.

Well I would say he was referring to Jerusalem as well which would include the temple ... calling it by name points to the city where the messiah would one day have his headquarters being the throne of David ...

nonetheless the city of Jerusalem and the temple are in desolation as long as they continue to reject Jesus as the one God prophecied to have being his only begotten son

NOW COMES THEY KEY.........

Jesus tells them I will not see you again, UNTIL YOU CALL ME THE MESSIAH WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF GOD !!!

Jesus doesn't come and build the Temple and call Israel to repentance. Daniels 70 week decree says all those thing must happen before Israel's punishment is fulfilled, and one of those six requirements is REPENTING, which means they have to accept Jesus BEFORE HE RETURNS......And that is exactly what this verse says. Jesus says before you see me again, YOU WILL HAVE ACCEPTED ME AS YOUR MESSIAH !!

Yes they will repent and accept him

But then when he has returned he will build Ezekiel temple or supervise its construction

The Jews rebuild the Temple. There is no "KING/MESSIAH they accept, that just fabrication. They accept Jesus when Elijah comes and preachers to them. They build the Temple before they accept Jesus.

So your saying the temple the Jews will built is for Jesus to sit on and yet the man of sin will come to sit on this newly built temple and then Jesus will come to cleanse the temple and rule?

The Holy city will be divided into 3 parts yet the temple they have built for Jesus is not damaged? Do you realize the size of Ezekiel city and temple?

Hitler caused Ezekiel prophecy of "DEAD BONES" to come to pass. Without Hitler, those Bones would not be alive again. Israel would not be a Nation now.

I disagree with that spirituality thinking ... the dead bones prophecy is not some parable. It is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled... it represents a "literal" resurrection of Jewish people who will inhabited Jerusalem and Israel... they were not cut off from their inheritance ...god is going to literally raise an army of dead men (Israel) who will fight against Jesus enemies when Jesus returns

Many, many people are falling for this, it just not factual. Israel is not going to accept a FAKE ANTI-CHRIST.

Again I see your point and agree that they will not accept the man of sin because of the idol of himself set up in the temple. they will not bow down to an idol to worship another. God is not made of stone and because of this great tribulation comes for them yet god says a remnant will be saved who will cry out to him

But before this day eventually takes place, the Jews will have found a son of David to restore Jerusalem and the temple and greater Israel many years before

No, I understand by reading Scriptures that Israel never accepts a Messiah at the End Times, it just doesn't fit. NO WHERE does it describe this event anywhere. It describes just the opposite, God protects Israel for 1260 Days, the Two-Witnesses show up a month or two before the Anti-Christ........What do you think their MISSION WAS ? Priority number one was to turn Israel back to God. Daniels 70th week decree says Israel MUST REPENT before the Decree passes.

Because I know it CAN NOT be an End Time Event, I understand Jesus was speaking about at the end of the Roman occupation. Israel is far more secular than you realize today, most aren't very religious. They are not going to accept a Messiah. When the TROUBLE COMES, then they will need JESUS CHRIST....................The real Messiah.

What do you think Jesus was referring to when he said Matthew 24:23-26?

You see, I had a vision in 1986, I was running from some evil dudes, with two small kids, I hid behind a bush by a house. Then I heard this LOUD VOICE........."The Man of Sin is Here" and that was ALL I HEARD. So as a young Christian, God must have known that I would not understand what He had shown me, so He decided to show me something that would come to pass quickly, where I WOULD ALWAYS BELIEVE the First Vision. I was in this HUGE auditorium and there was maybe 10 people there. And Jimmy Swaggart was preaching (TH PLACE WAS EMPTY) Within a week or two, Jimmy Swaggart had fallen from Grace, God showed me He was taking away his audience !! BOOM, I then realized the other vision had a purpose, God wanted m to know the Ant-Christ (Man of Sin) was alive and in the world NOW !! That was 30 years ago.


So, to be honest. We do not have all of these years to wait, the Anti-Christ is in his mid 40's or early 50's.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you that the man of sin and Jesus comes soon within our lifetime... this kind of thinking may lead to a false messiah which Jesus predicts would come

Scriptures show God calling it Babylon. My link I gave you to the thread about Babylon has MUCH DETAIL. There is no City, just like there is no REAL SEVEN HEADED BEAST........Its METAPHORIC !!

The Bible says Babylon will never be a great city again that is inhabited. Says that in a few places.

Those Nations ARE BABYLON....When they are defeated ITS OVER. There is no Rev. 17 or 18.

Let's just agree to disagree here

This is Armageddon man, are you blind ? It says it eight there in the scriptures............IT IS DONE !!

Not cool to assume I'm blind just because I disagree with you

The wrath of god was completed in the pouring out of the 7th bowl

I'm not gonna throw out 17,18 because you say so ... if you wish to ignore scripture ..it's on you .. I choose not to

This is getting redundant. Israel accepts Jesus before the Abomination.

Agree

{ That was fulfilled years ago. Israel repents. And accepts Jesus.}

GOD BLESS

Peace and love

 

[dfw69]

And based on the following text, those events were referring to 70AD, instead of a future event.

The following, including the subtitles, comes from the NKJV.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　
Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　
Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　
Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　


The "times of the Gentiles" is fulfilled at the future Second Coming of Christ.

.

When was the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel set up ?... when did Israel flee to the mountains for 1260 days? When did the 2 witnesses appear? When did the man of sin sit in the temple and set up an idol of himself and institution of the mark of the beast and great persecution of Jews took place? When did the man of sin speak great things against god and claim to be god?

 

[Postvieww]

Why would Paul use the clear words “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ , and by our gathering together unto him” in 2 Thess. 2:1 and then resort to coded “apostasia” in verse 3 to refer to the same event? The fact is that line of reasoning makes no sense. Why would the Holy Spirit through Paul intentionally try to confuse the meaning of this passage to the point of needing linguist experts to try and decipher what was said. Where else in Paul’s writings is a similar tactic used within the space of 3 verses?



This entire argument is based on word definitions.

Falling away = departure from the faith, supported by 1 Tim. 4:1

or

Departure = removal to another place (heaven) not supported in scripture.



Day of Christ = the coming of the Lord and our gathering, supported by other uses in the NT of the same or similar phrases.

or

Day of Christ = extended time of wrath and tribulation, not supported by other NT examples

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad said:

You misquoted me!

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [the Day] will not come unless the apostasy [the restrainer taken out of the way] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Your brackets and comments above were not in the original, post # 295.

This is the way I wrote it. I did not do this verse ANY misjustice. Of course "it" refers back to "THE DAY" of the previous verse. We agree there. Why then did you murder the verse as you did?

It was not my intent to misquote you; I see how you could think that. It was my thinking the parenthesis would show I added those words. I should have been more clear. You have my apology for the misunderstanding.
Appology accepted: not a problem.


I guess the first order of business is solving the “day of Christ “issue. Until we find some agreement there we cannot agree on anything else in this passage.
I really don't think Paul wrote "day of Christ. " It does not fit the context as I understand "the day of Christ."

I’ll try one more time you have ignored previous attempts.


In which of the following passages can we say from the text “the day” is a period of time such as a 7 year tribulation? This really is at the heart of our disagreement. If you refuse to respond to this our continued debate is meaningless.

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This would seem to be the day of the rapture.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
This would seem to be the day of the rapture.

2 Corinthians 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.
This would seem to be the day of the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
This I believe refers back to all the Old Testament verses on "the day of the Lord. It is a day of darkness and wrath.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
This I believe refers back to all the Old Testament verses on "the day of the Lord. It is a day of darkness and wrath.

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This seems to refer to the day of the rapture.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
This seems to refer to the day of the rapture.
Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
This seems to refer to the day of the rapture.

Philippians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. This seems to refer to the day of the rapture.


2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

This seems to refer to the day of the rapture.

I cannot make these two days the same - no matter that Jesus is Lord! Paul is the only writer of the day of Christ, and he is the only one with the revelation of the rapture. It would seem that in Paul's mind, the "day of Christ" is only one day and it is the day we are caught up.

The big question: which makes more sense in the context of 2 thes. 2?

 

[iamlamad]

Everyone that posts here believe they have the correct view!

Ha ha! This I can agree with 100%!

 

[iamlamad]

I understand, but we could list 500 and if the one they sourced came after the Seven others, that only means 499 played follow the leader who changed the word.

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

Postvieww and I have also been discussing "the day of the Lord" versus "the day of Christ" in various versions, in 2 Thes. 2. I am convinced that Paul wrote "the day of the Lord." It seems to fit the context of the passage better, in my mind.

How do you see it?

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

 

[iamlamad]

When was the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel set up ?... when did Israel flee to the mountains for 1260 days? When did the 2 witnesses appear? When did the man of sin sit in the temple and set up an idol of himself and institution of the mark of the beast and great persecution of Jews took place? When did the man of sin speak great things against god and claim to be god?

ha ha! These are all "figments!" They are in his imagination!