What is wrong with self-interest?

[ApostateForGoodReason]

Looking through many of these threads I've seen several references to "selfishness" or "selfish desires" that seem out of place. I am not naive; I am well aware that people can be selfish; however, it seems that posters use this terminology only to describe actions they do not agree with. This fails to acknowledge that most decisions (I believe anyways) come from a starting point of self interest. It is healthy and neccesary that we act this way and it only should become an issue if there are negative consequences to others that are not being addressed.

Why are some acting as if they are standing on the pedestal of self-lessness? Why are others' choices more selfish than your own? This isn't about whether or not they are making the best choice available; it is about why should you condemn another for selfishness when their self-interest does not exceed your own and there is no proof of negative consequence for another human being, the environment, or society as a whole.

Please - I'd like to understand. What is truly selfish or selfless to you? Why?

 

[Everlasting33]

Like with anything, there needs to be a happy medium between selfishness and selflessness. In my family, vocalizing one's needs and preferences was characterized as "selfish" and this is obviously untrue and unfair. I believe a lot of people grow up with this mentality.

Remember, healthy relationships revolve around giving and receiving. Everyone is going to be selfish at times and selfless in other situations. But, we must make a priority to give. I believe there tends to be some type of fear in selfishness; the need or desire to be in control or lavished upon.

Sometimes, people are constantly selfish because they do not want to be taken advantage of and do not trust any longer. There are many reasons for selfishness but nearly all lead to misery and dissatisfaction.

I believe the goal in many people's lives is to help others and to give. I find it admirable for people, like Mother Teresa who dedicated most of her life to self-sacrifice and humble giving of many things. There is joy and peace found in it.

And sometimes:
“You can't get unless you give. And you have to give without wanting to get.” http://thinkexist.com/quotes/sent-by/karynn/http://thinkexist.com/quotes/sent-by/karynn/

Theodore H. White

 

[sk8Joyful]

Looking through many of these threads I've seen several references to "selfishness" or "selfish desires" that seem out of place.
I am not naive; I am well aware that people can be selfish; however, it seems that posters use this terminology
only to describe actions they do not agree with. This fails to acknowledge that most decisions (I believe anyways) come from a starting point of self interest. It is healthy and neccesary that we act this way and it only should become an issue if there are negative consequences to others that are not being addressed.

Why are some acting as if they are standing on the pedestal of self-lessness? Why are others' choices more selfish than your own? This isn't about whether or not they are making the best choice available; it is about why should you condemn another for selfishness when their self-interest does not exceed your own and there is no proof of negative consequence for another human being, the environment, or society as a whole.

Please - I'd like to understand. What is truly selfish or selfless to you? Why?

GOD/Jesus Christ is both selfish, & selfless:
He is selfish in that He wants each of his children *saved* in His family for eternity.
and
He is selfless, in that He has done all that He can do (safe for our final-resurrection), to give us this opportunity; now it is up to us

A pre-born baby is too both selfish, & selfless: he/she wants to both live joyfully , & love joyfully.
and
Each of us can continue... to live joyfully , & love joyfully. Is this what you meant?

 

[The Nihilist]

I doubt that unborn babies want anything at all

 

[Beanieboy]

If I get what I want, and don't care about how it harms you, I am selfish.

If I blare my stereo at 3am, and you tell me that you are working tomorrow, and could I keep it down, can you see the problem?

If I am making millions of dollars, but as a result, polluting the water that the town drinks, causing a rise in serious disease and death, what do I care? I have bottled water imported.

You see a old neighbor woman struggling with her groceries coming into the apartment building. You could help her, but what's in it for you? It's not like it's going to gain you anything. She sees you. You see her, and walk by, not caring.

That's selfishness. What's so wrong with it? The same as what is wrong with whining, throwing a tantrum when you don't get your way, grabbing stuff that isn't yours - you are nothing more than an adult version of a baby, a brat, a Veronica Saltz, and no one wants to be around you. No one likes to live in that world.

 

[sk8Joyful]

I doubt that unborn babies want anything at all

as a man, unable to nourish unborn babies within you, you could think that, unless you studied medical science also confirming such characteristics, and at increasingly younger stages of development

 

[ApostateForGoodReason]

Interesting responses; however my point was more that all sentient beings routinely make decisions in their self-interest; whether they are moral or not, beneficial or not. I don't believe in selflessness - therefore I don't believe in condemning others for selfishness - unless they are doing measurable harm to other humans, the environment or society.

Example: I plan to have children; likely in a very traditional type setting. I acknowledge this as basically selfish because I will do so based upon my wants/needs. Even if I am an awesome parent - my having kids is still selfish; there is no need for additional children to be born. I also think that a woman having an abortion is selfish - but no more selfish for not having the child than I am for having one.

We all do things for some kind of payoff. I don't just do volunteer work because of the need - I do it because it feels good to me. Same reason why I try to please my loved ones or uphold my moral code. While these choices are beneficial to more than just me...I do not ever consider them selfless.

Beanieboy is the only one I believe who gave examples extreme enough to be considered selfish.

So seriously, now that I have explained myself... do you see your own self-interest in your decisions? Even the moral ones? Can you give real examples of selflessness?

 

[Beanieboy]

Ayn Rand wrote about the virtues of selfishness in The Fountainhead, and I agree. If I donate $10,000 to the University of Toronto, and they thank me by naming a building The Beanieboy Conservatory, and I get a huge tax cut as a result, and am honored among the faculty and city, isn't that selfish?

If I spend a lot of time studying to get a good education, isn't that selfish? Isn't eating selfish?

She illustrates this by a woman who works in Social Service. The pay is low, the work is hard, she spends a lot of time with people who are unemployed, jaded, trying to offer them deadend jobs, trying to help them with welfare that barely covers basic expenses. She says, "I can't believe how ungrateful these people are!" The problem was that she wasn't doing it to be altruistic. She was doing it to be thanked by people that are going through very hard times, while she returns to her nice home, knows she has a stable job, and none of the difficulties they face. She wants to be thought of as a good person.

If she really wanted to simply help, she wouldn't ask for anything in return, including thanks. Helping would be its own reward.

Rand then points out that usually, that those who ask for sacrifice, such as the church, imply that someone is on the receiving end, and furnishing the church in gold.

Caring for the self, wanting a child, educating yourself, is not "selfish" to be, but rather, loving the self. According to the bible, Christians are called to love their neighbor as themselves, and if the person isn't loving themselves, it's hard to know how to love others.

The selfish that most speak up is more malicious, a poison that we know from childhood. One person has 2 lbs of licorice, brings it out in front of the other kids. The other kids see it, and ask for some. The kid with the licorice says no, that it is his, and he doesn't have to share. That's true, but bringing it out in front of the other kids, as a point to show that he had something that they wanted, and couldn't have, to make himself look better, actually does the opposite. The heart of the child is hurt, confused, why someone would bring out the licorice, have way more than enough, know that you want some, and not give it to you in spite, in maliciousness, enjoying how hurt you feel, how angry you feel, and not caring.

There is no valor in that.

 

[yguy]

Looking through many of these threads I've seen several references to "selfishness" or "selfish desires" that seem out of place. I am not naive; I am well aware that people can be selfish; however, it seems that posters use this terminology only to describe actions they do not agree with. This fails to acknowledge that most decisions (I believe anyways) come from a starting point of self interest.

What I think is being missed here is that we all have two selves: the real one and the unseen evil one.

It is healthy and neccesary that we act this way and it only should become an issue if there are negative consequences to others that are not being addressed.

The problem being that selfishness blinds us to our culpability for those consequences.

 

[Beanieboy]

I don't think selfishness blinds us at all. We are very aware of the consequences, and our culpability. Selfishness just makes us not care for anyone other than ourselves, or even delight in the fact that flaunting what we have in front of others exalts us and makes the other feel bad, and enjoys it.

 

[yguy]

I don't think selfishness blinds us at all.

Not even to the consequences to ourselves of doing wrong?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Looking through many of these threads I've seen several references to "selfishness" or "selfish desires" that seem out of place. I am not naive; I am well aware that people can be selfish; however, it seems that posters use this terminology only to describe actions they do not agree with. This fails to acknowledge that most decisions (I believe anyways) come from a starting point of self interest. It is healthy and neccesary that we act this way and it only should become an issue if there are negative consequences to others that are not being addressed.

Why are some acting as if they are standing on the pedestal of self-lessness? Why are others' choices more selfish than your own? This isn't about whether or not they are making the best choice available; it is about why should you condemn another for selfishness when their self-interest does not exceed your own and there is no proof of negative consequence for another human being, the environment, or society as a whole.

Please - I'd like to understand. What is truly selfish or selfless to you? Why?

I would definitely differentiate between "selfishness" and "self interest", for being UNselfish may very well be in your best self-interest in many situations, all things considered.

The term "selfishness" is mostly applied to people who break the unwritten rules of equity. People who, for all practical purposes, act unfairly towards others. As a social species, we naturally act resentful towards such individuals, as they violate the very principles that make a peaceful and productive co-existence possible. (Our species is not alone in this, I might add. You can observe exactly the same in other species that live in social groups.)
Thus, selfish behaviour (in the colloquial sense) ultimately runs contrary to your best self-interest, as your immediate short-time gain will very likely not compensate for the damaged inter-personal relations that may result from it.

Are you, by any chance, familiar with game theory?
Here's an experiment that pretty much demonstrates how Man tends to "tick" in this regard - and it pretty much disproves the notion that all we think about is ourselves.

You and another player form a team. I hand one of you a hundred dollars, and you may then decide how great a share you want to give to your partner. S/he, in turn, has to approve of the share and accept it, or else neither of you will receive anything.

Now, according to classic economical ideology, you'd give one dollar to your partner. And he will accept said dollar, because one is better than nothing.

That's not how it works in real life, however. Chances are that you will offer him approximately half of the share - and he will expect just that, or else punish you for acting asocially by denying you the money; even if it means that he doesn't receive anything, either.

 

[ApostateForGoodReason]

Beanieboy - yes, true "selfishness" is malicious behavior, I'm just posing the question because that is not how it is used in this neighborhood...

 

[ApostateForGoodReason]

What I think is being missed here is that we all have two selves: the real one and the unseen evil one..

Not true, those of us who are not afraid to be honest with ourselves have 1 self. I know exactly what I am doing and why...

The problem being that selfishness blinds us to our culpability for those consequences.

I respectfully disagree. Typically when someone is truly acting selfishly, they have excuses and reasons handy as to why they are not responsible - they know their culpability - they are simply not interested in acknowledging it to others.

 

[yguy]

Not true, those of us who are not afraid to be honest with ourselves have 1 self.

Not unless you're saints.

I respectfully disagree. Typically when someone is truly acting selfishly, they have excuses and reasons handy as to why they are not responsible - they know their culpability -

but they're not aware of it, courtesy of the excuses you mention. Thus are they blind to their culpability.

they are simply not interested in acknowledging it to others.

Or themselves. Even if they congratulate themselves on having given somebody the shaft, they are blind to the fact that what they did unto others will eventually be done unto them.

 

[Beanieboy]

Not even to the consequences to ourselves of doing wrong?

No always. Do you think someone wearing Armani, laughing at someone else who can only afford clothes from Target, doesn't know that what they are doing is wrong? They know. They know that it hurts the other. They just don't care, and only care that they think it elevates them.

Wouldn't you agree? Or do you think they are completely ignorant of the fact that what they are doing is wrong? They are doing it because the know that it will hurt the other.

 

[yguy]

No always. Do you think someone wearing Armani, laughing at someone else who can only afford clothes from Target, doesn't know that what they are doing is wrong?

No, because it feels right, which is why they do it to begin with. The only way they know is if the object of their contempt reacts in such a way as to put them to shame.

They are doing it because the know that it will hurt the other.

Sure, but they don't see anything wrong with that, because they have unconsciously judged the other as deserving it...and the hell of it is, if the person reacts with impotent hostility, he justifies that judgment.

 

[Beanieboy]

People never do things out of selfishness knowing that it is wrong?
It is selfish to have an affair.
The person lies, is secretive, sneaks around, trying not to get caught, because he sees nothing wrong with it?
Then, why does he care about getting caught?

 

[allhart]

No, because it feels right, which is why they do it to begin with. The only way they know is if the object of their contempt reacts in such a way as to put them to shame.Sure, but they don't see anything wrong with that, because they have unconsciously judged the other as deserving it...and the hell of it is, if the person reacts with impotent hostility, he justifies that judgment.

"Feelings are chaotic" If you followed your feels with out logic, well. You wouldn't make out reality very well. If I, got up in the morning and didn't feel like working. Tried this for a couple of days. I wouldn't get very far. Along with that said; Kids are cruel in school etc and some people never grow up. Ha, but retards are to be made fun of, right. They have no self worth, Right! You are worth your weight in gold Chop up another to make yourself look worthy. How mature

This takes Logic or is the think tank anemic? Not enough wisdom to put knowledge in its equation properly. Tends to show the wrong sum of morals adding up?

 

[yguy]

People never do things out of selfishness knowing that it is wrong?

The knowledge is within them, but the act is a denial of that knowledge. They know but are not aware, and the act is a way to avoid that awareness.

That's why Christ said, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."