What is your end times view on the rapture?

[dogs4thewin]

My view is it will happen in God's timing so may hope for pre- but should and must prepare for post.

 

[Postvieww]

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[AlasBabylon]

.

The word, "rapture", is confusing because different people have different definitions.
Therefore I never use the word, "rapture." I believe what the Bible teaches, the same
as Martin Luther taught... Jesus Christ returns for the second and last time, the dead
who are asleep in Christ are resurrected into immortal bodies and the living in Christ
are changed into immortal bodies.

There is no pre-"rapture" to avoid God's tribulation... because the last generation
is the lukewarm generation that needs tribulation the most. Per Hebrews 12:6,
the Lord chastens whom He loves and scourges every son whom He receives.

" Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent." Rev 3:19

.

 

[iamlamad]

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Good scripture!
"That day [the Day of the Lord] shall not come except there come a departing first [the rapture or catching away of the church] and then that man of sin be revealed...."

Does this fit the context? Certainly it does! Paul tells us in 6,7 & 8 and there is something holding back the antichrist, or hindering his being revealed. It is the CHURCH indwelt with the Holy Spirit. He - the Holy Spirit - is working through the church, restraining evil all over the globe. When the church is taken, suddenly the Holy Spirit has NO ONE LEFT to work with at the moment of departing. OF COURSE people will turn to God after that, but for a while, Satan will be free to get his man "revealed."

Then Paul tells us, this restrainer will be "taken out of the way."

Is not the church "taken out of the way" at the rapture? Of course it is! We go to heaven, and leave this world to the devil. He takes over through the Beast and sets up the image and mark.

So this verse (verse 3) is really telling us that the rapture must come first. And then - and ONLY then - can the man of sin be revealed. In other words, God is not going to allow him to be revealed until after we are gone.

For those that want to study the Greek, this "taken out of the way" could as well be translated "become out of the midst." Really it means the same thing: departed and moved out of the way.

Then if we look closely at the word in question: apostasia, we see it is a compound word, "apo" and "Stasia."

From "Apo" Strong's tells us:

1. of separation of a part from the whole
   1. where of a whole some part is taken

At the rapture, FOR SURE a part of the whole population will be "taken out of the way" or SEPARATED from the rest.

Stasis: Or Histemi
1. A standing [stationary] state of standing still
2. A resurrection.

If we put the first part (separation of a part from a whole) with these two, which makes the most sense?

Of course, a part of the whole taken or separated from the whole while they are left standing.

this gives us the idea that the rapture will be INSTANT; so sudden it seems that when it happens, all others not taken are still standing there, wondering what just happened!

This is a much better fit than a part of a whole suddenly removed or separated for a resurrection!

Therefore it seems the very best idea of what Paul was writing is that we are not to be deceived: "that day [the day of the Lord] CANNOT come until first there is a sudden separation - a part of the whole population suddenly removed from the while - while those left behind are just left standing - wondering what happened. This fits perfectly with verses 6-8 where something is restraining, but it is to be "taken out of the way" and THEN the man of sin revealed.

If we look at the first translations into English, we see that they used the world "departing" rather than a falling away.

 

[Postvieww]

Good scripture!
"That day [the Day of the Lord] shall not come except there come a departing first [the rapture or catching away of the church] and then that man of sin be revealed...."

Does this fit the context? Certainly it does! Paul tells us in 6,7 & 8 and there is something holding back the antichrist, or hindering his being revealed. It is the CHURCH indwelt with the Holy Spirit. He - the Holy Spirit - is working through the church, restraining evil all over the globe. When the church is taken, suddenly the Holy Spirit has NO ONE LEFT to work with at the moment of departing. OF COURSE people will turn to God after that, but for a while, Satan will be free to get his man "revealed."

Then Paul tells us, this restrainer will be "taken out of the way."

Is not the church "taken out of the way" at the rapture? Of course it is! We go to heaven, and leave this world to the devil. He takes over through the Beast and sets up the image and mark.

So this verse (verse 3) is really telling us that the rapture must come first. And then - and ONLY then - can the man of sin be revealed. In other words, God is not going to allow him to be revealed until after we are gone.

For those that want to study the Greek, this "taken out of the way" could as well be translated "become out of the midst." Really it means the same thing: departed and moved out of the way.

Then if we look closely at the word in question: apostasia, we see it is a compound word, "apo" and "Stasia."

From "Apo" Strong's tells us:

1. of separation of a part from the whole
   1. where of a whole some part is taken

At the rapture, FOR SURE a part of the whole population will be "taken out of the way" or SEPARATED from the rest.

Stasis: Or Histemi
1. A standing [stationary] state of standing still
2. A resurrection.

If we put the first part (separation of a part from a whole) with these two, which makes the most sense?

Of course, a part of the whole taken or separated from the whole while they are left standing.

this gives us the idea that the rapture will be INSTANT; so sudden it seems that when it happens, all others not taken are still standing there, wondering what just happened!

This is a much better fit than a part of a whole suddenly removed or separated for a resurrection!

Therefore it seems the very best idea of what Paul was writing is that we are not to be deceived: "that day [the day of the Lord] CANNOT come until first there is a sudden separation - a part of the whole population suddenly removed from the while - while those left behind are just left standing - wondering what happened. This fits perfectly with verses 6-8 where something is restraining, but it is to be "taken out of the way" and THEN the man of sin revealed.

If we look at the first translations into English, we see that they used the world "departing" rather than a falling away.

Hi Lamad,


It is a good scripture in which Paul plainly stated in 3 simple verses what he meant to say. Just look at how long a post it took you to explain what you think Paul meant to say. I’ll just stick with the text as written.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Psalm3704]

I understand how frustrating it can be to read things we disagree with and think are totally stupid, and how easy it is to type up a response in anger and click "Post". I've posted some angry posts as well, some of them directed at you, because as you know we see things very differently, but let's try to keep our cool.

Emotionally response isn't always triggered when two people disagree on a particular subject so much as when one accuses the other of something totally untrue.

It doesn't bother me when people disagree with me on something. It didn't bother me when you disagreed with me concerning soul sleep.

What finally made me react was you accusing me of your error. The same error I was trying to correct you of.

You said,

It seems that you are not aware that we are souls. A soul is a living creature.

On the contrary. It seems that you are not aware that we are souls. A soul is a living creature. Without life, we're just dust, but with the breath of God we've become living creatures. We've become souls.

That was your response after I had told you we are souls in a body and our soul never dies.

Do you not know the soul and the body are separated at death? When a person dies, the corpse is what sleeps and await resurrection. The individual's soul never dies. The soul doesn't sleep in the grave.​

Do you not know the soul and the body are separated at death? When a person dies, the corpse is what sleeps and await resurrection. The individual's soul never dies. The soul doesn't sleep in the grave. Do you know what a person's soul is and how it works in the spiritual realm? Seems like you're confusing the two as one.

So instead of admitting your own error, you tried to redirect the error at me.

I know your tricks LS. You like to point the finger at someone else and like to portrait yourself as the victim of an argument. We had a similar argument a month ago. You falsely accused me of posting something I did not. I told you to go back and check your error. You did so and realize it was a mistake on your end. And instead of admitting your mistake misquoting another person's post, you put the blame on that other guy, who had nothing to do with us and not even involved in our argument.

You than followed up writing a post to him accusing him as the culprit that started the argument between us while you in error misunderstood what you read. The evidences are written on this forum and so is he.

I already knew what you were about to do. Redirect your finger at someone else ( this time, me) for your own mistake again. I merely stopped you on your track poking fun at you before you could get to 1st base with this.

So let's see you keep your cool after me being candid about what had happened.

And let me also say this to you what you told the other guy in your post after realizing your mistake; "It was your fault all this started, why don't you man up to it."

but let's try to keep our cool.

Sure. I got no hard feelings. I'm cool. How about you? Are we cool?












.

 

[LastSeven]

What finally made me react was you accusing me of your error. The same error I was trying to correct you of.

You said,

It seems that you are not aware that we are souls. A soul is a living creature.
​

That was your response after I had told you we are souls in a body and our soul never dies.

Do you not know the soul and the body are separated at death? When a person dies, the corpse is what sleeps and await resurrection. The individual's soul never dies. The soul doesn't sleep in the grave.​

I'm not sure if you think we said the same thing, but we didn't. I believe we become souls when our bodies are combined with the breath of life (Genesis 2:7). In other words the combining of the body and the breath of life, makes a soul. You still seem to be saying that the the soul can separate from the body. I'm saying that when life leaves the body (and goes back to God who gave it), there is no longer a soul.

​

So instead of admitting your own error, you tried to redirect the error at me.

I don't believe I made an error. I think you misunderstood me.

And instead of admitting your mistake misquoting another person's post, you put the blame on that other guy, who had nothing to do with us and not even involved in our argument.

But I did admit my mistake, but I was also right to blame him as his poor quoting skills made it look like your quote. So my mistake was due to his mistake.

And let me also say this to you what you told the other guy in your post after realizing your mistake; "It was your fault all this started, why don't you man up to it."

And he never did man up.

Sure. I got no hard feelings. I'm cool. How about you? Are we cool?

Ya, we're cool. Just still not understanding each other I think.

 

[BABerean2]

Is not the church "taken out of the way" at the rapture? Of course it is! We go to heaven, and leave this world to the devil. He takes over through the Beast and sets up the image and mark.

So this verse (verse 3) is really telling us that the rapture must come first. And then - and ONLY then - can the man of sin be revealed. In other words, God is not going to allow him to be revealed until after we are gone.

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
　
Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

...................................................

Rev 14:4　 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.　

Rom 16:5　 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.　

2Co_11:2　 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Paul uses the same language to describe Christians as is used by John to describe the 144,000.

.

 

[AlasBabylon]

@BABerean2

Revelation 17:1-5 and Revelation 18:1-4 refer to Babylon as a harlot who makes the nations drunk with her immoralities. I think there is a symbolic relationship between Christ's 144,000 "virgin" first fruits and God's people who are told to come out of Babylon and not partake of her abominable immoralities.

.

 

[iamlamad]

Emotionally response isn't always triggered when two people disagree on a particular subject so much as when one accuses the other of something totally untrue.

It doesn't bother me when people disagree with me on something. It didn't bother me when you disagreed with me concerning soul sleep.

What finally made me react was you accusing me of your error. The same error I was trying to correct you of.

You said,

It seems that you are not aware that we are souls. A soul is a living creature.

​

That was your response after I had told you we are souls in a body and our soul never dies.

Do you not know the soul and the body are separated at death? When a person dies, the corpse is what sleeps and await resurrection. The individual's soul never dies. The soul doesn't sleep in the grave.​

​

So instead of admitting your own error, you tried to redirect the error at me.

I know your tricks LS. You like to point the finger at someone else and like to portrait yourself as the victim of an argument. We had a similar argument a month ago. You falsely accused me of posting something I did not. I told you to go back and check your error. You did so and realize it was a mistake on your end. And instead of admitting your mistake misquoting another person's post, you put the blame on that other guy, who had nothing to do with us and not even involved in our argument.

You than followed up writing a post to him accusing him as the culprit that started the argument between us while you in error misunderstood what you read. The evidences are written on this forum and so is he.

I already knew what you were about to do. Redirect your finger at someone else ( this time, me) for your own mistake again. I merely stopped you on your track poking fun at you before you could get to 1st base with this.

So let's see you keep your cool after me being candid about what had happened.

And let me also say this to you what you told the other guy in your post after realizing your mistake; "It was your fault all this started, why don't you man up to it."



Sure. I got no hard feelings. I'm cool. How about you? Are we cool?
.

Soul sleep is absolutely false doctrine.
Soul is not spirit.
Soul is not body.

In the Old Testament soul was referring to the entire person.
In the New Testament, I think soul is the area of intellect, will, emotions and affections: this part of a human is different from any other. NO two brains get wired the same way. No two people will have the same thoughts and emotions. Paul tells us that the spirit and soul are tied very tightly together, and can be separated ONLY by the word of God.

It is our spirit man that gives us life. It is our soulish area that makes each of us individuals.

 

[iamlamad]

Hi Lamad,


It is a good scripture in which Paul plainly stated in 3 simple verses what he meant to say. Just look at how long a post it took you to explain what you think Paul meant to say. I’ll just stick with the text as written.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

While you are looking for a "falling away" first, I will be departing. You will see the man of sin revealed; those caught up in the rapture will not. We will not have long to wait. I believe God is going to wrap up this age very quickly now.
Just remember, the "text" was written in Greek. It is the apostasia that will come first - a departing or departure. Apo: from the whole, a part of the whole is taken - as all are stationary. It will happen in a split second.

 

[AlasBabylon]

Soul sleep is absolutely false doctrine.

The Bible teaches and both Luther and Tyndale believed the dead sleep
and are unconscious of events and the passing of time until the resurrection.

.

 

[BABerean2]

I believe God is going to wrap up this age very quickly now.

The New Covenant confirmed by the Blood of Christ at Calvary does not come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ, based on Hebrews 13:20. It is "everlasting". How long is everlasting?

Mat 26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.　

Heb 13:20　 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,　

We have not come to the Sinai covenant.

Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　
Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　
Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　
Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")
　
We have come to the New Covenant of Mount Zion, instead.

Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(Notice the word "Church" in this verse.)

Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
(A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant of Christ.)


God is not going back to the now "obsolete" Sinai Covenant. It is finished. God ripped the temple veil in half on the day of Calvary and no man is going to repair it.

　
Heb 8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.　

The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Salvation now comes only to those grafted into the tree, through faith in Christ. There is no Plan B.

.

 

[Psalm3704]

I don't believe I made an error. I think you misunderstood me.

This was what you wrote. This is not correct.

but that doesn't change the fact that people do not become spirits immediately upon death. That doesn't happen until the resurrection. Until then, we actually die and go back to the dust of the earth, just as God told Adam.​

but that doesn't change the fact that people do not become spirits immediately upon death. That doesn't happen until the resurrection. Until then, we actually die and go back to the dust of the earth, just as God told Adam.

​

But I did admit my mistake, but I was also right to blame him as his poor quoting skills made it look like your quote. So my mistake was due to his mistake.

You're doing it again. Pointing a finger at someone else.

You did admit your mistake but than later turned around and falsely accused him in a new post.

There's nothing wrong with making mistakes, everyone does it daily and make an unintentional error. I make tons of them. But the ones who are wrong are those who tries to cover it up and deny their mistake. Than they end up making a deliberate mistake. How many times have you heard people say two wrongs don't make a right? People are more impressed and will easily forgive those who can admit their error.

And he never did man up.

There you go again with the finger.

He didn't make a mistake. All he did was a typo, leaving out the bracket in "[/quote"

Anyone could have done that. Typos happen daily.

He wasn't addressing us. He had nothing to do with our dialogue. You just quoted someone for a typo and blow it out of proportion.










.

 

[Psalm3704]

Soul sleep is absolutely false doctrine.

That's what I'm trying to tell Lastseven. You should explain it to him as he doesn't seem to understand me when I tell him.









.

 

[Postvieww]

While you are looking for a "falling away" first, I will be departing. You will see the man of sin revealed; those caught up in the rapture will not. We will not have long to wait. I believe God is going to wrap up this age very quickly now.
Just remember, the "text" was written in Greek. It is the apostasia that will come first - a departing or departure. Apo: from the whole, a part of the whole is taken - as all are stationary. It will happen in a split second.

Lamad said:

While you are looking for a "falling away" first, I will be departing. You will see the man of sin revealed; those caught up in the rapture will not.

Paul said there would be one, I am looking for Paul’s words to be fulfilled.


I assure you there is nothing in scripture that says ones view of the pre or post debate is a determining factor in being with the Lord whenever He comes.

Lamad said:

We will not have long to wait. I believe God is going to wrap up this age very quickly now.

Amen.

Lamad said:

Just remember, the "text" was written in Greek. It is the apostasia that will come first - a departing or departure.

It will be a departure from the faith not a departure from the planet. The definition of the Greek word does not support you in this. The passage clearly says that our gathering will not take place before the “falling away” and man of sin being revealed! You have to change the word “apostasia” to your liking to make that happen. Shall we number the pitiful few translations that appear to agree with you on this by using the word departure, for the overwhelming many that do not? There are even pretibbers that do not agree with you on this point. The text says what it says much to your dismay.

Lamad said:

Apo: from the whole, a part of the whole is taken - as all are stationary. It will happen in a split second.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.


The exact same Greek word is translated forsake in Acts 21:21 and is clearly used in the same way departing from the faith would be.

Acts 21:21 Interlinear: and they are instructed concerning thee, that apostasy from Moses thou dost teach to all Jews among the nations, saying -- Not to circumcise the children, nor after the customs to walk;

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Interlinear: let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt



Acts 21:21 N-AFS

GRK: σοῦ ὅτι ἀποστασίαν διδάσκεις ἀπὸ

NAS: the Gentiles to forsake Moses,

KJV: the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying

INT: you that apostasy you teach from



2 Thessalonians 2:3 N-NFS

GRK: ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ

NAS: you, for [it will not come] unless the apostasy comes

KJV: there come a falling away first,

INT: shall have come the apostasy first and



Strong's Concordance

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: apostasia

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)

Short Definition: defection, apostasy

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

This does not even hint at leaving the planet! That is your definition.


Sorry Lamad, the facts are not with you on this point.

 

[iamlamad]

The Bible teaches and both Luther and Tyndale believed the dead sleep
and are unconscious of events and the passing of time until the resurrection.

.

I think you need to read the New Testament more. Did you forget about the rich man and Lazarus?

Remember, when Luther lived, they were just coming out of the dark ages. there was almost NO revelation knowledge of the word of God at that time. They just did not know the truth - if indeed you are right about them. If that is what they believed, then they should have spent more time reading the words of Jesus.

Allow me to remind you: the rich man died. but he [meaning his spirit with his soul] ended up in fire and torment. The very fact that he KNEW he was in torment shows us he was very much alive. The same could be said for Lazarus. We know their bodies were buried, so they did not have a physical brain in hell. But they had mental facilities!

Have you just ignored the hundreds of reports we have had over the past few years of people who have died and left their bodies and went to heaven and/or to hell? The leader of my bible school died 4 times, and his spirit left his body. This happened when he was 15 years old. But each time his spirit returned. While he was OUT of body, he could think and speak, just exactly like the rich man and Lazarus.

 

[iamlamad]

That's what I'm trying to tell Lastseven. You should explain it to him as he doesn't seem to understand me when I tell him.

.

They will learn the truth within seconds of when their heart stops!

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad said:

While you are looking for a "falling away" first, I will be departing. You will see the man of sin revealed; those caught up in the rapture will not.

Paul said there would be one, I am looking for Paul’s words to be fulfilled.

Paul said there would come an apostasia first. You only think that means a falling away. I think it means a significant departing. Can you tell if there has been a significant falling away? When will you know? I can tell the significant departure has not happened. We will all know when that happens.

I assure you there is nothing in scripture that says ones view of the pre or post debate is a determining factor in being with the Lord whenever He comes.

Lamad said:

We will not have long to wait. I believe God is going to wrap up this age very quickly now.

Amen.

Lamad said:

Just remember, the "text" was written in Greek. It is the apostasia that will come first - a departing or departure.

It will be a departure from the faith not a departure from the planet. The definition of the Greek word does not support you in this. The passage clearly says that our gathering will not take place before the “falling away” and man of sin being revealed! You have to change the word “apostasia” to your liking to make that happen. Shall we number the pitiful few translations that appear to agree with you on this by using the word departure, for the overwhelming many that do not? There are even pretibbers that do not agree with you on this point. The text says what it says much to your dismay.

The passage clearly says that an apostasia must come first - and THEN the man of sin will be revealed. But it goes on to say that whatever is restraining will be "taken out of the way."

Your theory must force this "falling away" to be equivalent to the someone or something "taken out of the way." Sorry, it does not fit the context. The KJV people should have known it did not fit. remember, CONTEXT is king.

In verse three, in Paul's argument, the man of sin IS REVEALED and Paul then tells us what he will do after he has been revealed. We know from the context that he CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining him has been removed or departed or "taken out of the way."

There is no two ways about it: this much is certain by the context: what ever Paul meant by apostasia HAS TO BE the one restraining being removed or departed or "taken out of the way" for in the last part of verse 3 the man of sin is then revealed.

Therefore in your argument, the "falling away" ["from the faith" Is meaning you are adding) has to be the one restraining being "taken out of the way." I don't buy any kind of a falling away as something being "taken out of the way."

Next, what you are really saying is that the Church of Jesus Christ will get weaker, not stronger, if people are falling away. I simply do not believe that. The church has been growing stronger day by day worldwide since Martin Luther. There are more true Christians alive today that every before.

Lamad said:

Apo: from the whole, a part of the whole is taken - as all are stationary. It will happen in a split second.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.


The exact same Greek word is translated forsake in Acts 21:21 and is clearly used in the same way departing from the faith would be.

Acts 21:21 Interlinear: and they are instructed concerning thee, that apostasy from Moses thou dost teach to all Jews among the nations, saying -- Not to circumcise the children, nor after the customs to walk;

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Interlinear: let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

There is no doubt this word can mean a separation. A slightly different form is used for divorce. It is well known that at a divorce, there is separation: ONE PARTY leaves. We could use the same word, a departing or departure of either the husband or wife.
However, the same word can have other meanings. For your side of this argument, you have to ADD to the text what is being departed from. It is NOT INCLUDED in the word Apostasia.

Acts 21:21 N-AFS

GRK: σοῦ ὅτι ἀποστασίαν διδάσκεις ἀπὸ

NAS: the Gentiles to forsake Moses,

KJV: the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying

INT: you that apostasy you teach from



2 Thessalonians 2:3 N-NFS

GRK: ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ

NAS: you, for [it will not come] unless the apostasy comes

KJV: there come a falling away first,

INT: shall have come the apostasy first and



Strong's Concordance

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: apostasia

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)

Short Definition: defection, apostasy

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

This does not even hint at leaving the planet! That is your definition.


Sorry Lamad, the facts are not with you on this point.

You will note that Paul (or whoever) and to add "MOSES" so we would know what was being separated from what. In this case, the writer wanted us to know who the Gentiles were being forsaken of: Moses.

In 2 Thes 2:3 Paul did not tell us what was being departed from, or if you wish to say forsaken or forsake, what was being forsaken from. You imagine it means forsaking "the faith." Don't you think if that was Paul's meaning he would have included it? However, it is not there. All we have is apostasia with nothing else added: it is a departing, but we don't know from what or from whom.

What we DO KNOW is that is is the one restraining being "taken out of the way." If you can equate a "falling away" with something being "taken out of the way" in your mind, go with it. I cannot.

I know that the THEME of the passage is the departing. And then I see Paul writing that the departing must come first, before the man of sin can be revealed. It makes good sense and it fits perfectly with the entire context. It satisfies the theme of the passage.

 

[BABerean2]

Can you tell if there has been a significant falling away? When will you know? I can tell the significant departure has not happened. We will all know when that happens.

I do not see how anyone can watch the following and not see that we are now in the great falling away from the faith.

Statue of Baphomet unveiled in Detroit.

Satanic Ceremony at opening of the Gotthard Tunnel in Europe.