What is your end times view on the rapture?

[iamlamad]

Why would Paul use the clear words “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ , and by our gathering together unto him” in 2 Thess. 2:1 and then resort to coded “apostasia” in verse 3 to refer to the same event? The fact is that line of reasoning makes no sense. Why would the Holy Spirit through Paul intentionally try to confuse the meaning of this passage to the point of needing linguist experts to try and decipher what was said. Where else in Paul’s writings is a similar tactic used within the space of 3 verses?



This entire argument is based on word definitions.

Falling away = departure from the faith, supported by 1 Tim. 4:1

or

Departure = removal to another place (heaven) not supported in scripture.



Day of Christ = the coming of the Lord and our gathering, supported by other uses in the NT of the same or similar phrases.

or

Day of Christ = extended time of wrath and tribulation, not supported by other NT examples

We will just have to ask Jesus when we see Him. I cannot tell you why the Holy Spirit chose to write this passage as He did.

Of course I disagree on "removal to another place (heaven) not supported in scripture." I think that is what John 14 is all about.

It is the Day of the Lord that is the extended time of wrath. I think we agree on this one point.

 

[dfw69]

ha ha! These are all "figments!" They are in his imagination!

Oh like seeing unicorns drinking from an oasis in the desert? ...I see now lol

 

[Ronald]

Well, being a Mid-trib adherent for a long time, I view the 7th Trumpet as meaning the last trumpet. If it isn't the last then the last would be the 8th; and if it was before the seven trumpets, it wouldn't be the last. At the seventh trumpet, we are raptured and then the seven bowls are released, therefore it's not quite over yet which eliminates the Post-Trib view also the Pre-Trib view as well since we would have to suffer through the first six trumpets before we come to the seventh. Examine the events that occur at that time Rev. 11:15. I also think the trumpets and bowls fall within the seals and that Rev. 7:9 where the multitude is seen in heaven also reflects this 7th trumpet from a different vantage point.
And to get more specific as to the time. The clock started to tick in 1948 when Israel became a nation and if you add 70 years (one generation) we are close. Adding also 50 years to 1967 would be a Jubilee year coming up.
But the real interesting sign is that of Rev. 12:1, where the woman symbolically represents Israel and then the later verses, the child, Jesus. But there is also a literal interpretation to this. It is an astrological sign. Jews used the stars, sun and moon for signs (Gen. 1:14) This particular rare sign will appear on Sept. 23, 2017, Virgo with the moon at her feet, clothed by the sun and 12 stars around her head. Leo has 9 stars and Mercury, Venus and Mars will accompany them. This just happens to be right around the Feast of the Trumpets. We'll see.

 

[Revealing Times]

I knew you would bring up this logic against the temple ...but you also know "house" can refer to the temple "the house of god" and Jesus was at the temple when he spoke these words conserning the house in desolation...after he spoke those words against the temple, he then leaves the temple and prophecies it's coming destruction Matthew 24:1

Reading the text we see what it means.

Well I would say he was referring to Jerusalem as well which would include the temple ... calling it by name points to the city where the messiah would one day have his headquarters being the throne of David ...

nonetheless the city of Jerusalem and the temple are in desolation as
Jerusalem killed no prophets, hes speaking about the people. long as they continue to reject Jesus as the one God prophecied to have being his only begotten son

Cities don't nor can the commit an action. Jesus is speaking about those that would soon kill and reject him, not seeing him again until they called him THE MESSIAH.

Yes they will repent and accept him

But then when he has returned he will build Ezekiel temple or supervise its construction

When he returns it OVER..............He wipes out all evil.

So your saying the temple the Jews will built is for Jesus to sit on and yet the man of sin will come to sit on this newly built temple and then Jesus will come to cleanse the temple and rule?

The Holy city will be divided into 3 parts yet the temple they have built for Jesus is not damaged? Do you realize the size of Ezekiel city and temple?

There is no need for a TEMPLE, God dwells in our hearts, we will dwell with God henceforth in Heaven. The Temple is Israel thinking they need a TEMPLE for their God to dwell in, they thus restart the Sacrifices, but soon realize the Jesus is their Messiah, then they start worshiping Jesus in the Temple right before the Abomination of Desolation happens.

I disagree with that spirituality thinking ... the dead bones prophecy is not some parable. It is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled... it represents a "literal" resurrection of Jewish people who will inhabited Jerusalem and Israel... they were not cut off from their inheritance ...god is going to literally raise an army of dead men (Israel) who will fight against Jesus enemies when Jesus returns

Ummmmmmmm no, it is speaking about Israel as a NATION BEING DEAD........Israel as a Nation is NOW ALIVE. This is not even debatable.

Again I see your point and agree that they will not accept the man of sin because of the idol of himself set up in the temple. they will not bow down to an idol to worship another. God is not made of stone and because of this great tribulation comes for them yet god says a remnant will be saved who will cry out to him

But before this day eventually takes place, the Jews will have found a son of David to restore Jerusalem and the temple and greater Israel many years before

The IDOL is set up, and ISRAEL IS SHOCKED/STUNNED, then they flee to the Wilderness. As a Nation they do not worship in in ANY MANNER the Anti-Christ. There will be a Few Jews, but as a Nation, they do not accept the Anti-Christ. THEY FLEE.

What do you think Jesus was referring to when he said Matthew 24:23-26?

Go back and reread the passage and put it together. ISRAEL FLEES TO THE WILDERNESS, right ? Why ? To be protected by God. So why does Jesus warn them about the FAKE CHRIST and the False Prophets ? Because the Anti-Christ wants to KILL THEM, Of course, so he is naturally going to try and FAKE the coming of Jesus, not to get the Jews to Worship him, but in order to KILL THE JEWS !! So Jesus says, DON'T BELIEVE IT, or don't go out unto the Desert or to the Secret Chambers, but WATCH FOR ME COMING IN THE EASTERN SKIES !! This is why they will not be deceived, BECAUSE JESUS TOLD THEM !! It has nothing to do with Israel accepting these Fake Christs and False Prophets, but everything to do with keeping Israel from GOING OUT UNTO THEM !!

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you that the man of sin and Jesus comes soon within our lifetime... this kind of thinking may lead to a false messiah which Jesus predicts would come

You can't really disagree with a Vision from God. Either you say I am lying or not. But you can't dispute my vision.

Let's just agree to disagree here

The Scriptures speaks it in that exact manner. Everyone knows those scriptures that say Babylon will ever be inhabited again.

Not cool to assume I'm blind just because I disagree with you

The wrath of god was completed in the pouring out of the 7th bowl

I'm not gonna throw out 17,18 because you say so ... if you wish to ignore scripture ..it's on you .. I choose not to

That was metaphorically suggested. Don't go all mushy on me and start complaining about a comment being to strong. I AGREE IN THE 7TH BOWL COMMENT.....Now look at the scripture that backs up what you just said....AND MY POINT.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

This is chapter 16. I know it boggles peoples minds, but this is Jesus destroying the Anti-Christ, Rev. 17 tells of the destruction of FALSE RELIGION, and the Anti-Christ and his Kings destroys the HARLOT, how can that happen in Rev. 17:16 when Jesus just destroyed them all in Rev. chapter 16 and said IT IS DONE ? Rev. 18 is the Seals/Trumpet and Vial Judgments coming against BABYLON (Anti-Christ, 10 Kings and Kings of the East) and we know that ended where ? REVELATION 16:17 IT IS DONE.

Even Revelation 19 is mostly over by he time Rev. 16 finishes. Only Rev. 19:20 goes a tad further, and shows the Beast and False Prophet being cast into HELL.....Rev. 9:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The Marriage happens for the previous Seven Years. We come back with Jesus and Destroy the Anti-Christ and all of his Minions in Rev. 16:17.

Like I said, it is right there in scriptures. Jesus called the Pharisees Blind Guides in Matthew 23:16 and stated elsewhere that seeing, they see not. It is not personal. We just have to see what is there. The Seventh Vial happens in Rev. 16:17. IT IS DONE !! That is what the Scriptures show.

 

[Revealing Times]

Why would Paul use the clear words “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ , and by our gathering together unto him” in 2 Thess. 2:1 and then resort to coded “apostasia” in verse 3 to refer to the same event? The fact is that line of reasoning makes no sense. Why would the Holy Spirit through Paul intentionally try to confuse the meaning of this passage to the point of needing linguist experts to try and decipher what was said. Where else in Paul’s writings is a similar tactic used within the space of 3 verses?

It makes plenty of sense. Words change all the time. For 1500 years the word mean a DEPARTING it could be from ANYTHING, a Faith, a Building a World it was subject to that which was being spoken about in the passage or of in another book. Its called and ARTICLE it really only means a Subject that is being spoken of. in 2016 sadly most see the word Gay and think Homosexual. In 1916 most people thought of A GAY OLD TIME...Happy.

The KJV said apostisia mean a departing (falling away) of the Faith and that what apostisia has become know as. But it means DEPART(ED) and that was how the first Seven English translations saw it, and the Latin Vulgate from the year 400 to present. What is the SUBJECT ? The Gathering together unto the Lord, and the Thessalonians were scared they had missed it, and were in the DAY OF THE LORD (Gods Wrath). So Paul tells the don't be deceived as if THAT DAY has come upon you, for THAT DAY (Gods Wrath) can not come upon you until the Departing (Gathering together unto the Lord prevents the Thessalonians from going through what they were FEARING...God Wrath !! ) and the that Man of Sin is Revealed.....So the Church Departs AND THEN, and ONLY THEN, can the Anti-Christ come forth. READING FURTHER, with this is mind, now other scriptures that seem to be obscure and mysterious can better be understood.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

So Paul had already explained this to them once when he was with them. I ask a VERY LOGICAL QUESTION HERE: If Paul had told them they were going to have to go through this Tribulation period before, WHY WERE THEY FEARING ANYTHING ? Why were they fearing they had missed the Gathering together unto the Lord ? Why were they Fearing they were in Gods coming Wrath ? It makes ZERO LOGICAL SENSE. But if they thought they had Missed the Departure of the Church, WOW, Suddenly everything fits !! They were telling Paul they had missed the "RAPTURE" according to some and the Wrath of God was supposedly NIGH....To that Paul says NONSENSE, I have already told you the order of events. The [Church] Departs and THEN the Anti-Christ can come forth.

So what is blocking the Anti-Christ from coming forth ? Well that is solved with this understanding also. And NOW YOU KNOW what Stops the Anti-Christ from coming forth, that he might be revealed in HIS TIME, So what is it ? WELL........The very thing that DEPARTS, the Holy Spirit working through the CHURCH IS NOR MORE, only the Holy Spirit remains, for he must now work through the Two-Witnesses and the 144,000............Only the Church DEPARTS. Amen. Glory to God.

 

[Revealing Times]

Christ is the Lord............Either way its the Same Thing

 

[BABerean2]

So what is blocking the Anti-Christ from coming forth ? Well that is solved with this understanding also. And NOW YOU KNOW what Stops the Anti-Christ from coming forth, that he might be revealed in HIS TIME, So what is it ? WELL........The very thing that DEPARTS, the Holy Spirit working through the CHURCH IS NOR MORE, only the Holy Spirit remains, for he must now work through the Two-Witnesses and the 144,000............Only the Church DEPARTS. Amen. Glory to God.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
The Old Covenant system is "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

God is not going to end the New Covenant age of Grace and go back to the now "obsolete" Sinai covenant, with Moses as the mediator instead of Christ. It is not found in the Bible.

Based on Revelation 1:20 and Romans chapter 11, the lampstands and the olive trees are a symbol of the churches.

Rev 11:4　 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.　

Rev 1:20　 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.　

Rom 11:17　 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,　

Mat_18:16　 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY WORD MAY BE ESTABLISHED.'

Act_1:8　 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."



The 144,000 are described by John as being the "firstfruits" of the Lamb. Paul uses the same language to describe Christians in Romans 16:5.

We also have those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant of Christ. (Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 12:18-24)

Therefore, the "Age of Grace" does not come to an end before the Second Coming of Christ.

The Holy Spirit is not removed from the earth before the Second Coming.

.

 

[Postvieww]

This seems to refer to the day of the rapture.

I cannot make these two days the same - no matter that Jesus is Lord! Paul is the only writer of the day of Christ, and he is the only one with the revelation of the rapture. It would seem that in Paul's mind, the "day of Christ" is only one day and it is the day we are caught up.

The big question: which makes more sense in the context of 2 thes. 2?

Thanks for at least commenting on each verse that is progress. So if I understand you correctly, 1 Corin.1:8, 1 Corin. 5:5, 2 Corin. 1:14, Philip. 1:6, Philip. 1:10 all refer to the (rapture) resurrection. 2 Thess. 2:2 was not as clear the way you answered I believe you said that too was the (rapture) resurrection ,but then you seem to change that position and say you cannot make these two days the same.

So we are left with 1 Thess 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10 as referring back to the OT “day of darkness and wrath” your words.


My question was “In which of the following passages can we say from the text “the day” is a period of time such as a 7 year tribulation?”. You really didn’t specifically answer my question or you do not think any of them refer to a period of time. You only said “it is a day of darkness and wrath”. Please clarify??

Let’s take them one at a time.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Since chapters and verse numbers were added later How do you separate 5:1 from chapter 4 since they are tied together with the word “But” ????

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

To me coming as a “thief in the night” shows a quick and swift one time event. So that would eliminate “day of the Lord” as being a long period of time such as 3 ½ or 7 years. Just my opinion.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Your definition “a day of darkness and wrath” is born out in the text here. So I guess we agree on that one point so far.


It is equally clear the sudden destruction comes on “them” and “they shall not escape”. So we can conclude whatever “darkness and wrath” that comes on “them” will not be on “us”. Since Paul says “sudden destruction” it does not denote a long period of time such as 3 ½, or 7 years whatever your eschatology.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Now here is where things turn south for you. Paul is now referring to “ye brethren” not “ye left behind”. Since it will not over take us, the reason given is that we are not in darkness not that we are removed from the scene.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Paul places himself in this group of “ye children of the light” by the word “we”

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Paul again places himself in this group by the word “us”. If we are watching it implies we will see something.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Clearly showing the condition of “them” and “they” that will receive “sudden destruction”.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Clearly showing the condition of “us” those in Paul’s group, who will not be overtaken as a thief, Vs 4.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Clearly showing we will not be a part of “darkness” that comes as a thief on “them”.


Nothing in this entire passage even hints that “we” “us” will be removed.


Verse 4 says” But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief ” this verse does not say we are in heaven so we will not be affected it says we will not be affected because we are “children of the light”. The clear implication is that we are still here and will not be surprised by what is to take place to “them”.

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Paul says nearly the same thing here as he did in 1 Thess. 4:18


My point to you is whatever your definition of “day of the Lord ” in Chapter 5, here it is the same day as the coming for the saints in chapter 4. Chapter 4 gives more detail on our fate whereas chapter 5 gives more detail on “their” fate, “them” and “they” .


If day of the Lord in chapter 5 here is the same as the day in chapter 4 it is also the same as the day in 2 Thess 2:1-3

There is absolutely no indication in the text “we” are in heaven while the fate of “them “ is carried out.

Lamad said:

I cannot make these two days the same - no matter that Jesus is Lord! Paul is the only writer of the day of Christ, and he is the only one with the revelation of the rapture. It would seem that in Paul's mind, the "day of Christ" is only one day and it is the day we are caught up.

Even in your response to 1 Thess 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10 you said ” It is a day of darkness and wrath” not a period of time such as 3 ½ or 7 years.


My conclusion. Day of Christ, Day of the Lord or any variation thereof are the same event.

 

[iamlamad]

Well, being a Mid-trib adherent for a long time, I view the 7th Trumpet as meaning the last trumpet. If it isn't the last then the last would be the 8th; and if it was before the seven trumpets, it wouldn't be the last. At the seventh trumpet, we are raptured and then the seven bowls are released, therefore it's not quite over yet which eliminates the Post-Trib view also the Pre-Trib view as well since we would have to suffer through the first six trumpets before we come to the seventh. Examine the events that occur at that time Rev. 11:15. I also think the trumpets and bowls fall within the seals and that Rev. 7:9 where the multitude is seen in heaven also reflects this 7th trumpet from a different vantage point.
the Feast of the Trumpets. We'll see.

Wow! You have murdered John's chronology! Have you never read my axiom on Revelation?

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology, is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong!

The true chronology is this: NO trumpet can be sounded until all seals are broken. This is written and it is also logical: the seals are preventing the scroll (book) from being opened. Inside are the trumpets and vials judgments. They CANNOT happen until all seals are broken or opened. Then, no vials will be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded. It is simply the way it is written.

By the way, the chronology is perfect as written and needs no rearranging!

The 7th trumpet certainly is the last trumpet OF THAT SERIES. Paul's "last trump" is of a different series - probably the series of the Feast of Trumpets.

The 7th trumpet will also probably NOT be the last trumpet ever: for that would mean God would destroy all trumpets and even the ability to create trumpets, so that all through the millennial reign there could never be another trumpet sounding. Of course this is silly - but it makes the point: the 7th is the last of THAT SERIES.

Next, there is no rapture or not gathering found in Revelation concerning the 7th trumpet. It marks the exact midpoint of the week, but no gathering. What does happen is Adam's lease runs out (the scroll or book) and Satan's ONLY hold to earth is that he usurped Adam's lease. So the moment Adam's lease ends (presumably a 6000 year lease) Satan is kicked out (the great battle in the heavens shown in Rev. 12) and the kingdoms are transferred to Jesus Christ (show at the 7th trumpet).

However, Jesus does NOT return to earth then to take physical possession. He will not return until after the 7th vial ends the 70th week.

We disagree on almost every point.

 

[Postvieww]

We will just have to ask Jesus when we see Him. I cannot tell you why the Holy Spirit chose to write this passage as He did.

Of course I disagree on "removal to another place (heaven) not supported in scripture." I think that is what John 14 is all about.

It is the Day of the Lord that is the extended time of wrath. I think we agree on this one point.

Lamad said:

We will just have to ask Jesus when we see Him. I cannot tell you why the Holy Spirit chose to write this passage as He did.

Of course I disagree on "removal to another place (heaven) not supported in scripture." I think that is what John 14 is all about.

Nothing in the text says that, you assume that. When He comes, He will be here and we will be with Him here.


John 14:23 the word “abode” (3438) is the same word as “mansions” (3438) in verse 2.


John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

It is the Day of the Lord that is the extended time of wrath. I think we agree on this one point.

No, I don’t think you have shown that to be the case from any text.

 

[iamlamad]

Thanks for at least commenting on each verse that is progress. So if I understand you correctly, 1 Corin.1:8, 1 Corin. 5:5, 2 Corin. 1:14, Philip. 1:6, Philip. 1:10 all refer to the (rapture) resurrection. 2 Thess. 2:2 was not as clear the way you answered I believe you said that too was the (rapture) resurrection ,but then you seem to change that position and say you cannot make these two days the same.

So we are left with 1 Thess 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10 as referring back to the OT “day of darkness and wrath” your words.


My question was “In which of the following passages can we say from the text “the day” is a period of time such as a 7 year tribulation?”. You really didn’t specifically answer my question or you do not think any of them refer to a period of time. You only said “it is a day of darkness and wrath”. Please clarify??

Let’s take them one at a time.

...

My conclusion. Day of Christ, Day of the Lord or any variation thereof are the same event.

I thought about this for hours yesterday. I believe for the moment that I agree with you: they are the same, but from a different perspective! But we must differentiate from the beginning of an event and the ending of the say event. Peter spoke of the Day of the Lord and the earth being burned up. So it seems a new heaven and new earth time frame is still a part of the Day of the Lord.

Isa 13:9-10
9) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (10) For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.”

Here we see that the START of the Day is a cruel start and with Wrath. I see that John and Paul are in perfect agreement. I see the rapture as the trigger for the Day by Paul in 1 Thes. 4 & 5.
I find Paul's rapture will be a moment before the great earthquake at the 6th seal and indeed, the dead in Christ rising as the cause of the earthquake. And John then wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." So the day of the Lord BEGINS with "Sudden destruction."

I agree, 1 Thes. 5 follows 1 Thes. 4 and Paul did NOT change the subject.
I believe this is what Paul is teaching there:

A suddenly is coming. It will be the dead in Christ flying up out of the ground into the air. It will happen at a time of peace and safety. It will cause a great earthquake.

Then Paul tells us, at the SUDDEN event, two groups of people get two different results: those living in Christ get "salvation" and get to "live together with Him." This is saying exactly the same thing as "so shall we ever be with the Lord" from chapter 4, again tying chapter 5 to chapter 4. Therefore, Paul is telling us in his choice of the word "salvation" that the WAY get get to "live together with Him" is that we are caught up before the earthquake harms us. We as those "in Christ" get raptured, while those living in the darkness get "sudden destruction." Paul then compares this sudden destruction to the "Day of the Lord." And this "Day of the Lord is certainly tied right back to the rapture in chapter 4. This is why I say the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY.

When I study Revelation, I see the trumpet judgments and vials as very much a part of the Day of the Lord as God destroying the world (as the Old Testament prophets described the DAY) and destroying the sinners in it. And from what I read, it would be impossible for "the DAY" to be only one day long! Just one trumpet judgment lasts for months.

My perspective then, is that this period of time, lasting at least for the 7 years, and probably also includes the Millennial reign of Christ will begin with the rapture, as the trigger, and then the time of judgment for the sinner, but a time of joy for the believer. It is the say period of time, but different groups of people get different results. For the believer, Paul called this time "the day of Christ, which will start with the rapture, then include the judgment seat of Christ, our 7 plus years in heaven, enjoying the marriage and supper in heaven, returning with Christ to whip the antichrist and his armies, then on into the millennial reign.

Paul just put a new name on it to see it from the perspective of the believer.

coming as a “thief in the night” shows a quick and swift one time event.
"Coming" is the BEGINNING of the Day, not the entire day. It begins with His coming for the rapture, and that rapture will trigger all the rest of the Day.

Nothing in this entire passage even hints that “we” “us” will be removed.

The clear implication is that we are still here and will not be surprised by what is to take place to “them”.
Not true! When Paul wrote we will be caught up in chapter 4, and "so shall we ever be with the Lord," that is removal. When Paul wrote in chapter 5, "we shall live together with Him," that is removal.

If day of the Lord in chapter 5 here is the same as the day in chapter 4 it is also the same as the day in 2 Thess 2:1-3

I agree. I see this as the same period of time, but with two persepctives: those living in the light, versus those living in the darkness. But I see this entire period of time STARTING with Christ coming as a thief in the night (a time totally unexpected) and the dead in Christ rising is the very first event, with those alive in Christ following a moment later.

But the dead in Christ rising will be the cause of the "sudden destruction" start of the bad part of "the Day" when judgment and wrath come. So it starts out great for those in the light, and ends up terrible for those in the darkness. From the perspective of those living in the light of the gospel, it is "the day of Christ, where we get to "live together with Him." From the perspective of the sinner, it is "the day of the Lord," a dark day of judgment.

So the START of the day is the rapture. Paul makes this clear. But then begins judgment that will last for 7 years.

This fits 2 Thes. 2. They were troubled because Paul had taught them the rapture would come before the time of judgment, but it seemed by the persecution they were IN judgment. Then perhaps they received a letter that TOLD them they were in the day of the Lord. No wonder they were upset. They thought either Paul was wrong or they had missed the rapture.

Paul's argument is to prove to them that "The DAY" had not come, and they were NOT in it. His argument was that the man of sin revealed would be proof positive that the DAY (from the perspective of the sinner - judgment) would then be present. In other words, man of sin revealed equals Day of the Lord present.

Now you will remind me that Paul used "day of Christ" here. But it seems we agree it is the same period of time, with different titles depending on perspective.

I have looked at many translations. It seems the preferred translation now is "day of the Lord." I agree, for it is what Paul used in his first letter.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad said:

We will just have to ask Jesus when we see Him. I cannot tell you why the Holy Spirit chose to write this passage as He did.

Of course I disagree on "removal to another place (heaven) not supported in scripture." I think that is what John 14 is all about.

Nothing in the text says that, you assume that. When He comes, He will be here and we will be with Him here.

That depends on WHEN He comes. If he comes pretrib, OF COURSE He will be in heaven, where, by the way, we will find the homes he has prepared for us. This depend on if you find the need to rearrange Revelation. What I am saying is, a pretrib perspective versus a posttrib takes in many verses. And our preconceptions causes us to see each verse from that perspective.

John 14:23 the word “abode” (3438) is the same word as “mansions” (3438) in verse 2.


John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I agree. When we are born again, God comes to live in our temple, our spirit man. And when He takes us to the places He has prepared for us in heaven, we will live there with Him for 7 + years.

It is the Day of the Lord that is the extended time of wrath. I think we agree on this one point.

No, I don’t think you have shown that to be the case from any text.

When we examine every text that includes "the day of the Lord," "the day of Christ" and "the day," we find it impossible that it is one 24 hour period of time. What we can determine is, it has a beginning. If we believe the Old Testament verses on the day, it is very clear that the trumpet and vial judgments are very much a part of "the day."

 

[BABerean2]

By the way, the chronology is perfect as written and needs no rearranging!

Except for those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of Revelation chapter 6.

And except for "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, which many try to ignore because it does not fit their doctrine.

And the review of Church history at the beginning of chapter 12, which includes the birth and death of Christ.

And those under the Blood of the Lamb at Revelation 12:11, which destroys the idea that members of the New Covenant Church cannot be present at this point in time.

And the "harvest" of chapter 14.

And when Christ comes "as a thief", at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, which occurs before chapter 19.

.

 

[dfw69]

Cities don't nor can the commit an action. Jesus is speaking about those that would soon kill and reject him, not seeing him again until they called him THE MESSIAH.

there is the need to destroy cities such as sodom and Gomorrah because of its desolation or uselessness, being barren or sterile to produce good fruits

... one day there will be such a great earthquake the world has never known and the cities of the nations who follow the beast will be destroyed and then Babylon will then come to mind and she too will be destroyed. Revelation 17,18 gives us that description of Babylon destruction

There is no need for a TEMPLE, God dwells in our hearts, we will dwell with God henceforth in Heaven. The Temple is Israel thinking they need a TEMPLE for their God to dwell in, they thus restart the Sacrifices, but soon realize the Jesus is their Messiah, then they start worshiping Jesus in the Temple right before the Abomination of Desolation happens.

So you believe Ezekiel temple will never be built? I disagree

Ummmmmmmm no, it is speaking about Israel as a NATION BEING DEAD........Israel as a Nation is NOW ALIVE. This is not even debatable.

Lol yes it is ... the entire passage is about a man beholding a literal resurrection taking place right before his eyes ...you can't see that?..... He literally watched God perform a miracle of the reverse process of decay ...making bones go from death to life to produce a mighty army ...

if you saw that vision taking place, would you say "awe how cute, that just means Israel is a nation again"? Or would you drop to you knees and yell "praise God!!! For God is able to ressurrect a valley of dead bones of men into a mighty army of living men"?

It's no doubt a vision of future resurrection of unwanted bones into a useful mighty army. This indeed is not even debatable. you don't believe in the power of God to resurrect an army?... I , sure as heaven, do....

The IDOL is set up, and ISRAEL IS SHOCKED/STUNNED, then they flee to the Wilderness. As a Nation they do not worship in in ANY MANNER the Anti-Christ. There will be a Few Jews, but as a Nation, they do not accept the Anti-Christ. THEY FLEE.

You can't see that there is a gap between the forming of the messianic era to the time of the final antichrist which is a period of about say 500 years ... that's ok, no worries

Go back and reread the passage and put it together. ISRAEL FLEES TO THE WILDERNESS, right ? Why ? To be protected by God. So why does Jesus warn them about the FAKE CHRIST and the False Prophets ? Because the Anti-Christ wants to KILL THEM, Of course, so he is naturally going to try and FAKE the coming of Jesus, not to get the Jews to Worship him, but in order to KILL THE JEWS !! So Jesus says, DON'T BELIEVE IT, or don't go out unto the Desert or to the Secret Chambers, but WATCH FOR ME COMING IN THE EASTERN SKIES !! This is why they will not be deceived, BECAUSE JESUS TOLD THEM !! It has nothing to do with Israel accepting these Fake Christs and False Prophets, but everything to do with keeping Israel from GOING OUT UNTO THEM !!

That's right but nonetheless try to understand that many are gonna be deceived when the false messiahs come as well as false prophets and the teachings of those days which cause many to fall away from the faith in the true messiah Jesus

The Scriptures speaks it in that exact manner. Everyone knows those scriptures that say Babylon will ever be inhabited again.

The scriptures conserning Babylon have yet to be fulfilled... if you would not throw out rev 17 , 18 then you would agree ... buuutt noooo

That was metaphorically suggested. Don't go all mushy on me and start complaining about a comment being to strong. I AGREE IN THE 7TH BOWL COMMENT.....Now look at the scripture that backs up what you just said....AND MY POINT.

Well... don't call me blind just because I disagree with you to cast off rev 17,18 which the book of revelation clearly says not to do then I won't get all mushy on you... deal?

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

This is chapter 16. I know it boggles peoples minds, but this is Jesus destroying the Anti-Christ, Rev. 17 tells of the destruction of FALSE RELIGION, and the Anti-Christ and his Kings destroys the HARLOT, how can that happen in Rev. 17:16 when Jesus just destroyed them all in Rev. chapter 16 and said IT IS DONE ? Rev. 18 is the Seals/Trumpet and Vial Judgments coming against BABYLON (Anti-Christ, 10 Kings and Kings of the East) and we know that ended where ? REVELATION 16:17 IT IS DONE.

Even Revelation 19 is mostly over by he time Rev. 16 finishes. Only Rev. 19:20 goes a tad further, and shows the Beast and False Prophet being cast into HELL.....Rev. 9:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The Marriage happens for the previous Seven Years. We come back with Jesus and Destroy the Anti-Christ and all of his Minions in Rev. 16:17.

Like I said, it is right there in scriptures. Jesus called the Pharisees Blind Guides in Matthew 23:16 and stated elsewhere that seeing, they see not. It is not personal. We just have to see what is there. The Seventh Vial happens in Rev. 16:17. IT IS DONE !! That is what the Scriptures show.

Yet Revelation 17,18 explains in further details of what was "done" in revelation 16 because Babylon is a key part of the falling of the nations which cause their destruction . Don't ask me to throw it out and dismiss it because I won't ...we are commanded not to and a severe punishment awaits those that do...

 

[Ronald]

Wow! You have murdered John's chronology! Have you never read my axiom on Revelation?

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology, is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong!

The true chronology is this: NO trumpet can be sounded until all seals are broken. This is written and it is also logical: the seals are preventing the scroll (book) from being opened. Inside are the trumpets and vials judgments. They CANNOT happen until all seals are broken or opened. Then, no vials will be poured out until all 7 trumpets are sounded. It is simply the way it is written.

By the way, the chronology is perfect as written and needs no rearranging!

The 7th trumpet certainly is the last trumpet OF THAT SERIES. Paul's "last trump" is of a different series - probably the series of the Feast of Trumpets.

The 7th trumpet will also probably NOT be the last trumpet ever: for that would mean God would destroy all trumpets and even the ability to create trumpets, so that all through the millennial reign there could never be another trumpet sounding. Of course this is silly - but it makes the point: the 7th is the last of THAT SERIES.

Next, there is no rapture or not gathering found in Revelation concerning the 7th trumpet. It marks the exact midpoint of the week, but no gathering. What does happen is Adam's lease runs out (the scroll or book) and Satan's ONLY hold to earth is that he usurped Adam's lease. So the moment Adam's lease ends (presumably a 6000 year lease) Satan is kicked out (the great battle in the heavens shown in Rev. 12) and the kingdoms are transferred to Jesus Christ (show at the 7th trumpet).

However, Jesus does NOT return to earth then to take physical possession. He will not return until after the 7th vial ends the 70th week.

We disagree on almost every point.

First of all, it's not John's chronology, he didn't author the book, he took dictation from Jesus. And btw, Revelation is NOT in chronological order. It overlaps, repeats, and shows us different vantage points like a transparent sphere with objects inside that you would have to turn to see the whole.
Your are wrong about the seals. The scroll was opened just after Jesus ascended into heaven. We wouldn't know what was in it unless it had been. But it is like a script in a play filled with orders but none of it happens until the stage is set and performers act it out. In other words, the trumpets and bowls fall within the Seals. You cannot read Revelation chronologically, it doesn't work that way. It goes back and forth. Events in the 14th chapter are just a different vantage point of events in the 7th.
You are entitled to your view or many. But if you would examine what happens at the sound of the 7th Trumpet and if you would imagine that to be the last, there is no other way to look at it.
These things happen at the 7th Trumpet:
1. The kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of Our Lord, Jesus. Then He orders wrath from the bowls. And are taken up at that time because we are no subject to this wrath.
2. The Elders give thanks to God, who is and who was and has taken His reign at this time. "The time has come to judge ..."
3. God's Temple in heaven opens to receive the Multitude that just were raptured (came out of the Great Tribulation) This is another vantage point of Rev. 7:9.
4. Worldwide earthquake, giant hailstones.
1Cor 15:52 & 1Thes. 4:16 & Rev. 11:15 are all the same event.

 

[iamlamad]

Except for those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of Revelation chapter 6.

Wrong! They are at the beginning of the Day of the Lord, just as John wrote: the day of His wrath has come. That means STARTING, not ended.

And except for "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, which many try to ignore because it does not fit their doctrine.
You are closer, but still wrong. This is written as a prophecy: a prophecy can be written any time before the event. Good try here: most people miss this.

And the review of Church history at the beginning of chapter 12, which includes the birth and death of Christ.

You missed the fact that John wrote this as a parenthesis. A parenthesis has no bearing on chronology. Good try here. He also has a longer one in chapter 11. Most people miss it.

And those under the Blood of the Lamb at Revelation 12:11, which destroys the idea that members of the New Covenant Church cannot be present at this point in time.

The chronology is impeccable here. It is at the midpoint of the week, just after the fleeing. But there are again believers in Christ on earth. Either they are the lukewarm turned hot, or new believers. Will they become a part of the Bride who was previously taken to heaven? If they resist the mark and lose their head, they will make it to heaven. God does not tell us if they will be a part of the Bride. I suspect they will.

And the "harvest" of chapter 14.

Chapter 14 is a troubling chapter for some. I suspect this harvest is a prophecy given as a picture. It is foretelling that a great number will be harvested, both of the righteous and the unrighteous. Will it happen at the midpoint or shortly after, where chapter 14 fits? No. Therefore I think it is prophecy.

And when Christ comes "as a thief", at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, which occurs before chapter 19.

Does anyone know the day and the hour? No. It is prophetic. He comes in chapter 19. But when He comes, no one will know the exact time.

You have done far better than most here.

In general, when I say that Revelation is chronological, I mean that anything in a given chapter will come AFTER the events of a previous chapter and before events in a later chapter. I also mean no seal can be pulled out of its sequence. Same with trumpets.

 

[BABerean2]

Wrong! They are at the beginning of the Day of the Lord, just as John wrote: the day of His wrath has come. That means STARTING, not ended.

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

(ESV) The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

(Geneva) And the Gentiles were angrie, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they shoulde be iudged, and that thou shouldest giue reward vnto thy seruants the Prophets, and to the Saintes, and to them that feare thy Name, to small and great, and shouldest destroy them, which destroy the earth.

(GW) The nations were angry, but your anger has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged: to reward your servants, the prophets, your holy people, and those who fear your name, no matter if they are important or unimportant, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
(It is not reasonable to claim that this version is a future event.)

(LITV-TSP) And the nations were full of wrath; and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your slaves, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.

(KJV) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

(YLT) and the nations were angry, and Thine anger did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.'


On Revelation 11:18, even though it says the time of the judgment of the dead has come, if it does not fit, you just say it is a prophecy. That is a unique way of making a chronology work.

How about Rev. 12, and 14, and 16:15-16?

.

 

[Revealing Times]

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
The Old Covenant system is "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

God is not going to end the New Covenant age of Grace and go back to the now "obsolete" Sinai covenant, with Moses as the mediator instead of Christ. It is not found in the Bible.

Based on Revelation 1:20 and Romans chapter 11, the lampstands and the olive trees are a symbol of the churches.

And just what does this drivel have to do with anything I said ?

All I see is a post that spouts off incoherent passages without any link to anything I said. So basically, have no reply.

 

[Revealing Times]

there is the need to destroy cities such as sodom and Gomorrah because of its desolation or uselessness, being barren or sterile to produce good fruits

... one day there will be such a great earthquake the world has never known and the cities of the nations who follow the beast will be destroyed and then Babylon will then come to mind and she too will be destroyed. Revelation 17,18 gives us that description of Babylon destruction

The Bible doesn't say that. It says the CITY (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts. This is called SOLVING PUZZLES by using logic. What is the City? Well, in Vial 6 they Gathered the Nations unto Armageddon, which is in Israel, now where does Jesus land? In Zechariah 14 we see that he lands on the Mt. of Olives (in Jerusalem) just before destroying the Nations that come against Israel.

SO......The City that is divided is Jerusalem, and we understand the Dead Sea will be Dead no longer, the Mountain will split into. So the CITY is Jerusalem, not some fictional Babylon somewhere. You guys just don't seem to be able to put all the verses together, you have to cross reference all the verses to get to the truth.

The Cities of the Nations are THOSE GATHERED AGAINST ISRAEL at Armageddon, which is mentioned in VIAL 6, so they are destroyed, and God remembers Babylon, and thus destroys the Anti-Christ, the 10 Nations and the Kings of the East. After this, IT IS DONE....There is nothing left. These are BABYLON.

So you believe Ezekiel temple will never be built? I disagree

Reread what I said.......Israel rebuilds the Temple, thinking they need animal sacrifices. Elijah returns and preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ as being Israel's Savior, then Israel REPENTS and ACCEPTS Jesus and they immediately STOP THE SACRIFICIAL OFFERINGS, and start worshiping Jesus and thus make offerings of PRAYER and REPENTANCE. Then the Anti-Christ comes in and defiles the Temple. Think about it, how can the Anti-Christ defile a Temple that is not worshiping Jesus at the time he overtakes it? Any Temple sacrificing animals when Jesus has already paid the PRICE for our Sins, is already DEFILED....Jesus has to be being Worshiped at the Temple in order for the Temple to be defiled when the A.C. comes forth.

Lol yes it is ... the entire passage is about a man beholding a literal resurrection taking place right before his eyes ...you can't see that?..... He literally watched God perform a miracle of the reverse process of decay ...making bones go from death to life to produce a mighty army ...

if you saw that vision taking place, would you say "awe how cute, that just means Israel is a nation again"? Or would you drop to you knees and yell "praise God!!! For God is able to ressurrect a valley of dead bones of men into a mighty army of living men"?

It's no doubt a vision of future resurrection of unwanted bones into a useful mighty army. This indeed is not even debatable. you don't believe in the power of God to resurrect an army?... I , sure as heaven, do....

It is a vision of Israel being NO MORE........Then LIVING AGAIN. You guys way over-complicate these visions. This is about the Nation being NO MORE.................Then coming back to life. This is why there is only a Seven Headed Beast...........Without the British Empire or Ottoman Empire. There was no ISRAEL, now there is.

You can't see that there is a gap between the forming of the messianic era to the time of the final antichrist which is a period of about say 500 years ... that's ok, no worries

We are at the end. Jesus will reign a 1000 years. But that is after the Anti-Christ is defeated.

That's right but nonetheless try to understand that many are gonna be deceived when the false messiahs come as well as false prophets and the teachings of those days which cause many to fall away from the faith in the true messiah Jesus

That is not what Jesus said in this passage however. He stated IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, even the Elect would be deceived, BUT I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFOREHAND............Thus he is saying they will not be deceived.

The scriptures conserning Babylon have yet to be fulfilled... if you would not throw out rev 17 , 18 then you would agree ... buuutt noooo

That is because what I say is truth, Rev. 17 and 18 comes after Jesus defeats the Anti-Christ in Rev. 16....IT IS DONE. Its obvious. Rev. 17 and 18 are only MORE DETAILED Descriptions of those TWO EVENTS.

Yet Revelation 17,18 explains in further details of what was "done" in revelation 16 because Babylon is a key part of the falling of the nations which cause their destruction . Don't ask me to throw it out and dismiss it because I won't ...we are commanded not to and a severe punishment awaits those that do...

I am just pointing out (Remember the original talking point) that the book of Revelation OVERLAPS. Thus Rev. 17 is the Harlot being destroyed and since the Harlot is FALSE RELIGION, that has to happen at the same time the Anti-Christ makes his move against the Temple of God !! Use logic man. He comes against ALL RELIGIONS, because he DEMANDS TO BE WORSHIPED as the ONLY GOD !! He destroys Islam and all religions at this same time, thus it happens at the MID-WAY POINT, thus Rev. chapters 6 and 7 is when Rev. 17 takes place.

Same with Rev. 18, that is only the PLAGUES OF GOD coming against Babylon. (Nations that come against Israel) and the Seal/Trumpets and Vials of God are happening LONG BEFORE Rev. 18, as a matter of fact they END in Rev. 16. IT IS DONE.

Well lets just say you can't see what's clearly written.

Yet Revelation 17,18 explains in further details of what was "done" in revelation 16 because Babylon is a key part of the falling of the nations which cause their destruction . Don't ask me to throw it out and dismiss it because I won't ...we are commanded not to and a severe punishment awaits those that do...

No one asked anyone to throw it out, I wrote a whole exegesis on what Chapter 17 means. Again, I am saying that Revelation OVERLAPS. It is not a book that flows in sequence.

 

[dfw69]

The Bible doesn't say that. It says the CITY (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts. This is called SOLVING PUZZLES by using logic. What is the City ? Well, in Vial 6 they Gathered the Nations unto Armageddon, which is in Israel, now where does Jesus land ? In Zechariah 14 we see that he lands on the Mt. of Olives (in Jerusalem) just before destroying the Nations that come against Israel.

Revelation 16:19 reveals 3 things when the earthquake takes place
1) Jerusalem divided into 3 parts
2) the cities of the Gentiles collapsed
3) Babylon collapsed

SO......The City that is divided is Jerusalem, and we understand the Dead Sea will be Dead no longer, the Mountain will split into. So the CITY is Jerusalem, not some fictional Babylon somewhere. You guys just don't seem to be able to put all the verses together, you have to cross reference all the verses to get to the truth.

Restoring ancient Iraqi city of Babylon to former glory

If Saddam, when he was alive was able to rebuild on its ruins then don't knock the possibility of a city that may become a future tourist attraction

All is needed is a fund of money or some corporate giant who wishes to build there or perhaps someone will find resources such as gold or oil that will make the land precious

The Cities of the Nations are THOSE GATHERED AGAINST ISRAEL at Armageddon, which is mentioned in VIAL 6, so they are destroyed, and God remembers Babylon, and thus destroys the Anti-Christ, the 10 Nations and the Kings of the East. After this, IT IS DONE....There is nothing left. These are BABYLON.

I understand what u are saying , but I'm sorry, I don't bye it.

The 10 kingdoms are gonna come against the whoredom of Babylon then accept the beast to worship a man as God and persecute Israel and God will destroy the cities of the nations as well as the armies that have gather on mt meggido

And the beast and false prophet will be the first to be cast into the land of fire

Reread what I said.......Israel rebuilds the Temple, thinking they need animal sacrifices. Elijah returns and preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ being Israel's Savior, Israel REPENTS and ACCEPTS Jesus and the immediately STOP THE SACRIFICIAL OFFERINGS, and start worshiping Jesus and thus make offering of PRAYER and REPENTANCE. Then the Anti-Christ comes in and defiles the Temple. Think about it, how can the Anti-Christ defile a Temple that is not worshiping Jesus at the time he overtakes it ? Any Temple sacrificing animals when Jesus has already paid the PRICE for our Sins, is already DEFILED....Jesus has to be being Worshiped in order for the Temple to be defiled.

I believe Israel false messiah will rebuild the temple
"he who comes in his own name" that Jesus prophecied would come will rebuild greater Israel and there will be a false messianic age and Babylon will be rebuilt as well in the land of shinar and the final antichrist will be born in Babylon.... his name will be lucifer and he and his false prophet will seek to take over the already established messianic age

God will allow this man to rise up as punishment for their rebellion. Because they reject Jesus and sought to establish the messianic era by force..., perhaps the Zionist government will have a hand in it . A sort of self fulfilled prophecies

Well lets just say you can't see what's clearly written.

Lol....Whatever

Good debate ..thanks , but I think I'm "done" and " it is finished" ...so agree to disagree.... peace