What is Wrong with going to Church?

BeforeThereWas said:

Nope. I'm saying that there are similarities because of human nature, but they are not exactly alike in ALL their problems. Institutionalism has its own inherent problems, just as home fellowships have theirs.

Does that clarify better?

BTW

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yes it does... thank you....

SNPete said:

I was amazed that my simple question resulted in such a long lasting thread.



I am saddened that your post is so hostile. If your home church is doing all that you say that is good. My OP was meant to get the isolationists of the Body to see their error. Be part of a local fellowship/church and don't hide or rejoice in your hurts, but let God heal you and be part of the solution instead of an agent of division. Where is it written that we should be isolated? An eye by itself is usless.

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This is contraditory and maybe even hypocritical . Almost every group is isloationist because they have membership or regular attendance doctrines . People who say "go to church !" usually always complian about "church hoppers" - meaning they *command* isolation . Even if one did follow the law as you suggest that "we should" , where is it written that "we should" be a part of a sect of christianity or member of one ?

SNPete said:

I am saddened that your post is so hostile. If your home church is doing all that you say that is good. My OP was meant to get the isolationists of the Body to see their error. Be part of a local fellowship/church and don't hide or rejoice in your hurts, but let God heal you and be part of the solution instead of an agent of division. Where is it written that we should be isolated? An eye by itself is usless.

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We are not isolationists of the Body of Christ nor are we agents of division. We are simple people who want to be left to worship in our own way. Where is it written that we cannot do that?

Bevlina, are you ignoring other people's responses to you, or is your time too limited to address them?

BTW

SNPete said:

I must be going to the wrong churches. I have never encountered membership and attendence doctrines.

If I ever found myself face with such a doctrine, I would leave.

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You won't find out too much about that kind of thing on church's websites, although some post a creed that they require members to accept. You find out about those kinds of churches from those that have been hurt by them, if they are even willing to speak of it at all for fear of retribution from God or whatever other notions their former churches put into their minds.

I was not given communion by a church because I was not part of a sister congregation, nor any other. What they failed to realize, was that the area is almost completely Catholic, that church would not have been acceptable to them. A few Pentecostal churches were scattered around, but they did not approve of them either. So what church should I have belonged to? Although I have been born-again and re-baptized, they did not accept my word for it. I would have had to accept the London confession of 1689 and become a member of that church before receiving communion - i.e. being considered a Christian. What was worse, they did not tell me beforehand but invited me to attend a service where communion was served and told me at the very last minute in front of everyone that I could not receive. Needless to say I never went back there. Not all from the same denomination are that way, but I have seen tendencies in such authoritarian churches that take that kind of thing overboard and lead to many Christians being hurt and staying away from not only that kind of church but any other.

Breezynosacek said in another thread that someone told him that Christians were the only ones that hurt their own wounded. They may not be the only ones, but they are the ones that should know better.

I wouldn't blame people for not going to organized churches, nor for looking for new ways to do fellowship. I may not agree with some forms or programs because of doctrinal reasons and will not hesitate to speak out because of that, but I can't really blame the believers themselves because of what they have been through. The worst of my shock at such unloving treatment was over relatively soon, but some that suffered for years in churches that taught and lived false doctrine may never bring themselves to attend a church again.

It may be better for them to pray with just a few others or even alone, and anyone can open up his bible and read it.

SNPete said:

I must be going to the wrong churches. I have never encountered membership and attendence doctrines.

If I ever found myself face with such a doctrine, I would leave.

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I have only met a few Christians who have not heard of the term "church hopper" . This negative term comes directly from those doctrines . One could not even understand the term if one didn't understand that those doctrines existed .

Also , most people that I know who help in the process of another in their rebirth will "encourage" ( more accurately "insist" ) that the person find *A* church in which they would be "plugged" . *All* of the tracts that I have seen include something like that at the end of the tract for those accepting Christ .

These doctrines of finding *A* church for regular attendance are not hidden by any means . Many christians become upset whenever they hear of people going from group to group . They consider them irrespnsible and unwilling to submit to authorities .

SNPete said:

I see your point. However, I have mostly seen the term used by critical individuals rather than as a part of a chuch doctrine or by laws.

Sometimes what is truly going on is a process of shopping, not hopping.

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Ok . I understand that some shop while they are looking for a singular group because they agree to the idea that one must belong to a group . I have never heard anything negative about that ( except by myself ) because they are doing what they are "supposed" to do .

I belong to a small local church with a fellowship of 8 to 12 people,we have a service every second sunday of the month and a home fellowship most wednesdays.Now I think I have the best of both worlds.All of us have the chance to give sermons if we so wish,we are non-denominational.
I have been involved in large and small fellowships and experienced church splits and seen leadership fall through sin,so I know about the worst side of church life.I have seen many people who have left churches to start home churches, some are Godly and the others are just an excuse to do their own thing.It is important to realise that all churches are not bad and do a great job of spreading the Gospel and looking after their flock.I think the most important thing is,that we fellowship with like minded people,ensure we do not isolate ourselves from those who loves us enough to tell us when we are going astray and to make sure that we check out our motivations, it is easy to think we are the only ones with the truth if there is no one having input into our lives.

johnj2 said:

I have seen many people who have left churches to start home churches, some are Godly and the others are just an excuse to do their own thing.

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Again ... an excuse is only given or needed if something is *required* . There is *no* requirement to do "church" .

It is important to realise that all churches are not bad and do a great job of spreading the Gospel and looking after their flock.

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The important thing is a relationship with the Lord .

I think the most important thing is,that we fellowship with like minded people,ensure we do not isolate ourselves from those who loves us enough to tell us when we are going astray and to make sure that we check out our motivations, it is easy to think we are the only ones with the truth if there is no one having input into our lives.

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*The* most important thing is a relationship with the Lord .

SNPete said:

I must be going to the wrong churches. I have never encountered membership and attendence doctrines.

If I ever found myself face with such a doctrine, I would leave.

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Hi friend

Well you are posting to people that have been faced with membership and attendance doctrines and manipulation and have left.

Here is something I want to share with you that I wrote in another forum:

I understand where the rest of you are coming from, wanting to take the back pew or stay away entirely. The way most churches seem to be I wouldn't blame you either.

I can get to church and even participate on the outside, I just don't feel that it is family on the inside. Just somebody welcoming me at the door and sending me a note now and then is not what I'm after. I generally feel better in protestant churches than Catholic ones, especially where the born-again concept is understood, where one can speak freely about it as well as grace, faith and such. But I don't have that sense of family, being one in the Spirit, something that I felt briefly at my parent's church when visiting them this last summer.

Their church fits the description of a house church. They do not have their own building, the group is small, and when it grows enough then they split, which they were just about to when I visited. It was small enough that I was able to talk to just about everyone there within a few Sundays and Wednesdays. I stayed a month in all. Everyone was genuinely warm and friendly, and not because they were supposed to be or because of some conditioning, it came from the heart. They were springs of water as in John 4:4. From ongoing conversations with my parents, I have heard that there is no strife there, no conflict. If someone needs help monetarily or otherwise everyone pitches in to help. If I had not seen it with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed it. They do follow the teaching of the pastor, but he does not lord it over them, he is genuinely humble and really tries to find the real meaning of Scripture verses, he does not try to twist them. There was no pressure to conform that I could detect, it seems that they leave that to the Holy Spirit, no one is badgered to change. All were studious with Scripture. Out of church, I think that they read too many commentaries. The pastor also supported closed communion, as at the congregation where I was SA'd (spiritually abused), but agreed that what the other pastor did to me was wrong. The teaching and church confession were too conservative for my taste (not necessarily unscriptural), but other than that I could not detect any false doctrine or falseness whatsoever. Focus was on Scripture rather than worship, only a few songs were sung, pleasant ones that did not make my ears cringe. There was no hype.

I am still marvelling at how they do church. I think that I had a sample there of the kind of Christian group I want to find. I usually focus on the rational side of discernment, but even my spirit told me that what I had seen there was the real thing. I am usually terribly dense when it comes to sensing things spiritually. I will look for that kind of group until I find one or am able to start one. I think that not even a leader may be necessary for such a group, just a commitment to serving the Lord and others honestly and uprightly, coupled with a love of Scripture.

Would you stay if you found such a church group?

SNPete said:

I would stay, but only if I was sure this is where God wanted me to be. I have found that the most important thing inmaking a decision (in any area of life) is to seek God's will. For example, I could be living in the most beautiful place on earth, but if God wanted me to live somewhere else, I know that I would not be happy or have peace in that beautiful place. I would happiest in the place God wanted me to live.

This is a life lesson for me, both geographically and churchwise. Please see my blog as it touches on this matter.

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With this , we completely agree .

SNPete said:

I would stay, but only if I was sure this is where God wanted me to be. I have found that the most important thing inmaking a decision (in any area of life) is to seek God's will. For example, I could be living in the most beautiful place on earth, but if God wanted me to live somewhere else, I know that I would not be happy or have peace in that beautiful place. I would happiest in the place God wanted me to live.

This is a life lesson for me, both geographically and churchwise. Please see my blog as it touches on this matter.

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I have found that if I am too satisfied in a place, then I get too settled back and do not do enough to grow in the Lord. Living in what I call a spiritual desert makes me depend more on Him and less on others for my spiritual food. I have to open up Scripture and feed myself. No one else will do it for me. The next lesson will be learning satisfaction and happiness despite the bleakness of the desert. Joy is even commanded, I just have to learn how to follow that one. I have a few Christian friends, they are hard to come by here, but they are often busy, and so am I. We encourage each other and meet when possible. That is already much to be thankful for. For some years I did not know any born-again Christians at all. I prayed long to find those friends that I know now.

discernomatic said:

I have found that if I am too satisfied in a place, then I get too settled back and do not do enough to grow in the Lord. Living in what I call a spiritual desert makes me depend more on Him and less on others for my spiritual food.

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Excellent point. More of us need to walk that wilderness so that our impurities can be brought to the surface and dealt with accordingly. It is in that place that out true nature and the depths of our depravity come out.

The next lesson will be learning satisfaction and happiness despite the bleakness of the desert.

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Good one.

BTW

Yes, this desert experience is essential for so many of us!
In NT the desert was where the outcasts and zealots could be found!
In OT it was the place of testing or of hearing God!

People who live in the desert are aware of one another, often warey, but still aware in a way that we who live among many people can't be!
When you have nothing, friendship and the ability to discern and trust is all.