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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Guojing

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...to be Jesus' teaching, rather than John's commentary, and that it was spoken by Christ within the teaching as Christ addresses Nicodemus.

I can see, though, how one could view it as commentary, and apologize for the curt response.


God bless.

Thanks, I have encountered so many Christians, where, thanks to Billy Graham's legacy, try to read Paul's revelation of the mystery into John 3:16 and simply assumed that Jesus was saying you only need to "believe in him" and you will be saved, nothing else is required.

That is not what John 3:16 meant. This is why Jesus spoke of Israel “doing truth” so that their “deeds may be made manifest” (John 3:21), and two chapters later speaks about their resurrection being contingent on what “they have done” (John 5:29).
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Thanks, I have encountered so many Christians, where, thanks to Billy Graham's legacy, try to read Paul's revelation of the mystery into John 3:16 and simply assumed that Jesus was saying you only need to "believe in him" and you will be saved, nothing else is required.

That is not what John 3:16 meant. This is why Jesus spoke of Israel “doing truth” so that their “deeds may be made manifest” (John 3:21), and two chapters later speaks about their resurrection being contingent on what “they have done” (John 5:29).
Belief/Faith and following/obedience/repentance are two sides of the same coin. They go hand in hand together. Faith without works is dead ( James 2 ) and faith without fruit is cut off from the vine as a dead branch and cast into the fire as per Jesus teaching in John 15.

hope this helps !!!
 
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P1LGR1M

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Thanks, I have encountered so many Christians, where, thanks to Billy Graham's legacy, try to read Paul's revelation of the mystery into John 3:16 and simply assumed that Jesus was saying you only need to "believe in him" and you will be saved, nothing else is required.

And on this we still disagree: believing in Christ is the only thing one must do in order to be saved in an eternal context.

Because Salvation is a result of the Work of Christ, not the work of men, and not the Work of Christ plus the work of men:


John 3:9-16
King James Version

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



Nicodemus asks the question "How can these things be." This is asking, "How can man be born again (from above, born of God)?"

Christ's answer: The Son of Man must be lifted up.

Entrance to the Kingdom of God is by being born of God. While it is assumed by some that because Christ states men must be born again that means it could happen at that time (and before) we have to remember that no man could "believe" in Jesus Christ as the Risen Savior because the Gospel still remained a Mystery.

Christ taught men must believe in Him, and just as being born again was not possible yet, even so the very belief in Christ necessary for Eternal Redemption was not available yet.

So Christ's teaching is very clear: one can only be born again (thus enter into the Kingdom Christ came to establish through His vicarious death) through the Sacrifice of Christ (v.14) and belief in Jesus Christ.

Christ did the dying, we do the believing.

And believing became possible through the Ministry of the Comforter (John 16:7-9; Ephesians 3:4-5; 1 Peter 1:12).

Paul also reiterates this Basic Gospel Principle:


Acts 16:29-31
King James Version

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



Eternal Redemption is achieved by Christ alone:


Hebrews 9:12
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



God enlightens the natural mind to the spiritual truth of the Gospel by the Spirit, man merely acknowledges this truth in belief and he is saved. Being born of God, born from above, and born again is a result of Christ's Work (John 3:14; 1 Peter 1:3), not man's.

If I take a bucket of ice-water and throw it on an unsuspecting person on a hot day there is a response to what I have done. So too, when the Comforter enlightens the natural mind there is a response. Many will reject this enlightenment, but some will believe and recognize their condition and the judgment that they are faced with.

The fear of this judgment is a healthy fear.

That is not what John 3:16 meant.

It is a direct statement to the Mystery of Christ.

God's promise to Abraham was the veiled Gospel, and we can understand, unlike Abraham, why Abraham's Seed would bless all families of the earth.

So too, Christ's teaching during His earthly ministry is still speaking of the Gospel Mystery.

Perhaps I am not understanding (again, lol) what it is you are trying to say.

This is why Jesus spoke of Israel “doing truth” so that their “deeds may be made manifest” (John 3:21),

Christ was made under the Law and ministered within the Law during His earthly ministry, and was not revealing the Mystery of the Gospel.

When Jesus spoke of "doing truth..."


John 3:18-21
King James Version

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.



...He is still calling men to believe in Him.

The "Light" is HImself, and that is what men are called to come to. The truth.

But men are condemned because they do not believe in the Name of the only-begotten Son, not because of general evil.

The Law was meant to lead men to the conclusion they were in need of a Savior, not meant to create a works-based salvation they could accomplish themselves.


Galatians 2:21
King James Version

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.



and two chapters later speaks about their resurrection being contingent on what “they have done” (John 5:29).

This is a general truth: God will judge all men, and their words and deeds will be judged.

That doesn't change the simple statement of John 3:14-16:


John 3:14-16
King James Version

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The only thing required is that men believe in Jesus Christ. That's it. That is why Christ came, to die in the stead of the sinner that the sinner might, through belief in the Name of Jesus Christ—remain no longer in condemnation.

And we see the same thing in John 5:


John 5:21-24
King James Version

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



How do we honor the Father?


John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.



So what else must men do in order to have Eternal Life?


God bless.
 
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Guojing

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And on this we still disagree: believing in Christ is the only thing one must do in order to be saved in an eternal context.

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


God bless.

Looking at John 3:16 and John 20:31, one question to clarify regarding your interpretation, to see whether you are anticipating revelation by reading Paul into those verses, as I earlier claimed you were doing.

Can you believe that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" without also believing he died for your sins and rose again on the 3rd day for your justification"?
 
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Guojing

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Belief/Faith and following/obedience/repentance are two sides of the same coin. They go hand in hand together. Faith without works is dead ( James 2 ) and faith without fruit is cut off from the vine as a dead branch and cast into the fire as per Jesus teaching in John 15.

hope this helps !!!

Is what you are stating here equivalent to what he stated as "you only need to "believe in him" and you will be saved, nothing else is required"?
 
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Guojing

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Actually many scholars believe it's a comment of John (John 3:16-21 I believe).

Thanks to Billy Graham, so many used that particular verse to claim that Jesus is saying you only need to believe and nothing else. =)
 
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Guojing

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Wouldn't believing necessarily bring a transformation?

Wouldn't a lack of transformation be the result of a lack of believing?

It is not the transformation that saves, but the believing that led to it...

What do you think of Romans 4:5?
 
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Guojing

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What specifically are you saying it contradicts?

The evidence of transformation from belief?

I would simply argue that all true belief is transformative, as it is a means of grace.

What does Romans 4:5 says literally?
 
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Guojing

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I don't believe we can justify in the context using every single definition for works in Paul's use of the word "works."

Paul has been talking very specifically and directly about a certain kind of works, Works of the Law, that is, good works done as obedience to the demand of God's Law to demonstrate virtue and merit righteousness.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth is not clear enough to you that belief and works are independent of each other?

Are you doing the "Paul is only talking about works of the law but not works of faith" here?
 
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Guojing

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Precisely so.

Context determines that.

Ahh, thanks for confirming.

That way is very popular among covenant theologians when it comes to reconciling Romans 4:5 with James 2:24
 
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philadelphos

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Some good points there. I'm not going to take the time to argue with the rest, except concerning Dave Hunt, perhaps, and

I have found there are more than just me on this site that identify with Calvinism/Reformed Theology not having learned it as such to begin with, but finding the truths for ourselves, by different experiences, prayer and study. I read a few writers, such as John Owen and Spurgeon, and came to realize I was not wrong —at least, not as wrong as what I had believed previously ;) Reading Owen over and over is still to me like chewing good food.

Anyhow, it took a while before I even knew the Reformed pretty much agree with me. In some ways, I think myself more reformed than most of them —for example, they are, I think monergists, as am I, but only, (or so it seems to me, anyway), concerning salvation, and not concerning the rest of the Christian walk and sanctification. To me, the Gospel is the whole deal. And it is God's doing. It is almost like I'm being given to privilege of riding along, and being involved. I could go on and on.

Dave Hunt has a few good things to say, but he's wrong. Sometimes, it would fit him to say, "No, he's not right. He's not even wrong!", because he wanders so far from any real argument to the point. He teaches from his own authority. Makes doctrine from his own assumptions. You might like to look up his debate with James White. Or start here: Dr. James White: Response to Dave Hunt on Reformed Theology, Part 1 of 3 - YouTube

To prevent further responses in vain to my earlier post I've added a disclaimer.

Disclaimer: This counter-perspective is made to demonstrate flaws in Calvinism, not to invalidate it as a whole. People instantly assume identity politics and mud-slinging is at play that somehow merely referring to MAN as an example, somehow must mean that the poster is fully affirming the person and his position. This is not the case. Subsequent responses then attacking a person's character, argumentum ad hominem, in dismissing a person altogether without discussing the actual points laid out is thought censorship. It is a cheap and below the belt way to argue, and ignorant. It is an ironically un-reformed way to communicate. That anyone regardless of camp if handling Luther's thesis in the 1517 and onwards would have talked about it, regardless of semi-true or semi-heretical points. -- Deu 16:19 "Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous."
 
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philadelphos

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Election is greatly misunderstood by many who claim to be Christian. Israel is elect among the nations yet not all of Israel is saved. God chose Israel by His sovereign will to be a peculiar nation among mankind. Those who receive Christ as their Savior are elect among mankind again by the determinate sovereign will of God. Those who reject Christ are lost.
Calvinism is the result of a theological argument not a divine doctrine cause by God. Not a single person becomes saved by following Calvinism or any other religious teaching i.e. Catholicism, Baptist or such.
You do not need a degree in theology to come to Christ. You need only to hear the word of God, the bible, the Holy Spirit will bring conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment. You will know and understand that the word of God is true and short of repentance and belief in Christ you will perish for eternity.
After conversion if one is not discipled in the word of God they are likely to be tossed about with every wind of doctrine that is not biblically sound.

Exactly.

2 Tim 3:15-17 15 From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Israelite and Jewish children are "sons of the commandment" (bar mitzvah) as they are raised 'under the Torah' or Pentateuch, pre-eminent to 'the law' itself in the litigious sense (e.g. the way they argued against Christ), and predating the 'prophets' (bar Moses), psalms, et al, and NT. Similar is taught to Christian children, those at new missionary churches, etc. The problem is that this teaching typically ends prematurely. i.e. supercessionism.

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." (Deu 4:2)

The first 5 books are the fundamental 'foundation' of Christ. Hence the Lord said, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me" (Jn 5:46)-- Deviation from this is where all errors or 'heresy' originates, inc. papal authority, bishops, ministers, reverends, 'teaching elders', doctors of theology, church councils, whatever. These para-religions are not from Christ, thus are inevitably anti-Christ (both lower case and capitalised).

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. ... And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Mt 7:21-23)

People at Christ's time were debating about Hillel and Shammai, just like this thread.

The reason Christ taught of a 'Good Samaritan' is because the Samaritans take the above so seriously that the Torah/Pentateuch is followed exclusively. In fact, the Samaritans challenge nearly all the decisions regarding at Jerusalem, from David, Solomon, etc. Similar for the Essenes who penned the Dead Sea Scrolls.

And as we know from the parable, this manifested in the 'good deeds' or 'good works' ("charity") done in going above and beyond to help another man who 'fell among thieves'. Victim to theft is the case for most people living under our current kleptocratic authorities. It goes back to the Serpent and Eve, Jacob defrauding Isaac.

Jerusalem, however was corrupt: Priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, all deviated from the foundation therefore could not see Christ. Christ's rejection of these groups is numerous, even the physical location has been destroyed. The kleptocracy was profiteering and snickering at their congregations expense. The same is true now, except churches are doing the same.

And yet the Lord did not discredit them entirely: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 5:20)--Indicating that their base principles regarding Scriptural 'purity' and emphasis on the Torah are correct, however their interpretation and teaching (doctrine and system of religion) regarding the 'application' that is in error and will thus yield no fruit. e.g. the vanity of religious ritualism. It is a path of death. -- Nicodemus could not understand Christ for this reason, his presupposition lacked the notion of a physical 're-birth' and other things. Resurrection and a new kingdom was bizarre to him as it was for Christ's disciples. Yet ironically, Zoroastrianism from Persia/Media/Central Asia had already grasped this 1500-1200 BC! In the same way God has repeatedly used Gentiles to arouse "jealousy" in Israel/Judah.

'Calvin's Calvinism' agrees in this principally but deviates elsewhere unfortunately, I believe due to political pressure from the Council of Geneva (Genevan Consistory), political reasons for the purposes of progress ('semper reformanda') at the expense of truth, but also his character/temper. That Calvin was a man and his ideas cannot be taken as Gospel or divine revelation.

He wrote: "By the Law, I understand not only the Ten Commandments, which contain a complete rule of life, but the whole system of religion delivered by the hand of Moses." (Calvin, Institutes)

I repeat the irony: Torah/Pentateuch = "a complete rule of life"

Quoting McMahon:

The Law plays an integral part in the whole schema of redemptive history. Man cannot keep it, and so a Mediator must arise who can keep it and fulfill its requirement. Calvin sees the Law of God as the whole system of religion handed down by God to Moses. The moral Law has its end in Christ, as Paul makes so plain in Romans and Galatians. The Law, Calvin says, makes men inexcusable. If they kept the law perfectly (which none do) then God would be obliged to reward them with eternal life. However, all break the law and have broken the law in Adam. Thus the Law stands to condemn them. The Law also keeps men from doing evil. It restrains them, which is necessary for society to function properly. For believers, though, the Law is used for teaching and for exhortation. “Confronted by the Commandments, we learn how far we are from righteousness.” Thus its final purpose is to provide the pattern by which we must live in perfect conformity to mirror God’s righteousness. The Old Covenant was used as a type of the perfect fulfillment of Christ to come and is completed in him.

(A Short Summary of Calvin's Institutes - by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, A Short Summary of Calvin’s Institutes – by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind)

This is where Jerusalem, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Dispensationalists et al are in error. Re-categorisation of 'Mosaic Law' and or hateful anti-semitism. -- "They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land." (Ps 74:8) and the Reformers said: "Set fire to their synagogues or schools" (Luther, on the Jews and their lies)

All of us are born into a certain thought culture that shapes our thinking rightly or wrongly, we are all tainted, errant, heretical, and complicit in the death of Christ in that regard.

My encouragement to all believers on CC is to focus on the fundamentals, to build one's house/life on the solid rock that is Christ: "That ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you" (1 Thes 4:11) -- And placing one's 'faith' and 'hope' in Christ, without dismissing God's original promises.

Blessings to all
 
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philadelphos

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When Scriptures seem to contradict you can decide which side you think carries more weight. The very reason we have opposing camps at all (like C vs A) is because Scriptures can look this way. You "set Scripture against itself" as much as me under this scenario, because I am not saying Scripture contradicts itself, but that the more clear interprets the less clear. You simply assume your interpretation is "so good" that you don't even have to acknowledge a tension in Scripture, whereas I honestly acknowledge it.

The Bible simply does not say what you are saying, you are regurgitating sermons from Calvinist preachers and those who have echoed them. The Bible does not say anywhere "Faith without any kind of works saves but necessarily has to always have works." That is logically and philosophically built as an implication of how some people think these passages should be harmonized. It is not directly said anywhere. That doesn't mean it's wrong, per se, but it's an implication logically deduced. I believed it for awhile.

By saying the phrase "You see that a Person is justified by works and not faith alone" is a more clear and direct statement than all the verses saying we are not justified by "works," I am not "pitting Scripture against Scripture" anymore than you are by contradicting the clear statement that works play a part in justification. There are different kinds of works. That harmonizes Scripture. That allows James 2:4 to stand. That does not "pit Scripture against Scripture." The criticism is nothing but a straw man that the objector employs himself in a hypocritical fashion.

It's proven by Zacchaeus who gave a verbal account of how he kept Torah, in light of his uncomfortable situation as the local pariah or whipping boy, collecting taxes on behalf of the foreign/invading government. His faith was in Torah and the promises God made, manifesting in his 'works' of charity and justice.

"And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham." (Lk 19:8-9)

Similar happened to Mary Magdelene and the thief on the cross. Their faith was a shift in mentality/heart, manifesting in words and actions. And it separated them from every other person in the room, inc. Simon the Pharisee, and Simon Peter who later become an Apostle.

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace." (Lk 7:50)

IOW, faith and works are inseparable, both are true.

But it manifests in many forms per a person's circumstances, dependent on the Holy Spirit's work. i.e. Evangelicals and new converts tend to be highly emphatic on areas that older multi-generation believers take as simple and perhaps for granted, but in other ways have moved to 'higher' purposes where vain and superficial things tend to become markers of faith. Which can be misconstrued or misunderstood as 'works based belief' or 'works based salvation'. It's really hard to say and depends on the person's heart.
 
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philadelphos

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It’s very clear from Jesus and the Apostle’s which I quoted well overv2 dozen passages . Those who practice sin will not inherit the kingdom of God and John tells us those who do are children of the devil not children of God . Jesus said you will know them by their fruits . This has nothing whatsoever to do with being an A or C. It’s biblical Christianity 101. You can debate it until one is blue in the face but no fruit , no root . As Jesus said in John 15 He cuts off the dead branch and throws it into the fire. James said it’s a dead faith with no works / fruit . Paul says such will not inherit the kingdom of God and John says they are children of the devil. Real faith produces good works as per Ephesians 2:8-10 as its Gods design and purpose .

hope this helps !!!

And yet because of repentance the thief on the cross was saved.

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Rom 14:11-12)

And "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 Jn 1:9)

That is, without justifying or excusing sin, people practice sin for any number of reasons. Sin can be said to be 'systemic' in that regard or an 'economy of sin'. Taking Rahab in the Book of Joshua and prostitution as an example, highlighting the fact that supply cannot function without demand, one necessitates the other. So in this analogy, it is men's inability to contain and practice marital fidelity that causes themselves to stray. Amongst other reasons like a cold wife and or idolatry of women by the Diana cult or pop culture. Subsequently denying Rahab (and her family) a viable profession. Same can be said of theft. If every man does is not given the right to work, then one is privileged while his brother is damned to. life of sin.
 
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