what is your definition of secular?

[mr maph]

please tell me wht is your definition of secular music?

this is a really interesting question.
give me your best.

thanks

mr maph

 

[allykelly07]

Hello Mr Maph. Secular music is anything that is not a sweet sound in the Lords ear. Do not listen to people when they say: if the singer is a christian it's ok. But it's not, because we are here to worship the Lord with our life, and when we sing it should be a sweet sound in His ears. Secular music is also in the christian category, because many singers think that you can be and sing exactly like the world, but if it has a christian label, it's good and somehow glorifying to God. We are NOT to be like the world in anyway. We can say we are christians till our last breath, but, are our actions lining up with what we say? We can dance to some hip hop sounding music and call it Christian, but who are we really glorifying and does that ever put us in a worshipful attitude? I used to listen to so called "christian" hip hop and rap music, but I soon realized that, it really brings out peoples flesh and distracts from the One we are supposed to be focused on. I hope you will read the word and find out for yourself what it means to be a follower of Christ, and not be like the world in anyway.
James 5:13
Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise.

In Christ,
Rachel

 

[mr maph]

i respect your opinion and view.
But i have seen so many people coe to God through christian rap being from the ghetto in london. Some of those people he told to let go of the rap and they are not into rap anymore as a spirit was getting them into it and some he told keep on rapping but changed their words and spirit as they were genuinely talented to do this.
I think that as long as God is leading you to do something it's ok.
thanks again, i appreciate your lengthy response.
God Bless

 

[Willing Spirit]

If you go by dictionary definitions of the term "secular", it mostly refers to things that are temporal and not to do with religious or eternal spiritual matters.

If we define "secular" by the dictionary, it should be clearly seen that it isn't necessarily something that the Lord is displeased with. Marriage for example is a temporal thing of this earth, and is thus secular. There will be no marriage (wives and husbands) in heaven, according to the clear teaching of Jesus. Yet God is the one who created this temporal (secular) thing called marriage.

As for secular music, this is simply music that is focused on temporal things and not eternal spiritual matters. Some songs of this type are even in the bible. There is for example the Song of Solomon, an entire song devoted to erotic married love, without one reference to Jesus or God. Another example is found in 2 Samuel 1: 19-27, a song of lament over the death of Saul, without one reference to God or anything directly spiritual. Neither of these biblical songs are worship to the Lord, yet they have their place.

It should be understood that the category "secular music" is pretty wide ranging. On one side of the spectrum, it can be something totally innocent like singing "Happy Birthday", or it can be something totally pornographic or glorifying greed, etc. So it can be good or bad, depending on the content or nature of the music.

If one rejects absolutely all secular music, than to be consistent it would make sense to also reject all secular books, secular magazines, secular poetry, secular movies, etc. Yet this consistency is rare. Usually there is one standard for music, but a different standard for other types of art or expression. They might talk about watching out for the lifestyle of the music performer, yet they don't worry about the lifestyle of the weather man on television or an actor in a movie.

Now I'll admit there are certain types of music and even some Christian music that I take issue with. There are certain types of music that are totally based on trying to sound sinister and evil, that remind me of encounters I have had with evil spirits. I don't think this music is the best match for Christian lyrics for that reason. So I think there are certain lines that can be crossed in Christian music.

But if we reject all Christian music that has some kind of secular or non-Christian root, there will be almost nothing that you can listen to. You would even have to reject Handel's Messiah, because of it's ties to operatic style (a secular based genre). The innocent Sunday school song "Jesus Loves The Little Children" would have to be thrown out, because the melody is borrowed from the secular marching song "Tramp, Tramp, Tramp, The Boys Are Marching". The familiar melody for "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" is taken from a secular song about printing press, so you wouldn't be able to sing that. All the old gospel hymns, all southern gospel, all classical music, and almost all music on earth would have to be rejected for having some kind of connection to secular or non-Christian music.

 

[markb77]

Hello Mr Maph. Secular music is anything that is not a sweet sound in the Lords ear. Do not listen to people when they say: if the singer is a christian it's ok. But it's not, because we are here to worship the Lord with our life, and when we sing it should be a sweet sound in His ears. Secular music is also in the christian category, because many singers think that you can be and sing exactly like the world, but if it has a christian label, it's good and somehow glorifying to God. We are NOT to be like the world in anyway. We can say we are christians till our last breath, but, are our actions lining up with what we say? We can dance to some hip hop sounding music and call it Christian, but who are we really glorifying and does that ever put us in a worshipful attitude? I used to listen to so called "christian" hip hop and rap music, but I soon realized that, it really brings out peoples flesh and distracts from the One we are supposed to be focused on. I hope you will read the word and find out for yourself what it means to be a follower of Christ, and not be like the world in anyway.
James 5:13
Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise.

In Christ,
Rachel

While I acknowledge your opinion, it strikes me as very judgemental. If rap music "brings out the flesh" in you, then please don't listen to it. But dont' assume it does the same in everyone else. We're all different, and music means something different to everyone who listens to it.

 

[Look Up]

"Secular" stands in opposition to "sacred," and in my understanding can have either a neutral or negative connotation depending on use. Thus the subject matter of "secular" implies the non-religious or that which is not specifically so. "Sacred" depends in part on the religion. Applied to music one might refer to a Hindu song in praise of the god Vishnu as a "sacred" song. A song based on the legend of John Henry the railroad hammer man may be considered "secular" in that the subject matter does not relate to God.

Of course the lines can be blurred. We humans seem capable of making an idol out of just about anything. One could argue that the great John Henry takes on some attributes of a demigod. Or we can make an idol in the heart of a favorite music piece.

Or one could argue as most probably would that the John Henry song is purely secular--nothing more than a tall tale vaguely representative of workers in a bygone and nostalgic era of rail building in the US. Or some might argue that a song about the god Vishnu (if not taken seriously as worship but rather as secular observation of culture) merely represents a celebration about a seasonal Indian festivity. (And even if I'm not using the best illustration, hopefully the idea in principle is sound. Are jack-o-lanterns at Halloween nowadays really used in sacred fashion to ward off evil spirits or are they purely secular?)

The lines between "secular" and "sacred," in other words, may be drawn in terms of the lyrics themselves (the subject matter) or in terms of the way the listener interprets and uses them, especially where the lyrics lend themselves to poetic license, as not uncommonly. Hence another source of blurring in the lines between "secular" and "sacred."

But I think allykelly07 does Christians a service at least in raising the issue of the use of music in the worship of the true and living God. Certainly my fear is that God is not worshiped according to His worth (by me and by others), partly because ostensibly sacred lyrics migrate into the profane (or theologically obtuse or dubious or ambiguous). Or because our hearts aren't in worship (there's the interpretation and use).

And if neutral "secular" music can be used to please God as I think at times or in certain cases it can be (cf. Phil. 4:8), human hearts can use or abuse secular music in similar fashion. Whatsoever the Christian does must be for the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31).

Whether musical style can rightly be reckoned secular or sacred is often rather foggy. Probably in large and highly religious contexts a certain style may come to be associated in the popular mind with the sacred (as a certain tune with its lyrics), but in culturally diverse urban centers in the West (and perhaps Singapore, Rio, and other places), contextual clues may be harder to interpret well.

Is it then possible to experience emotional elation in music which is purely secular in nature? Actually, I'm not sure I'd want to say, "yes," though at present I'm also not sure how to argue that point further. Can we utterly divorce experiencing a colorful sunset to the accompaniment of what we consider uplifting and romantic music (say without words) from the Maker of beauty?

 

[allykelly07]

While I acknowledge your opinion, it strikes me as very judgemental. If rap music "brings out the flesh" in you, then please don't listen to it. But dont' assume it does the same in everyone else. We're all different, and music means something different to everyone who listens to it.

I would hope that you don't acknowledge my opinion, but rather the truth of the word of God above everyones including your own. I know by the Spirit, and I have been to many so called "christian rap" concerts, I am yet to see anyone convicted and lifting their hands in true worship to God in those moments. No one can be alert in those circumstances, (as the word says we are to be alert). You can't hear anything to say the least, and the words are what is supposed to edify us. The word of God says:
James 1:27
27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Almost every Christian artist has taken the worldly ways of singing, and just put it to their own lyrics about God. This is not keeping oneself from being corrupted by the world.

 

[Look Up]

... I have been to many so called "christian rap" concerts, I am yet to see anyone convicted and lifting their hands in true worship to God in those moments. No one can be alert in those circumstances, (as the word says we are to be alert). You can't hear anything to say the least, and the words are what is supposed to edify us.
...

Almost every Christian artist has taken the worldly ways of singing, and just put it to their own lyrics about God. This is not keeping oneself from being corrupted by the world.

The history of the people of God suggests varied and prevalent inclinations to (in Apostle John's terminology) worldly thought and action. And similar to my previous comment, I have been disappointed at various times with the theology in the lyrics of--in my experience--hymns and choruses. Usually it is, "this part is OK, that part is ... theological obtuse, dubious, ambiguous, wrong headed. I just don't have experience with Christian rap.

Unfortunately I don't know what Scripture passage and context to which you allude using the word "alert" (1 Peter 4:7? 5:8?), but my guess is your/the Scripture's point is what constitutes an exhortation to be aware enough to distinguish between morally good and bad thoughts and actions. Sometimes the concept is coupled with exhortation to prayer (Matt. 26:41, Eph. 6:18)--pray that we might not heedlessly walk into temptation, pray that we and others might be alert to moral distinctions.

I am reminded of Paul's desire to pray and sing not only in his spirit, but also with his mind (1 Cor. 14:15) ... in context of the impossibility of understanding tongues without the gift of interpretation or act of an interpreter in church assembly context.

Now as to the rap concerts, your description and the human tendency to spiritual and moral failure (Jesus citing Isaiah says something about God being close to the lips, but far from the heart) makes your inference of faulty worship plausible enough in the aggregate even where not necessarily the case in any given individual.

It also raises questions (well, at least in my mind for purposes of this thread) of the possibility for the Christian of enjoying secular music in a way that pleases God. God does freely give many pleasures (e.g., food, socializing, sex within marriage, nature, pleasures in or related to one's work), and the Christian need not be condemned for pleasures s/he can thank God for ... of course given also the ethical framework of, for example, the Ten Commandments and Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

If enjoyment of the pleasures God gives is not necessarily wrong (certain pleasures not being wrong in themselves, but only as they may be twisted or abused by sinful people), is it possible Christian rap may legitimately be enjoyed even when the words are not understood (as I may enjoy an operatic aria in Latin or Italian, languages I do not know)?

Perhaps. If so, a remaining difficulty seems to be where confusion arises (lack of "alertness") about what one is doing in the concert: enjoying the music God gives and being thankful versus worshiping God in a particular spirit-and-mind way related to the lyrics and perhaps other contextual clues. And of course my experience would suggest careful analysis of the theology in the words would be warranted, as with all worship music.

But I think another issue may come to the fore in contexts like a rap music concert (and other cultural phenomena). We humans (for particular consideration here, Christians) tend to enjoy enjoyment enough to push it past the zone of self-control. Especially when "everybody else" is doing it, raising biblical warnings against causing others to stumble (drawn into sinning against conscience or divine law. In the "high" of seratonin and dopamine, we may worship with our spirit without our minds, that is in the case under consideration without worshiping God as He has directed or in accord with His nature.

But of course again, what goes on inside any given individual in the way of worship and enjoyment is usually more than I know.

 

[allykelly07]

The history of the people of God suggests varied and prevalent inclinations to (in Apostle John's terminology) worldly thought and action. And similar to my previous comment, I have been disappointed at various times with the theology in the lyrics of--in my experience--hymns and choruses. Usually it is, "this part is OK, that part is ... theological obtuse, dubious, ambiguous, wrong headed. I just don't have experience with Christian rap.

Unfortunately I don't know what Scripture passage and context to which you allude using the word "alert" (1 Peter 4:7? 5:8?), but my guess is your/the Scripture's point is what constitutes an exhortation to be aware enough to distinguish between morally good and bad thoughts and actions. Sometimes the concept is coupled with exhortation to prayer (Matt. 26:41, Eph. 6:18)--pray that we might not heedlessly walk into temptation, pray that we and others might be alert to moral distinctions.

I am reminded of Paul's desire to pray and sing not only in his spirit, but also with his mind (1 Cor. 14:15) ... in context of the impossibility of understanding tongues without the gift of interpretation or act of an interpreter in church assembly context.

Now as to the rap concerts, your description and the human tendency to spiritual and moral failure (Jesus citing Isaiah says something about God being close to the lips, but far from the heart) makes your inference of faulty worship plausible enough in the aggregate even where not necessarily the case in any given individual.

It also raises questions (well, at least in my mind for purposes of this thread) of the possibility for the Christian of enjoying secular music in a way that pleases God. God does freely give many pleasures (e.g., food, socializing, sex within marriage, nature, pleasures in or related to one's work), and the Christian need not be condemned for pleasures s/he can thank God for ... of course given also the ethical framework of, for example, the Ten Commandments and Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

If enjoyment of the pleasures God gives is not necessarily wrong (certain pleasures not being wrong in themselves, but only as they may be twisted or abused by sinful people), is it possible Christian rap may legitimately be enjoyed even when the words are not understood (as I may enjoy an operatic aria in Latin or Italian, languages I do not know)?

Perhaps. If so, a remaining difficulty seems to be where confusion arises (lack of "alertness") about what one is doing in the concert: enjoying the music God gives and being thankful versus worshiping God in a particular spirit-and-mind way related to the lyrics and perhaps other contextual clues. And of course my experience would suggest careful analysis of the theology in the words would be warranted, as with all worship music.

But I think another issue may come to the fore in contexts like a rap music concert (and other cultural phenomena). We humans (for particular consideration here, Christians) tend to enjoy enjoyment enough to push it past the zone of self-control. Especially when "everybody else" is doing it, raising biblical warnings against causing others to stumble (drawn into sinning against conscience or divine law. In the "high" of seratonin and dopamine, we may worship with our spirit without our minds, that is in the case under consideration without worshiping God as He has directed or in accord with His nature.

But of course again, what goes on inside any given individual in the way of worship and enjoyment is usually more than I know.

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Yes, God has taught me that "to the pure, all things are pure". But also that, "all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial." The word of God does say those things. So I do believe that what is in someones heart is what counts. But Since we should be conforming more and more to Christ daily, and being self controlled in the Spirit, we should be testing ourselves and our motives of why we do things, and if they are of God or not. If we are giving ourselves more completely to the Lord everyday, and sowing to the Spirit daily, we must realize that certain things we do, could have an affect on those who we are trying to reach. Quiet shockingly, I have realized that many people, actually listen to "christian" songs, not knowing that they have anything to do with God. That is pretty bad, knowing that (as you have said) the words should be of God and scriptural, and I believe the way it's played, should be distinctive from the way the world does. There is a worship of the heart and mind, but I believe that is referring to the scripture in Romans, saying: "In view of Gods mercy, offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." So, I believe what the word is saying here is that, until we are offering our bodies, and no longer conforming to the worlds pattern, and being transformed by the renewing of our mind, that we will not be able to test and approve what Gods will is. If we can't test what Gods will is until we do those things, then we will not be able to recognize what we should or shouldn't do, to be used more fully with outsiders. We should not by any means be conforming to the world, but conforming to Christ, and allowing Him to live His life through us, to save souls for His kingdom.

 

[Girder of Loins]

Secular music is any music of any genre not written or performed to the glory of God.

 

[WannaWitness]

I know some people may disagree, but true secular music, to me, contains lyrics that promote secular lifestyles and ungodly living, and sadly, there is a lot of this stuff that dominates the scene of our culture. HOWEVER... (yes, here is where some might have the problem), there is still a goodly amount of music (recorded by Christian and mainstream artists) that have decent lyrics that, while I can't really call it "Christian" music, can still be inspiring and promote good morals (for instance: Abraham, Martin, and John and Ebony and Ivory). Also, there are innocent "novelty songs" (like The Name Game and The Unicorn Song) that serve the purpose of providing happiness and good clean fun, and instrumentals with no lyrics that allow the listener to soak up the artistry of the music. I liken listening to such music as no different from watching a non-Christian (but moral) TV show or movie (such as The Brady Bunch, Leave it to Beaver, Full House, or any Shirley Temple movie).

That being said, Christian music is uplifting, but I actually see nothing wrong with listening to a mainstream tune, so long as it doesn't go against the Bible in the message it promotes.

 

[Look Up]

...Yes, God has taught me that "to the pure, all things are pure". But also that, "all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial." The word of God does say those things. So I do believe that what is in someones heart is what counts. But Since we should be conforming more and more to Christ daily, and being self controlled in the Spirit, we should be testing ourselves and our motives of why we do things, and if they are of God or not. If we are giving ourselves more completely to the Lord everyday, and sowing to the Spirit daily, we must realize that certain things we do, could have an affect on those who we are trying to reach. Quiet shockingly, I have realized that many people, actually listen to "christian" songs, not knowing that they have anything to do with God. That is pretty bad, knowing that (as you have said) the words should be of God and scriptural, and I believe the way it's played, should be distinctive from the way the world does. There is a worship of the heart and mind, but I believe that is referring to the scripture in Romans, saying: "In view of Gods mercy, offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." So, I believe what the word is saying here is that, until we are offering our bodies, and no longer conforming to the worlds pattern, and being transformed by the renewing of our mind, that we will not be able to test and approve what Gods will is. If we can't test what Gods will is until we do those things, then we will not be able to recognize what we should or shouldn't do, to be used more fully with outsiders. We should not by any means be conforming to the world, but conforming to Christ, and allowing Him to live His life through us, to save souls for His kingdom.

Your argument above seems to agree with my post to which the above is a response. Or at least I have no disagreement with what you write, above. I think we both value ethics above aesthetics (not that the latter is without importance), and discernment of ethical good/evil lines more important than secular/sacred ones.

Interestingly I think sacred/profane or clean/unclean lines in the law of Moses (e.g., regarding foods, contact with a dead body, separations of clothing material) pointed forward to and were intended to suggest and teach ethical good/evil distinctions.

 

[Wagonmaker]

Secular music is an expression of persons reflecting issues and interactions with oneself and/or of the world. It's a label, neither good or bad. The closest thing to its opposite would be sacred music, which is music directed toward God alone. There is so much beauty and edification in the way of an entire spectrum of music in between these two poles.

 

[allykelly07]

Your argument above seems to agree with my post to which the above is a response. Or at least I have no disagreement with what you write, above. I think we both value ethics above aesthetics (not that the latter is without importance), and discernment of ethical good/evil lines more important than secular/sacred ones.

Interestingly I think sacred/profane or clean/unclean lines in the law of Moses (e.g., regarding foods, contact with a dead body, separations of clothing material) pointed forward to and were intended to suggest and teach ethical good/evil distinctions.

Sorry it might have seemed that I was disagreeing with you, but I thought what you said was correct in the response that I had responded to earlier. But, I don't understand what you mean about the whole "good/evil more important than secular/sacred. Is that not the same thing? Secular is evil, since we are told not to be like the world.


Well, Paul said: "the law is spiritual". So because of that, when I read the Old Testament, the Spirit makes me think of it as the way we are supposed to be towards God in our hearts. For example.... When the Law says: do not commit adultery, Christ said, even if you look at a woman to lust after her you have committed adultery in your heart already. Also, it says do not murder, Christ said, if you even hate your brother, you have murdered Him in your heart. etc. What is in someones heart is the same thing as doing it outwardly, to God. God says that He does not look at what man looks at, because He looks at the heart. This is why we must die to our old nature, and live by the Spirit so that we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds, and the new man which is the Spirit, comes into us, and we have a new heart, mind, and a choice to sow to please the new nature, and die to the old. So, according to the word of God, I believe everything is an issue of the heart, because of verses like these:

Matthew 15:10-20
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’”

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’”

 

[If Not For Grace]

Secular music is anything that is not a sweet sound in the Lords ear

the Lord Loves a Joyful Noise. God is not an American. Drums were the first instruments not harps...How people perceive music has alot to do with operant conditioning. You yourself talk about the heart-it is the intent of the music. Music is like fire..it warms and burns and it's how you use it. Take the song Precious Memories, for some this is secular and about clinging to things for others it is spiritual and rememberance of reverant ways. The same can be said of Rock and Roll Jesus.

Music is neutral. The lyrics may be a different matter, so these should be examined, but if it edifies, motivates or inspires or relaxes it is certainly in line with christian morals. Amazing Grace is the same song whether played slowly or fast or bluesy or hip hop or rocked.

Dancing is not evil. David danced in the streets...It is the motive or heart and generally that of the listener more than the artist. Each individual should examine himself, but just because music is secular does not make it unsuitable for a christian any more so than a book written on a subject of life or fiction would be unsuitable reading. Content should be judged on a case by case basis. God gave us all emotions, it is how we use them that matter. Music is the language of emotion.

 

[Look Up]

I don't understand what you mean about the whole "good/evil more important than secular/sacred. Is that not the same thing? Secular is evil, since we are told not to be like the world.

One of my starting points in addressing the OP is to try to come to grips with the ways the word "secular" is used by speakers of the English language. See my post # 6 on this thread. And I think it is used in different ways. So is the opposing word "sacred"--which as I had suggested by itself need not imply Christianity, but could include other religions.

To illustrate what I meant by the word "secular" in the comment of mine which you question as in the above citation, a speaker of English might say, "I have a secular job as an engineer" or "the song "'Mary had a Little Lamb' is secular."

In the first case, a distinction is implied to the effect that, for example, pastors and church choir directors have sacred jobs (because the subject matter of the job has to do with religion and God) whereas butchers, bakers, and candle stick makers (and engineers) have "secular" jobs because the subject matter of their jobs is (generally) outside religious institutions and apart from direct and public identification with God.

And in the second case, the subject matter of "Mary had a Little Lamb" is not overtly religion or God.

Whether or not "secular" jobs and songs can be used in ways that please the Lord is simply another question which a neutral use of the word "secular" does not address. But such a neutral use of the word "secular" is less important, I had argued in effect and in part, than what is ethically good or evil.

Of course the word "secular" can have a negative connotation as I had written, and as far as I am concerned one kind of negative use is intended to suggest there is some corner of the universe where God has no authority or influence. God is forbidden to enter or join the secular tree house club, as it were. To me, "secular" in this case may be equated with a moral evil, with the "anti-sacred" using the word "sacred" in a Christian sense. Or the word "secular" may embrace vice of one sort or another.

It just depends on how the word "secular" is used. But again ethical good and evil is a more important distinction than "subject matter having to do narrowly with religion or not."

 

[Look Up]

Music is neutral. The lyrics may be a different matter, so these should be examined, but if it edifies, motivates or inspires or relaxes it is certainly in line with christian morals. Amazing Grace is the same song whether played slowly or fast or bluesy or hip hop or rocked.
...

God gave us all emotions, it is how we use them that matter. Music is the language of emotion.

On a previous post on this thread, I had argued that pegging what you call music style (as distinct from lyrics or sung words) as secular or sacred is notoriously difficult--and how much more meaning. Probably you are correct. "Music [or melody and tone in music] is neutral," generally speaking.

But is it always? I remember Jimmy Hendrix playing "The Star Spangled Banner" on an electric guitar. No words, no accompaniment, just electric guitar. Now the musical score is associated in the popular mind with American patriotism because of the history of the musical piece and its use.

The odd or creative addition to Hendrix's playing here, however, was the incorporation of sounds adeptly mimicking those of (modern) falling and exploding bombs. But the historical context of Hendrix's performance was not British "bombs bursting in air" in an all night attack shelling an American colonial fortress as per the setting the song celebrates ... but the Vietnam War in which Americans bombed (were at the time bombing) the Vietnamese.

Without words (but with clear contextual clues), Jimmy Hendrix played "The Star Spangled Banner" turning the context of patriotic fervor into a war protest against the US. The music (or notes played) was not neutral, and had a word-like quality as a war protest.

Other music wordlessly mimics the song of birds, the peeling of bells, and other known phenomena. Franz Lizst's "Totentanz" (German for "Dance of the Dead") more or less follows Goethe's poem of the same name in playful and imaginative mimicry of bones knocking together and wind whistling and whirling spectres in energetic dances. All without words, played on a piano.

Of course interpretation is still dangerous, especially where ambiguity lies, but I think sometimes (apart-from-words) music is not "neutral" in meaning or even ethics.

I am sometimes amazed at how in movies the background musical score fits the scene like a glove, lending itself to the force of meaning or even clarifying ambiguity. The same may be said for audiovisual advertisements (gasp!), especially given certain contextual, culture-specific clues (although some may be more broadly applicable). And what about political propaganda?

Certainly music has or can have a powerful influence on our emotions and therefore thoughts and actions even if I for one am usually frustrated at any attempt to define the word-equivalent meaning of a particular piece.

And such specificity appears to be unnecessary--to movie and audiovisual and audio advertisement makers, for example. Cognitive audiovisual content may lend itself to particular emotions (anger, fear, lust, envy, pride, joy). Marketers tell us we buy based on emotion, then we rationalize the purchase logically.

If the musical tones stimulate emotional overlap with that implied in this audiovisual or audio content, the message is amplified or, as I suggested, even partially directed. Music or tonal "language" (the "language of emotion" as you aptly phrased it) can and in many cases does influence our beliefs, choices, and thoughts.

It may at times even help (or hinder) us in drawing lines between secular and sacred or good and evil. This is not to say we are likely to be deceived by clear contradiction between the facts of the movie scene and a clashing emotion implied by the background music. But where more subtle balances can be tipped, let the buyer (of the producer's agenda) beware!

 

[Willing Spirit]

Almost every Christian artist has taken the worldly ways of singing

Such as the operatic style of singing? Can you give me an example of a Christian artist you consider to not have a worldly way of singing?

Secular is evil, since we are told not to be like the world.

So your saying the familiar music of "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" and "Jesus Loves The Little Children" is evil, since the melodies are taken from secular songs? I doubt you think these songs are evil, but if you apply your logic to all secular music, than this music is evil, since it is taken from secular music.

It's possible you missed my first post, right near the very beginning of this thread. In that post I gave two examples of songs in the bible that are secular and not worship songs. Doesn't this have any significance? If even the bible has songs of a secular/non-worship nature, why do you keep insisting that all secular music is evil and that all music must be worship? From my perspective that goes against the bible, even though I believe it is your intention to live by biblical standards.

 

[allykelly07]

Such as the operatic style of singing? Can you give me an example of a Christian artist you consider to not have a worldly way of singing?



So your saying the familiar music of "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" and "Jesus Loves The Little Children" is evil, since the melodies are taken from secular songs? I doubt you think these songs are evil, but if you apply your logic to all secular music, than this music is evil, since it is taken from secular music.

It's possible you missed my first post, right near the very beginning of this thread. In that post I gave two examples of songs in the bible that are secular and not worship songs. Doesn't this have any significance? If even the bible has songs of a secular/non-worship nature, why do you keep insisting that all secular music is evil and that all music must be worship? From my perspective that goes against the bible, even though I believe it is your intention to live by biblical standards.

Anything that is not worshipful, brings out the flesh. How can you worship God if you are singing songs that are not directed towards Him? If you are listening to music that is not worshiping God, then you are listening to it to please the flesh.

What songs are in the Bible that are not praising God? They are all to praise God. Singing and making music to God. We are not to be like the world in the way we sing, nor in the words that we sing. I have seen many people, when they come to the faith, they are immediately convicted about what kind of music they listen to, and get rid of it. But slowly, they begin to think, well it's ok to just listen to this, because it sounds like what I used to listen to, and it's christian. So they get the best of both worlds. But we should be discerning by the Spirit, what is worshipful, and what is useful for building up the new man, not sowing to the flesh. The Bible does not say, that we should do anything that is not worshiping or giving glory to Him, and Him alone.

Colossians 3:16-18
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

 

[Willing Spirit]

Anything that is not worshipful, brings out the flesh.

That's not true. The Happy Birthday song is a perfect example of something that isn't a worship song, yet it hardly brings out the flesh (sinful nature) and it in no way conflicts with being a worshiper of God in your heart.

How can you worship God if you are singing songs that are not directed towards Him?

Very easily. Worship is a way of life and state of heart, even when your not outwardly singing a worship song or bowing in worship.

What songs are in the Bible that are not praising God? They are all to praise God. Singing and making music to God.

Please read post #4, which I wrote earlier. I specifically referred to two biblical songs in the bible that clearly don't praise God. This includes Song Of Solomon, which is obviously a love song, with no reference to God or anything of a religious nature (thus secular by dictionary definition). The second example I gave is from 2 Samuel 1: 19-27, which is a song of lament over the death of Saul, without one reference to God or anything directly spiritual (thus a secular song by dictionary definition). As close as this second song gets to spiritual content, is its reference to "the uncircumcised" (which has spiritual significance in the bible). Read it for yourself. It obviously isn't a worship song or a song of praise to God, but it doesn't conflict with being a worshiper of God either, as some songs do.

Now, it's true that the bible says to sing "hymns", which refers to "songs of praise" (not the modern use of the word "hymn"). But the bible clearly does not limit us to Only sing songs of praise, or psalms and spiritual songs.

We are not to be like the world in the way we sing

Like the operatic style of singing? Do you believe the opera way of singing is worldly? And again I ask, can you give me one example of a Christian artist you believe to sing in a unworldly way? If your saying absolutely all secular music is evil, this means the music of Hark the Herald Angels Sing and Jesus Loves the Little Children is also evil for taking it's music from the secular? I'm repeating myself here, but you went around those questions earlier.

I have seen many people, when they come to the faith, they are immediately convicted about what kind of music they listen to, and get rid of it.

Yes, and this is good. But there is a difference between someone getting rid of music, due purely to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, as opposed to someone getting rid of music because some pastor said all rock music is evil, or all music with a minor key is sinful, etc.

Earlier this year I got rid of certain Christian music in my own selection, because of things that were revealed to me about the music (something I wasn't aware of before). It had nothing to do with what some youth pastor said in error about secular music and all modern music with a beat being worldly. Not all secular music (music about non-religious subjects) is evil, just as not all Christian music is good. Same with television. Not all secular tv shows are bad, and not all Christian tv is good.

Secular music is not synonomous with ungodly music, though there is a lot of overlap between the two.