What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[P1LGR1M]

Yes, we might wrestle with sin and the old man and stumble at times but ultimately there is a striving and obedience to the Father.

So you are sinless now?

Or, your wrestling with sin is different from "continual, habitual and unrepentant sin?"

But you make the point that "there is a striving." That is the point.

And I hate to say it, but until you are glorified—that striving will not end.

There is a fruit bearing that naturally takes places as the wild olive branch settles in and starts to do what olive branches do. But even these fruits, or good works don't belong to us, as they are fueled 100% by God's working in us.

I agree, because we were saved unto good works.

Not works of righteousness that we do, because when we think we are righteous it is usually sin, lol.

We might end up praying, "I thank you Father, because I am not like _____________."

Jesus was clear that "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5).

Okay, so a simple question for you: which of the disciples abided in Christ?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Without God's power we are dead lifeless branches.

That cannot be true of those who are born again, that is the point of Christ's Ministry of Salvation: to besow the life to men that they did not have.

One either has life or they do not. We cannot merge teachings and create a teaching that those who are abiding in Christ can also be dead.

I will suggest to you that the teaching of the True Vine is prophetic, even as the teaching of the indwelling of God is prophetic.

Not a single disciple "abided in Christ," they, to a man—abandoned Christ:


John 16:29-32
King James Version

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


They were not yet believing in Christ. See v.31. If the Lord can question their "belief" which is based on the flesh, so can we.

Secondly, I would ask you this question: what is the Vine that is not the True Vine?

When Christ said He was the Bread from Heaven, the True Bread, there is an Old Testament type that stood in His place until He came.

What is the Vine that was not the True Vine?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Our good works don't even belong to us. Therefore, nothing we can do before or after we come to Christ will ever be enough to save us. We need to believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and be born-again - all of this God does.

I agree.

If a person does not have any good works/fruits in their life but is enslaved to sin, the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:9-21) and in bondage to evil lusts with no power to overcome it might be because of 2 things: 1) they are born-again but are quenching, grieving and resisting the work of the Holy Spirit in their life and are in danger of being cast out as a branch (John 15:6) or 2) they were never born-again in the first place.

There's a couple more reasons we could add to the list:

3. they are immature believers;

4. they have not yet been able to recognize their sin as sin, though other members of the Body do;

5. they associate with other "believers" who hold to erroneous doctrine and have been led away with their error;

6. they are being chastized of the Lord, and He is allowing them to err for the purpose that they might be taught of Him;


It is best for us, if we believe a professing brother or sister is sinning, if we seek to restore them, and this in meekness.

Not in judgment.

We do judge as one also capable of falling, but we do not judge their salvation (or the lack thereof).

Are we not told that we might fall into the same error?


Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

In Summary:

• Grace + Faith + Works = Salvation (is a stance not supported in the Bible)

Agreed.

Faith + Grace = Salvation + Works (is what I believe to be the truth

And I would have to say I see this as error.

Show me where men are eternally redeemed by faith.

This is, sadly, what many people believe today, that we are saved by faith through grace, the exact opposite of what Scripture states:


Ephesians 2:8
King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Calvinism teaches that men are regenerated that they might have faith and belief. What that teaches is that men save themselves, because salvation is credited to faith, which is something men do/have.

But it is Grace—period.

Crace that God reveals His will to men, and gives them the understanding they cannot possibly have within their natural condition.

Furthermore, it was grace that motivated God to veil His glory in human flesh, die on a Cross in the stead of the sinner that He might have means to forgive men their sins.

Apart from grace all men would die in their sins and face Eternal Separation.

Faith + Grace = Salvation + Works (is what I believe to be the truth where works are a byproduct of salvation because it is supernaturally produced by the Holy Spirit and God's grace.

If I said I saved a man from drowning with a john boat, would you say his salvation was due to the john boat?

So why would you think salvation was by faith?

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is the john boat, God's grace is the reason the john boat reached the drwoning man.

The only role one play's in the equation, is having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and not quenching His grace.

Again you are merging two distinct Bible Doctrines, Salvation and Progressive Sanctification.

Would you admit to quenching the Spirit since you were saved? If you would, were you any less saved as you did that?

Men cannot have faith util one has something in which to place faith in. I often get challenged when I say salvation has an order of 1) God's intervention with the revelation of truth, 2) man's belief, and 3) man's faith.

God's grace is expressed in His willingness to provide truth to men, and men must believe that truth, and then faith is generated based on belief.

Believing and having faith are not the same thing, because devils believe yet they do not have faith that what they believe is salvfic.

The natural man is predisposed not to believe, but when he does—the faith generated by that belief will grow.

We all start out as ignorant babes, and the strength of our faith at any given point in our walk is dependent on the individual beliefs we hold. I can tell you now that those who believe the Gospel, that God sent His Son to die in our stead, and believe that is the only means of Eternal Redemption have a stronger faith than those who think Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice is a starting point on the road to eternal life.

And if we understand Regeneration we know that there is nothing in Scripture that teaches that the Eternal Life we share with Christ when we are baptized into Him is taken away.
One either has life, or they will never have it:


John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


John 6:53
King James Version

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

See also Ephesians 2:8-10 which says "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them". If we use this model it also makes perfect sense why Jesus would say "you shall know them by their fruits" in Mathew 7:16-20.)

Agreed.

And we would also recognize that at times—trees need pruning, lol.

Faith + Grace = Salvation (What you were implying in your previous comments and the reason why I wrote this reply)

Not sure how you arrived at this conclusion, perhaps you could point this out for me.

I am consistent in my teaching that I reject salvation by faith through grace. I hvae had pages of debates on that singular topic on a numner of forums.

My teaching is Salvation is by the grace of God—alone.

I do teach that men are justified by faith and works, as did Paul and James, but we have to distinguish between Justification in a temporal context Romans 4; James 2) and Justification in an eternal context (Romans 3:23-26).

Neither Paul nor James teach that men are saved by faith alone or saved by faith and works. Both Catholics and Protestants that teach that err in their understanding of Eternal Redemption.

What they are teaching is that Abraham was declared righteous based on his faith (alone, in Romans 4) and his faith and works (James 2). He was justified by faith alone and faith and works. Both Bible Writers are 100% accurate in their teaching.

But the debate has become that they were teaching salvation by faith alone and by faith and works. That debate doesn't represent what both men were actually teaching about.

Eternal Salvation and Eternal Redemption are the result of God's Work independent of man. Man did not die on the Cross, man did not rise from the dead, man did not grant remission of sins in an eternal context, man did not declare righteous in an eternal context, man did nothing but—believe.

And he wouldn't have been able to do that if God had not given him the ability to believe. It is God that reveals the Gospel of Christ to man's heart that he might believe in Jesus Christ. It is God that Baptizes men into Christ.

And it is God that will finish the work He began in us.

Salvation is by God alone, through grace alone. If we attribute salvation to our believing, then we consider ourselves to have done a work by which we were saved.

The illustration I like to use often is this: if I come up behind you and throw a bucket of ice water on your head on a hot day you are going to respond to that act. That response demands the action I take, and if I don't take it, no such response will occur.

What did you do to respond? Nothing. The response was extracted from you without your needing to analyze the situation.

So too, when God reveals truth to men they respond. They don't make it truth by believing, they simply respond.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Personally, even though I am no anabaptist, I believe that the anabaptist's to do the best job of describing this born-again reality in their theology. "Anabaptist denominations, such as the Mennonites, teach that "True faith entails a new birth, a spiritual regeneration by God's grace and power; 'believers' are those who have become the spiritual children of God." In Anabaptist theology, the pathway to salvation is "marked not by a forensic understanding of salvation by 'faith alone', but by the entire process off repentance, self-denial, faith rebirth and obedience." Those who wish to tarry this path receive baptism after the New Birth. Anabaptists heavily emphasize the importance of obedience in the salvation journey of a believer."

Sorry, but I view this as the very fleshly reasoning that is in conflict with Divine Revelation:


Matthew 16:16-17
King James Version

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


God revealed to the disciples (at least Peter, lol) that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. FLesh and blood did not reveal it to him/them, or in other words, they did not examine the facts and draw conclusions based on their knowledge and experience.

What was not divinely revealed to the disciples was the Mystery of the Gospel:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Peter's rejection of the Gospel was fleshly. His conclusion which results in 1) rebuking the Christ, the Son of God he just confessed, and 2) exposing his ignorance of the Gospel (v.21).

He is in effect saying here, "No, Lord! I don't want the only thing that can lead to Eternal Life and salvation from judgment to happen!"

Because Peter, like all Jews, had a physical expectation of Messiah's coming.

Did Peter abide in Christ? No, he denied he even knew "the man."

He would attempt to commit murder to keep Christ from dying in His stead.

What Peter needed was to be born of God. Then He would understand why Christ had to die.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Btw I love your username. Have you ever read the 'The Pilgrims Progress' by John Bunyan?

No, but I've heard enough about it that I feel like I have, lol.

Outside of the Bible it is one of my favorite books and as Christian it is highly beneficial to read it. I highly recommend.

I stopped reading extrabiblical sources a number of years ago. Not that I tell people they shouldn't, because I think there is a lot that can be beneficial to us. But eventually, I think we need to hone our focus on Scripture itself, and instead of letting the commentators tell us what we ought to believe we should allow God to work in our hearts One on one.

These days I prefer to write books if I'm going to invest time in extrabiblical sources, lol. I'm the same way with my music: I write music, but seldom listen to it.

Anyways, in the modern editions there is a chapter called "Signs of Grace" which speaks about this born-again reality and the outward manifestations of the working of the Holy Spirit in the life of believer. In other words, it talks about the 'fruit bearing' and how this superior to the verbal claims a person might make in saying that they are a follower of Christ.

Without question, that is just a basic Bible Principle.

However, we keep in mind that God has not expected perfection in us, though it is commanded, lol. If He thought we could be perfect as He is perfect, He need not have died in our stead.

Nor would we need an Advocate with the Father.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

But before, I get hammered with, "this is a form of works-based salvation",

I haven't really seen it as that, though I do think we all run the risk of arguing to extremes. And this is particularly prevalent on forums where the same debates are engaged in by the same people day in and day out for years.

It's kind of like rejecting the Deity of Mary: I have seen people get to the extreme where they are reviling the mother of our Lord in their attempts to convince people Mary is not to be worshiped.

So too, trying to bring a balance between an antinomian view and the legalistic view often ends up in extremes that likely neither side would be guilty of in reality.

In my view, the one effort of distinguishing in Scripture that which is temporal/physical with that which is eternal will help settle most debates.

But before, I get hammered with, "this is a form of works-based salvation", I would like to stress 3 things. 1) John Bunyan who wrote this, was protestant that rebelled strongly against Catholicism (as it is works-based)

You say this as though being a Protestant ensures accurate doctrine, lol.

Would I remind you that the First Protestant was a Catholic?

Again, an extreme, in my view. Protestant, Evangelical, or Catholic, we are all so varied in what we believe we can't really point to any group and say they are the ones who got everything right. I've known Catholics who are very conservative and in my view worship the Christ of the Bible. That the group they belong to has error doesn't impact their sincere desire to live according to God's will. Similarly, I've known Protestants and Evangelicals who do not embrace everything the group they associate with teaches.

2) There is a chapter in Pilgrims Progress where a character named Ignorant tires to earn his salvation through him own good works and merit as opposed to trusting fully in the work that was done on the cross by Christ. In the very last chapter, we see Ignorant being led to hell.

And I would have a problem with that: people only go to Hell for one reason: rejecting the revelation God provides to them.

That is true of all Ages in Scripture.

I have no doubt that there are many born-again believers who have been taught men must do good works to "maintain" their salvation, and that they will be in Heaven just as every other born-again believer will.

We must admit we all have error in our knowledge base, and that we haven't even been given all revelation there is to know. Ignorance won't send people to Hell, it is a direct rejection of the knowledge God delivers to men that does that.

3) No one is saved 'by' their good works (e.g. helping grandma cross the street) but rather saved 'FOR' them. How can you be powered by the battery of God's grace and not produce good fruit? You are literally indwelt by the Holy Spirit!

So would we consider someone who has been saved for 35 years and has a better understanding of God and sin to be more saved than those newly born again?

Eternal Redemption is the condition of being in eternal union with God through Christ.

Progressive Sanctification is the process through which we are conformed to the image of His Son as we live here.

Think about Jonestown: would we think that among all of those people following this evil false teacher that there were zero born-again believers among them? I have my doubts about that. I think there were born-again believers led astray by this wicked fellow, and that they went to Heaven to be with the Lord when they died.

Anyways, I hope this makes sense! I'm not attacking anything you wrote (I agree with most of it actually) - rather I am just adding what I think you might have left out.

I still haven't seen what it is I have left out, lol.

I regularly speak about Regeneration, and I do not teach that Christians have license to sin.

So the question at this point is—have I left anything out this time?

Let me know what you think!

I've enjoyed it, really. This is how forums should be among brethren: discussion that is edifying. And I appreciate it when I get the chance to talk with someone without antagonism, lol. As much as I love to debate, I also love to fellowship with the brethren.

All the best! God bless!

And I pray the Lord bless you as well.

God bless.

 

[Clare73]

Dear @P1LGR1M

Very very interesting comments you just made. Most of what you are saying is spot on. It's what you are 'not saying' or leaving out that I would like to discuss further.

As well as the assertion of two resurrections (post #5065) in contradiction of NT teaching.

In NT apostolic teaching of specific locations of the final events, all are specifically located in the last day:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurence,

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

All Scripture is to be understood in the light of the NT.
That understanding of prophetic riddles is not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

 

[P1LGR1M]

As well as the assertion of two resurrections (post #5065) in contradiction of NT teaching.

Sorry, but your quoting of Post 5056 is as in error as your Eschatology.

But that's okay, I don't mind helping you with your confusion.

In NT apostolic teaching of specific locations of the final events, all are specifically located in the last day:

Really?

Is this why you quote the Lord's statement first?

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).

Christ ministered within the Law and the Revelation provided to men in that day, and His ministry is specific to Israel. Most Theologians will acknowledge that "The Day of Lord" is not limited to a singular day or event,

But it is outside of Apostolic Teaching (but hey, it sounds good in a rebuke) we see Christ's Own teaching clarifying that His Return does not result in a Rapture:


Luke 17:25-37
King James Version

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Can we agree this speaks of Christ's Return?

Can we not also see that when He returns, some will be taken, and some will be left?

Where are they taken? In the Rapture?

No, in view is the same judgment illustrated by Noah and Lot. The judgments results in physical death. Those who are left are they who are born again and enter into the Kingdom established by Christ at His Return.

Not so in the Rapture.

The Sheep and Goat Judgment takes place and the Sheep enter into the Millennial Kingdom. The Goats are physically destroyed and enter into everlasting punishment, their bodies left for carrion fowl and beasts, their spirits sent into Hades to await the Second Death.


Ezekiel 39
King James Version

1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.


Not a coincidence that this chapter is followed by instruction concerning the Millennial Kingdom.

The Supper of Great God seen above is also seen at Christ's return:


Revelation 19:17-21
King James Version

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


That this is not "the last day" is seen in Ezekiel as well as Revelation 20, where we see what happens after the Supper of the Great God:


Ezekiel 39:8-13
King James Version

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.


We also see, in Daniel, that there is a seventy-five day period that follows the end of the Tribulation, which again denies an application of "the last day" as literally "the last day:"


Daniel 12:6-12
King James Version

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


1260 days in a year. There shall be a specific event at 1290 days (30 days after the Tribulation.

There shall be another specific event at 1335 days (75 days after the "end" of these things vv.6 and 8)

Seeing that those who are taken are taken in Judgment as in the days of Noah and Lot—where the wicked perished physically—are examples of how it will be at Christ's Return, we can also see that those who are left enter into the Kingdom God has promised to Israel.

The Abomination of Desolation takes place at the mid-point of the Tribulation, and coincides with the resurrection/rapture of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11.

The additional 75 days are likely the period in which Satan is bound and the nations are gathered, and the Kingdom is established.

The biggest problem those who embrace a Post-Tribulation Rapture have is that the Rapture described by Paul involves the resurrection and glorification of the entire Body of Christ, both living and dead. If all believers are glorified when Christ returns then this leaves no one to physically inhabot the Millennial Kingdom and produce the offspring that joins ranks with Satan and is destroyed in that "last day:"


Revelation 20:7-9
King James Version

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


So how do Post-Trib believers handle this? They simply remove the thousand years from Scripture. At least most of them do.

The thousand years isn't literal, because, after all—a thousand years with the Lord is as a day, and a day as a thousand years.

But let's not forget that while Peter is quite correct in his statement that time is meaningless to Eternal God, it means quite a bit to mortal men. That thousand years is going to be a long time for Satan as well.

So if we keep all relevant Scripture in its proper context, we have to conclude that the Rapture of the Church will take place prior to the Tribulation and that those who are born again during that period will be the only ones that survive and enter into the Kingdom.

That is one of the reasons why Christ stated, "Except a man be born again he will not enter into the Kingdom of God." We acknolwedge the application to the unseen Kingdom of the rule and reign of Christ in our hearts, but we can't eliminate the context in regards to God's promise to Israel to restore the Kingdom.

So is Christ's Return the last day? No, because we still acknowledge Christ's teaching within the Law, Prophets, and Psalms, and do not impose an understanding that leaves out what the rest of Scripture has to say. Particularly Apostolic Teaching.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

As well as the assertion of two resurrections (post #5065) in contradiction of NT teaching.

No contradiction, there are only two resurrections available to men:


John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Paul "locates" a resurrection, that of the Church, both living and dead.

We do not discount that the "First resurrection" in a sequential context is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the firstfruits from the dead, and the first to rise from the dead:


Acts 26:22-24
King James Version

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


The second resurrection is of course the Pre-TRibulation Rapture.



The third is the Rapture of the Two Witnesses:


Revelation 11:11-12
King James Version

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


We are left to debate whether the following is a rapture:


Revelation 20:4
King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Unlike the rapture of the Church, we cannot be dogmatic about whether these believers are raptured. We are told they will reign with Christ through the Millennial Kingdom and this could suggest glorification.

However, because long life is one of God's promises in the Restored Kingdom, it could be that they are raised physically only and live that long because of the Reformation (God's Reformation, not man's).

Secondly, it would suggest that they will be part of the Millennial Kingdom, which could cause us to lean toward physical resurrection.

I would lean towards their being glorified, but again I would not be dogmatic on the issue.

What we can be dogmatic about is that this is not the Rapture of the Church, because we only see the dead believers of the Tribulation raised to life again, and the living believers (the Sheep) cannot be glorified at this time but must remain physical to fulfill not only the prophecy of the Restored Kingdom (Isaiah 65:20) but to fulfill the prophecy of this very chapter, which demands physical descendants of the Sheep (believers) who enter the Kingdom because they were born again during the Tribulation as the Martyrs were.

What we can say is that this is not "the last day." It is not even the last year. Or the last month, or the last decade, or the last century.

The Last Day would fall better on the day that this creation passes away and we do see a resurrection of the dead:


Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


This better represents the teaching of Christ.

This is truly the Last Day.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).

No, He consistently teaches that when He returns there will be the death of unbelievers.


Matthew 24:27-31
King James Version

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Luke 17:24-30
King James Version

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


Luke 17:34-37
King James Version

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Just as the wicked were taken in judgment and the righteous left in Noah and Lot's day, even so will it be in the Day when the Lord returns.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

Finally—something we can agree on.

Yes, the Second Coming will have as an aspect the Sheep and Goat Judgment, but we do not confuse this judgment with the Great White Throne Judgment.

There is a thousand years separating the two judgments.

And there is never any mention of glorification in the Sheep and Goat Judgment. The Goats go into everlasting punishment and the Sheep enter into the Kingdom.

For those that do not think that the thousand years is literal, it still remains that there is a time shown before and after the events of Revelation 20. That is enough to demand that these are two separate events (the resurrection of the Tribulation MArtyrs and the general resurrection of the dead at the end of that time period.

Best to just take God's Word as it is given.

So in terms of the time of their occurence,

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

Just not supported by Scripture.

We see, for example, the Two Witnesses raptured in the very mid-point of the Seven Year Tribulation.

We know it is seven years because they minister for 3 1/2 years wherein no man has power over them. Antichrist's reign of terror begins with their deaths. He too has a 3 1/2 year term.

The abomination which makes desolate takes place once the Two Witnesses are raptured. They are the only ones mentioned here, and while it is possible that the Rapture of the Church takes place at this time, this is not really implied in the timeline of events. Again, best to simply take Scripture at its Word and view the Two Witnesses as the only ones raptured here.

(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

Mot all of mankind, because we still have the believers and multitude of unbelievers one thousand years later to deal with.

All Scripture is to be understood in the light of the NT.

I agree.

Which is why I am a firm Pre-Tribulation Rapturist.

That understanding of prophetic riddles is not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

Just Basic Bible Doctrine we should all be familiar with.

There are only two resurrections in a qualitative context, the resurrection unto life and the resurrection unto damnation.

That the "First Resurrection" of Revelation 20 is not sequential is borne out by the very resurrections listed in Scripture.

The Resurrection unto life is the First Resurrection and is contrasted with the second resurrection, the Second Death. That is—the resurrection unto damnation.


God bless.

 

[QvQ]

There is an error in believing that there is a "sign" placed on the believer or elect. When people state that if a person truly is saved, then it will manifest by some sign such as a sinless life or greater generosity or a milder temper. A "true Christian" would be such and such which is the "doctrine of salvation + works"
I had a neighbor with whom I had many, what I thought, were good conversations about God. We agreed on points of doctrine. Then one day he told me that I was not saved, obviously, because I did not talk in tongues. I didn't have the "mark" of saved upon me.
This is a false doctrine..salvation +works or "signs."
If a person states to me that he believes in Christ and the Resurrection, or ascribes to the Nicene Creed, I take his word. I don't look for "signs" or "works" as meaning a "True Christian" would do such and such and because that person did not do "such and such" then he wasn't really a Christian.

 

[Clare73]

Finally—something we can agree on.

If only it were so. . .

Yes, the Second Coming will have as an aspect the Sheep and Goat Judgment, but we do not confuse this judgment with the Great White Throne Judgment.

All interpretation of Scripture must be in agreement with NT authoritative (1 Thessalonians 2:13; Luke 10:16; Matthew 10:40) and apostolic teaching.
The sheep and goat judgment is the only judgment presented in NT and apostolic teaching, in which teaching there is no mankind that is not a sheep/wheat or a goat/tare, which authoritative apostolic teaching governs all interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) so that the word of God does not contradict itself.
And in NT and apostolic teaching, the judgment of the sheep and the goats is the judgment of all mankind at the end of time.

There is a thousand years separating the two judgments.

Not according to NT authoritative apostolic teaching, that is personal interpretation of prophetic riddles in contradiction to authoritative apostolic teaching.

And there is never any mention of glorification in the Sheep and Goat Judgment. The Goats go into everlasting punishment and the Sheep enter into the Kingdom.
For those that do not think that the thousand years is literal, it still remains that there is a time shown before and after the events of Revelation 20. That is enough to demand that these are two separate events (the resurrection of the Tribulation MArtyrs and the general resurrection of the dead at the end of that time period.

Best to just take God's Word as it is given.

Prophetic riddles/dark sayings (Numbers 12:8) are just that, not given clearly and must be interpreted... in agreement with NT and apostolic teaching if Scripture is not to contradict itself. . .which is why this scenario was never heard of in the church until about 100 years ago.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

This is what’s wrong lol . Not understanding basic logic and apologetics. This from a self professed “ theologian “ and seminary graduate .

 

[P1LGR1M]

If only it were so. . .

Yes, it is so. We do agree on that point.

All interpretation of Scripture must be in agreement with NT authoritative (1 Thessalonians 2:13; Luke 10:16; Matthew 10:40) and apostolic teaching.

Feel free to show why the Scripture and points I made are not valid.

The sheep and goat judgment is the only judgment presented in NT and apostolic teaching, in which teaching there is no mankind that is not a sheep/wheat or a goat/tare, which authoritative apostolic teaching governs all interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) so that the word of God does not contradict itself.

You don't consider Revelation 20 as Apostolic Teaching?

I agree that all of mankind can be considered Sheep/Wheat and Goats/Tares, but that doesn't change the fact that Christ makes it clear that unbelievers are destroyed physically a His Return in the same manner as in the days of Noah and Lot.

And in that example we see that the righteous live physically through the judgment.

And in NT and apostolic teaching, the judgment of the sheep and the goats is the judgment of all mankind at the end of time.

It's not the end of time. When the Lord returns there is the judgment of the wicked, the entrance of the righteous into the Kingdom, and a thousand years separating the destruction of the goats and the destruction of the multitude that joins ranks with Satan.

You can deny that thousand years but you will be violating the very condition you are trying to say is necessary.

We can't deny contradiction if we are removing part of the teaching.

Not according to NT authoritative apostolic teaching, that is personal interpretation of prophetic riddles in contradiction to authoritative apostolic teaching.

It's not a personal interpretation, it is the simple statement of the Word of God:


Revelation 20:1-9
King James Version

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Private interpretation would go along the lines of "A thousand years doesn't really mean a thousand years."

Leaving God's Word intact isn't private interpretation.

Prophetic riddles/dark sayings (Numbers 12:8) are just that, not given clearly and must be interpreted...

Except where the New Testament gives us a more complete understanding of the Prophecy already given (Hebrews 6:1-3).

in agreement with NT and apostolic teaching if Scripture is not to contradict itself. . .

All Prophecy, whether given in the Old Testament or the New—must be in complete agreement.

And we see that in Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 19 and Daniel 12 are in agreement. There is a period of time that follows the Tribulation which denies that the Judgment that takes place when Christ returns is "the last day."

which is why this scenario was never heard of in the church until about 100 years ago.

Actually, it is First Century Doctrine that the Lord and the Apostles taught.

If you disagree, please address the Scripture and points presented.

The Rapture of the Church will take place prior to the Tribulation. It cannot take place at Christ's return because all unbelievers are destroyed and all believers are "left."

That is what Christ is speaking about in regards to "where the eagles are," it is the Supper of the GReat God.


God bless.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This is what’s wrong lol . Not understanding basic logic and apologetics. This from a self professed “ theologian “ and seminary graduate .

Yeah, that can be a problem. But I wonder how many Christian seminaries offer a curriculum that places students in a more expansive research program engaging the epistemic nitty gritty of the various logic(S)?

 

[Clare73]

You don't consider Revelation 20 as Apostolic Teaching?

Precisely. . .it is prophecy, not teaching.

God told Miriam that he speaks to the prophets in riddles (dark sayings) and not clearly (Numbers 12:8), but not so to Moses to whom he speaks plainly.
Prophetic riddles must be interpreted. . .and therein is the problem, for they can be interpreted in more than one way, the only rule being that all interpretation must be in agreement with NT teaching if it is to be correct.
Some of your interpretation is in disagreement with NT apostolic teaching, as in two resurrections of humankind.

 

[P1LGR1M]

This is what’s wrong lol . Not understanding basic logic and apologetics. This from a self professed “ theologian “ and seminary graduate .

I love Matt Slick. He's great. Wrong about a number of things but you can't deny the guy has zeal for God and His Word.

I remember not too many years ago some guys ridiculing John MacArthur because he wasn't "a real theologian," and so the question I would ask is this: what does it mean to be a "real theologian?"

I love MacArthur, and despite the fact we disagree about a few things, I view him to be at the top of the list when it comes to being a Theologian. Few men, in my view, have put in the time in serving God that MacArthur has.

So I have to say, I don't see logic as the reason for why we have doctrinal differences, nor do I see those who, like Matt Slick (as well as the atheist he was debating) who think they can expound God's Word in a "logical" manner and because of their logic think they have an inarguable case or point of view.

What is logical about God creating the world in six days?

What is logical about people who walk around every day being dead?

So for the sake of discussion, what does it mean to be a Theologian, and what does it mean to be a real Theologian?


God bless.