What Is Wrong With Idol Worship?

[arunma]

I agree with you. Idol worship is a no-no. In the words of my new favriot song, from the sound track of, " The Mighty Wind "

It's scary, but it's true
So do what the good book
Do what the good book
Do what the good book tells you too!

What's the Jewish opinion on Hindu idolatry?

 

[rahul_sharma]

and What's the Jewish and Christian opinion on Catholic Idolatry?

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Did he equate them with Infinite Shiva? Or He defined Idols as Holy symbols?

Pancharatra Agamas consider idols installed in accordance with scripture as archavataras, the only forms by which God is accessible.

According to Pancharatra, which is an authority to all Hindu schools, including advaita ( see what Shankara says of Pancharatra in his BSB 1.4.42), God takes five kinds of avatars.

1. Vibhava avatar, or the supreme manifestation called the Paravasudeva ( Brahman)

2. Vyuha avatar, the four forms of Vasudeva, Pradyumna, Sankarshana and Aniruddha.

3. Kala/desha avatar like Rama, Krishna etc.

4. Antaryami avatar, in which the Lord take avatar in each one of us, in our soul.

5. Archa avatar, or the idols. Saligrama is considered of of the avatar of Vishnu.

These are not just my views, but Pancharatra literature supports all these ideas. Indeed, idols consecreated in specific ways are cosndiered to be incarnation of the Lord.

These are Holy symbols ofcourse but not God. They will break one day. We will replace them with new Symbols. Holy place is more than symbol because of many reasons. God was incarnated in mathura, Shiva lingam of Ujjain is equal to Shiva as per scriptuers. Whereas Temple Shivlingam is just a holy symbol which will be replaced with new symbol sooner or later.

Can you replace the idol with anything you want? Any materials? There are well defined rules - just a point to show that there are just not symbolic or aids of concentration.

i don't agree. I have to see that verse which says this Idol is Krishna and is equal to Krishna rather than Holy Symbol.

What do you mean? The Lord is present everwhere, this is not Christianity.

God is active even without that symbol. Do you think Krishna will not listen your prayer if this activated holy symbol is missing?

Nope, the Lord does not interfere with your karma.........he will cease to be active for just prayers in all situations.

When you become sick, you got to a doctor right? Or do you just pray? Does Krishna hear everytime?

Similarly, Karma is a process in which the Lord does not interfere under any circumsatnce. Karmic rituals depend on idols and rituals, and they have their place even without attributing God to them.

Have you heard of Satyanayana Puja which is highly ritualistic? Do you know that it is very highly effacious in bringing about the harmony of husband and wife under the most difficult conditions? Do you really get the same effect by mere prayer to Krishna? The answer is NO. The simple fact is each of these puja and stuff transcend mere symbolism, and work with nature and Karma.

We are mere mortals subject to Karma. The Lord himself rarely interferes with your worldly affairs or your prayers. Krishna is the bestowever of moksha, but if you need to surmount worldly problems, he makes himself available to you in the form of idols and stuff, when you worship in specific ways. We cannot dilute everything, you know.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

What's the Jewish opinion on Hindu idolatry?

That depends..


-Do Hindus look at a Statue and pray to it, thinking it will grant them wisdom and/or power.

-These statues represent a phyiscal manifestation of the divine?

- Do these statues act as mediators between us and the divine?

If yes to any of those above, then it is what it is. Idolatry not to be practiced by Jews. However, if the Statues are there to remind Hindus of principles of their faith n such, like Catholic Statues, then, it's nothin.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

and What's the Jewish and Christian opinion on Catholic Idolatry?

As a Jew, I'm more worried about how you treat your fellow man then what you do in your sanctuary. I'd only concern myself with your relgious practice if you were seeking to convert to Judaism.

 

[arunma]

As a Jew, I'm more worried about how you treat your fellow man then what you do in your sanctuary. I'd only concern myself with your relgious practice if you were seeking to convert to Judaism.

Thanks. Actually, that's what I thought you'd say.

Of course as a Christian, I am concerned with the religious behavior of others, which is why I continue to assert that Hinduism is wicked on account of its practice of idol-worship.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Of course as a Christian, I am concerned with the religious behavior of others, which is why I continue to assert that Hinduism is wicked on account of its practice of idol-worship.

Don't get me wrong, I get worried too, but I think my finger wagging would be futile. Spiritualy perilious, of course. No matter how great of a wit, I think I have or Torah know-how, it's just about squat compared to about 5,000 years of Hindu Tradtion and Spirituality.

Pray for us all and let God sort us out?

 

[MAXX]

For me Statue or Image of Krishna is a beautiful symbol of Krishna. When i see statue of Krishna, my innocent child-like love towards infinite divine Krishna multiply many times. I never thought that Statue as Krishna himself or his manifestation or mediator between me and infinite Krishna.

 

[selwyn]

Pancharatra Agamas consider idols installed in accordance with scripture as archavataras, the only forms by which God is accessible.

According to Pancharatra, which is an authority to all Hindu schools, including advaita ( see what Shankara says of Pancharatra in his BSB 1.4.42), God takes five kinds of avatars.

1. Vibhava avatar, or the supreme manifestation called the Paravasudeva ( Brahman)

2. Vyuha avatar, the four forms of Vasudeva, Pradyumna, Sankarshana and Aniruddha.

3. Kala/desha avatar like Rama, Krishna etc.

4. Antaryami avatar, in which the Lord take avatar in each one of us, in our soul.

5. Archa avatar, or the idols. Saligrama is considered of of the avatar of Vishnu.

These are not just my views, but Pancharatra literature supports all these ideas. Indeed, idols consecreated in specific ways are cosndiered to be incarnation of the Lord.




Can you replace the idol with anything you want? Any materials? There are well defined rules - just a point to show that there are just not symbolic or aids of concentration.




What do you mean? The Lord is present everwhere, this is not Christianity.



Nope, the Lord does not interfere with your karma.........he will cease to be active for just prayers in all situations.

When you become sick, you got to a doctor right? Or do you just pray? Does Krishna hear everytime?

Similarly, Karma is a process in which the Lord does not interfere under any circumsatnce. Karmic rituals depend on idols and rituals, and they have their place even without attributing God to them.

Have you heard of Satyanayana Puja which is highly ritualistic? Do you know that it is very highly effacious in bringing about the harmony of husband and wife under the most difficult conditions? Do you really get the same effect by mere prayer to Krishna? The answer is NO. The simple fact is each of these puja and stuff transcend mere symbolism, and work with nature and Karma.

We are mere mortals subject to Karma. The Lord himself rarely interferes with your worldly affairs or your prayers. Krishna is the bestowever of moksha, but if you need to surmount worldly problems, he makes himself available to you in the form of idols and stuff, when you worship in specific ways. We cannot dilute everything, you know.

Mr. Theowne. Are you reading all these incoherent claims about idol worship up here? Are you the one who proclaimed out loud that idols are not considered as Gods in hinduism? You might want to read the incoherent claims up here and might want to re-evaluate your opinions about hinduic idol worship.

 

[Theowne]

What about it? Did you read what he said? Because it's quite different than the idols themselves being Gods, as you and certain others tend to think.

BTW selwyn, I've already said we should just ignore anything you say...you never make a clear argument (or don't have the mind capacity to understand, period), so I don't really see what is to be done with you.

 

[selwyn]

What about it? Did you read what he said?

Did you read what he said? Or do you even follow the vigorous clash of opinions between two self-contradictory claims of Sudharshan and Rahul in here?

Because it's quite different than the idols themselves being Gods, as you and certain others tend to think.

Oops. Is Krishna an incarnation according to hinduism? Are idols incarnations according to hinduism? Yes atleast according to Sudharshan here who seems to be claiming to quote even some hinduic literature in support of his claims?

BTW selwyn, I've already said we should just ignore anything you say...you never make a clear argument (or don't have the mind capacity to understand, period), so I don't really see what is to be done with you.

Oops. Could it be that you don't have the mind capacity or coherence in here to follow your own "guidelines" now that you have ended up ignoring your own "guidelines" and responded to what I said here? Or could it be that you are realizing now that I really have a point that you were forced to respond in here breaking your own "guideline" up here?

 

[MAXX]

Did you read what he said? Or do you even follow the vigorous clash of opinions between two self-contradictory claims of Sudharshan and Rahul in here?

Can't there be 2 or more denominations with different views? Haven't you read those posts by Catholic Kwel who blamed most of the Christians as threat to christianity and he posted verses of Bible to support his claims? On the other hand another Christian (karma2grace) posted verses from Bible and declared all 1 billion catholics as Non-Christians.

You mean to say all Christian denominations are exactly similar? There are Christian spiritist who post verses from Bible to support there claim that Bible infact teaches reincarnation. If you have time , try to read some inter-Christian discussions. Atleast after that you will think twice before calling (denominations of) another religion contradictory.

 

[selwyn]

Can't there be 2 or more denominations with different views? Haven't you read those posts by Catholic Kwel who blamed most of the Christians as threat to christianity and she posted verses of Bible to support his claims? On the other hand another Christian (karma2grace) posted verses from Bible and declared all 1 billion catholics as Non-Christians.
You mean to say all Christian denominations are exactly similar? There are Christian spiritist who post verses from Bible to support there claim that Bible infact teach reincarnation. If you have time , try to read some inter-Christian discussions. Atleast after that you will think twice before calling (denominations of) another religion contradictory.

Do you even understand the context of my questions to theowne in here? Theowne claimed assertively that hindus don't consider idols as gods as if it was a fact. Now a hindu in here seems to be proving theowne wrong through his claims about the hinduic divinity of idols. That is why I just suggested that Theowne might want to re-evaluate his opinion. Now what has this got to do with what you are ranting in here in the name of logic?

 

[Theowne]

Theowne claimed assertively that hindus don't consider idols as gods as if it was a fact. Now a hindu in here seems to be proving theowne wrong through his claims about the hinduic divinity of idols.

Again, I have read what he said, and I don't see your point. There is a difference between an idol which invokes the presence of God - and the idols themselves being physical Gods on their own. I have never come across a Hindu who considers the idol as it's own physical God, and I still have not, after reading his post.

Or could it be that you are realizing now that I really have a point that you were forced to respond in here breaking your own "guideline" up here?

I would think not, since I have been saying that for a while now. I don't see anything coming out of arguing with you, it's pretty pointless. You just run around corners and stick your tongue out at people randomly.

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Do you even understand the context of my questions to theowne in here? Theowne claimed assertively that hindus don't consider idols as gods as if it was a fact. Now a hindu in here seems to be proving theowne wrong through his claims about the hinduic divinity of idols. That is why I just suggested that Theowne might want to re-evaluate his opinion. Now what has this got to do with what you are ranting in here in the name of logic?

Different Hindus have slightly different opinions on this.

There is no need to consider an idol separately as a God, in Hinduism God is both the material and the instrumental cause. (atleast for most Hindus)

If you ask me if the idol is God, yes, it is. Is it identical to God - no, it is an attribute of God. More like waves in an ocean, not the ocean itself.

If you think the idol alone is God, you are foolish. If you understand idol to be an expression of divinity which is incomprehensible. that is wise. The idol, like you and me, are part and parcel of the infinite - nothing to be shunned or laughed at.

 

[Moros]

What Is Wrong With Idol Worship?

Simple. Idols aren't alive. Why worship a piece of wood or metal? If an idol helps you to worship whatever living god, no big deal. But a carving can't be a god.

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Again, I have read what he said, and I don't see your point. There is a difference between an idol which invokes the presence of God - and the idols themselves being physical Gods on their own. I have never come across a Hindu who considers the idol as it's own physical God, and I still have not, after reading his post.

Actually he seems to be confusing it with what you call witch magic, where they stuff evil spirits into a doll or something of that sort. But probably he is ignorant of panthesitic/panentheistic philosophies. He might be imagining the idol becoming a separate God and having a separate soul.

I would think not, since I have been saying that for a while now. I don't see anything coming out of arguing with you, it's pretty pointless. You just run around corners and stick your tongue out at people randomly.

Add, stick tongue out at any thing Hindu only.

 

[selwyn]

Again, I have read what he said, and I don't see your point. There is a difference between an idol which invokes the presence of God - and the idols themselves being physical Gods on their own.

Idol invoking the presence of god? wow

I have never come across a Hindu who considers the idol as it's own physical God, and I still have not, after reading his post.

Now read what Sudharshan says here. And remember my question was if you are sure that hindus don't consider idols as god at all?

If you ask me if the idol is God, yes, it is.

And Isn't that what you exactly denied assertively earlier? You don't have to even respond to me. Hopefully, you will be honest with yourself.

I would think not, since I have been saying that for a while now. I don't see anything coming out of arguing with you, it's pretty pointless.

By the way, who told you that I am in here to argue with you or anyone? And don't you even realize that way ahead of you I had stated that it is pretty pointless arguing with you or anyone for that matter that I have been consistently saying that I am not in here for arguments and that you guys can infact ignore my questions?

You just run around corners and stick your tongue out at people randomly.?

And you just end up breaking your own guidelines incoherently because of your incoherent earlier assertions based on partial knowledge while preaching to others in here incoherently assuming that I am in here for argument with you. Right?

Man. Cool down. You don't have to feel bad about the incoherence of your claims in here. Sudharshan himself has claimed out loudly that incoherence of the whole hinduic scripture as such is the very strength of hinduism.

 

[selwyn]

Welcome back my friend,

Hope everything is fine around you. Here we go. More questions out here regarding your claims.

Different Hindus have slightly different opinions on this.

Is it just slightly different opinions or different opinions?

There is no need to consider an idol separately as a God,

Then why on earth do hindus consider idols as god/gods? And it sounds here that you also consider idols as god/gods. Why?

in Hinduism God is both the material and the instrumental cause. (atleast for most Hindus)

Not according to you, right?

If you ask me if the idol is God, yes, it is.

There you go. You do consider idol as god/gods, right?

Is it identical to God - no, it is an attribute of God. More like waves in an ocean, not the ocean itself.

What on earth are you ranting around again? Oops. Are you saying that idols are not just identical to god but god themselves?!!!!! Oh man. Can't you realize the paradox of your claims in here?

If you think the idol alone is God, you are foolish.

Who told you that I think anything like that? But isn't it true that there are hindus in India who do think like that?

If you understand idol to be an expression of divinity which is incomprehensible. that is wise.

What? Idol - an expression of divinity? Isn't it that it is made by the hands of man and infact an expression of human beings? And you call your understanding as expression of divinity as wise?

The idol, like you and me, are part and parcel of the infinite - nothing to be shunned or laughed at.

Sorry man. I can't control laughing here. Isn't it pathetic that you compare yourself to an idol in here? By the way, do you mean to say that you consider yourself as/like(?!!!!) God in here by comparing yourself to idols? Do you remember Proud hindu's claim which you tried to refute?

 

[Theowne]

And Isn't that what you exactly denied assertively earlier? You don't have to even respond to me. Hopefully, you will be honest with yourself.

Maybe you should ask him what he means by that. I am doubtful that what he considers "If you ask me if the idol is God, yes, it is.", is identical to what you have interpreted that to mean. Because in case you forgot, he just stated in the post above you that :

If you think the idol alone is God, you are foolish. If you understand idol to be an expression of divinity which is incomprehensible. that is wise. The idol, like you and me, are part and parcel of the infinite - nothing to be shunned or laughed at.

-------------

And you just end up breaking your own guidelines incoherently because of your incoherent earlier assertions based on partial knowledge while preaching to others in here incoherently assuming that I am in here for argument with you. Right?

No, I was responding to your incoherent claims about the incoherent arguments regarding the inchorent discussions which took place incoherently regarding the incoherent....oops, sorry, I got wrapped up in selwyn-talk there

By the way, who told you that I am in here to argue with you or anyone?

Generally, when one starts to argues with people, it is deducted that that person wishes to argue with people.

I have been consistently saying that I am not in here for arguments and that you guys can infact ignore my questions?

So basically....you wish to spout out senseless accusations - and then tell others to "ignore them". Yep, wouldn't that be a great world, huh

You don't have to feel bad about the incoherence of your claims in here.

It's okay, I don't feel bad. I do feel a bit bad that you are stuck down at your level, but it can't be helped.