What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Jesus is YHWH]

Don't agree with this guy on everything but some good thoughts about fruit-bearing:

I stopped after a few minutes. He is defending sin, continuing in sin, a sinful lifestyle etc.......

I side with Scripture on the topic not this man. You will know them by their fruits.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?

Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it

John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you

John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments

No cheap grace from Jesus and the Apostle’s- They taught obedience they learned from their Lord and Master as slaves of Christ .

1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 2
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him[b] there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John 2
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Cheap Grace !

The term “cheap grace” can be traced back to a book written by German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, called The Cost of Discipleship, published in 1937. In that book, Bonhoeffer defined “cheap grace” as “the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Notice what is emphasized in Bonhoeffer’s definition of cheap grace and what is de-emphasized. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the costs involved; hence, the adjective cheap to describe it.

Jesus, in His Great Commission to the 11 remaining disciples, commanded them to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them to observe all that He had commanded them (Matthew 28:19-20). Evangelism and discipleship go hand in hand. A disciple is one who observes (keeps, obeys) all that Jesus has commanded. There is no two-stage process in Christianity—first, be saved; then become a disciple. This arbitrary distinction is foreign to the New Testament and therefore foreign to Christianity.

To play off the title of Bonhoeffer’s book, let’s look at what Jesus said to His disciples about discipleship in Luke 14:25-33. In that passage, Jesus says to the crowds that no one can be His disciple unless they first hate their family (v. 26). Furthermore, the one who cannot bear his own cross cannot be His disciple (v. 27). Two conditions are given by Jesus in order to be His disciple. The first is to be willing to renounce family in order to follow Jesus. The second is to be willing to die, both literally and metaphorically (“die to self”) in order to follow Jesus. Jesus then gives two examples of “counting the cost.” The first is an example of a man who desires to build a tower without first counting the cost of building the tower. After realizing he cannot complete it, he gives up in shame and embarrassment. The second is that of a king preparing to go to battle and making sure he can defend against the superior foe. The point Jesus is making is that discipleship has a cost.

Furthermore, discipleship requires repentance and obedience. At the beginning of Jesus’ ministry, the message He preached was a message of repentance (Matthew 4:17). The message of the apostles after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension was also one of repentance (Acts 2:38). Along with repentance comes obedience. Jesus told a crowd of listeners that salvation and obedience go hand in hand: “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?” (Luke 6:46). Jesus then goes on to differentiate the one who builds his house on the sand from the one who builds his house on the rock, that is, the man who not only hears the words of Jesus, but does them, too.

Cheap grace seeks to hide the cost of discipleship from people. It seeks to claim that as long as we make a profession of faith, we are saved. God’s grace covers all our sins. Again, that is a wonderful truth! The apostle Paul says as much when he writes, “Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:20-21). Yet, right after writing that, Paul follows it with this: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” (Romans 6:1-2). Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is so much more than simply mouthing the words “Jesus is Lord.” We are not saved by a profession of faith. We are not saved by praying the Sinner’s Prayer. We are not saved by signing a card or walking an aisle. We are saved by a living and active faith (James 2:14-26), a faith that manifests itself in repentance, obedience and love of God and our neighbor. Salvation is not a transaction; it’s a transformation. Paul says it best when he says we are “new creations” in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). There is nothing “cheap” about grace! got?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Paul tells us who is going to hell in several places that will not enter the kingdom of God- those who practice sin. Jesus and the other Apostles taught this too. Ye shall know them by their fruits. I've already quoted 20 or so passages. Do you need 50 more to be convinced of the truth or will you still reject it @Dizerner ?

Notice I do not use my subjective opinion or experience I use objective truth from scripture which affirms those who practice sin ( bad fruit ) shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The bible commands people to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith and the warning passages in scripture are written to believers in the church, not unbelievers in the world. Its why Paul said a little leaven leavens the whole lump and to remove the wicked one among you. Its why he excommunicate practicing sinners from Corinth and turned them over to satan for the destruction of their flesh that they might come to repentance.

no fruit, no root. no works, dead faith- no life. continuing in sin- no life, no root, dead faith as per 1 John, Galatians 5:19-23, 1 Cor 6:9-11,- they will not inherit the kingdom of God those who practice sin. Many here claim to sin daily and are proud of it and say they are like Paul the chief of sinners to justify it but Paul is speaking about his former life persecuting the church. Jesus is John 15 says they will be burned, thrown away. Like Jesus said elsewhere many will call Him Lord Lord and He will say depart from Me I never knew you. One must remain in Him and produce fruit, works of righteousness ( good works )as per Ephesians 2:10.

And I will toss in at no extra charge Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:36-31 as supporting the above.



hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

Election is greatly misunderstood by many who claim to be Christian.
Israel is elect among the nations yet not all of Israel is saved.

Election is to something. . .to salvation, to bring the gospel, to bring the Messiah, to receive revelation, etc.
Jacob was elected to father God's people, Israel.
Israel was elected to bring the Messiah.
Those are elected to salvation who believe in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ (the Promise) for the remission of their sin.

God chose Israel by His sovereign will to be a peculiar nation among mankind. Those who receive Christ as their Savior are elect among mankind again by the determinate sovereign will of God. Those who reject Christ are lost.
Calvinism is the result of a theological argument not a divine doctrine cause by God.

Calvin's understanding of the Scriptures ("Calvinism") has not been Biblically demonstrated to be extra- or non-Biblical.
Objections are brought against Calvin's understanding of Scripture by setting the Scriptures against themselves. That is never true doctrine. One's understanding of Scripture must be in agreement with all Scripture, understood in its own light if it is to be true.

Not a single person becomes saved by following Calvinism or any other religious teaching

Au contraire. . .one becomes saved by following the religious teaching that one must believe in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ for remission of sin, which is salvation from God's wrath (Romans 5:9).

i.e. Catholicism, Baptist or such.
You do not need a degree in theology to come to Christ. You need only to hear the word of God, the bible, the Holy Spirit will bring conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment. You will know and understand that the word of God is true and short of repentance and belief in Christ you will perish for eternity.
After conversion if one is not discipled in the word of God they are likely to be tossed about with every wind of doctrine that is not biblically sound.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Objections are brought against Calvin's understanding of Scripture by setting the Scriptures against themselves. That is never true doctrine. One's understanding of Scripture must be in agreement with all Scripture, understood in its own light if it is to be true.

Au contraire. . .one becomes saved by following the religious teaching that one must believe in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ for remission of sin, which is salvation from God's wrath (Romans 5:9).

It's not that scripture does not teach the basic tenets of Calvinism but the way modern adherents to Calvinism have overreached their intent.
One is saved by grace; faith is the means by which we receive God's grace.

 

[Clare73]

One tricky little argument Calvinists use is that Armininians are "works salvationists."

If we study James 2, and believe this is in fact the inspired Bible, we see
James specifically says faith alone does not save—in fact he makes a big point of it. Does this ruin the whole faith/works dichotomy that the Reformation set up for us?

James says faith without works is dead; i.e., because such faith is not true faith but counterfeit faith and, therefore, does not save (Matthew 7:21-23).

Paul says that salvation is by true faith alone, apart from true faith's own necessary works.
Genuine faith always has works, but it is not the works of that genuine faith which saves, it is the faith itself only, apart from its own works, which saves.

It's not that complicated. . .

 

[Clare73]

It's not that scripture does not teach the basic tenets of Calvinism but the way
modern adherents to Calvinism have overreached their intent.
One is saved by grace; faith is the means by which we receive God's grace.

They have not overreached.

Faith is likewise a gift of grace (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1; Acts 13:48, Acts 18:27; Romans 12:3), for

"Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10), ALL of it!
His and his alone (Revelation 19:1; Psalms 37:39).
Man contributes nothing, his works of faith contribute NOTHING,
for he must have nothing about which he could possibly boast.
(Romans 3:27, Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Ephesians 2:9)

 

[Clare73]

This is what you've been conditioned to believe the Bible says—and I'm not saying that that is always wrong, we all have to interpret the Bible, but we must make sure we have not been handed the wrong interpretation.

I encourage you to look again at this verse and really pray about it:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas. 2:24 ESV)

Setting Scripture against itself is to misunderstand Scripture.

Yes, faith without works is faith alone, and is not true faith and, therefore, does not save.

It is only the faith which has works that is true faith which saves.

Setting Scripture against itself (Ephesians 2:8-9) is de facto to misunderstand Scripture.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

James says faith without works is dead; i.e., because such faith is not true faith but counterfeit faith and, therefore, does not save (Matthew 7:21-23).

Paul says that salvation is by true faith alone, apart from true faith's own necessary works.
Genuine faith always has works, but it is not the works of that genuine faith which saves, it is the faith itself only, apart from its own works, which saves.

It's not that complicated. . .

ditto

 

[Mark Quayle]

Election is greatly misunderstood by many who claim to be Christian. Israel is elect among the nations yet not all of Israel is saved. God chose Israel by His sovereign will to be a peculiar nation among mankind. Those who receive Christ as their Savior are elect among mankind again by the determinate sovereign will of God. Those who reject Christ are lost.
Calvinism is the result of a theological argument not a divine doctrine cause by God. Not a single person becomes saved by following Calvinism or any other religious teaching i.e. Catholicism, Baptist or such.
You do not need a degree in theology to come to Christ. You need only to hear the word of God, the bible, the Holy Spirit will bring conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment. You will know and understand that the word of God is true and short of repentance and belief in Christ you will perish for eternity.
After conversion if one is not discipled in the word of God they are likely to be tossed about with every wind of doctrine that is not biblically sound.

Is this an answer to any one post, or just a general side statement or what?

 

[Receivedgrace]

Is this an answer to any one post, or just a general side statement or what?

A general statement. Many Calvinists go far beyond what the bible and even Calvin himself taught. Calvin made his argument in response to Arminius and what was viewed as works needed in salvation.

 

[All Glory To God]

Many Calvinists go far beyond what the bible and even Calvin himself taught.

Oh really?

Calvin made his argument in response to Arminius and what was viewed as works needed in salvation.

Now I assume you mean (Jacob) Arminius the Theologian and not Arminius the German war commander from the first century? That being the case it would not have been possible for Calvin to respond to Jacob Arminius, as Arminius would have only been 4 years old when Calvin died.

John Calvin ( 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564)
Jacobus Arminius (10 October 1560 – 19 October 1609)


Okay, so will you now be consistent and apply to yourself what you just said in regard of going beyond things? You clearly are in error about Calvin writing to Arminius, you are just writing things that seem to to support your points without verifying the information. Going beyond the facts, which is pretty bad.

 

[Mark Quayle]

When Scriptures seem to contradict you can decide which side you think carries more weight. The very reason we have opposing camps at all (like C vs A) is because Scriptures can look this way. You "set Scripture against itself" as much as me under this scenario, because I am not saying Scripture contradicts itself, but that the more clear interprets the less clear. You simply assume your interpretation is "so good" that you don't even have to acknowledge a tension in Scripture, whereas I honestly acknowledge it.

The Bible simply does not say what you are saying, you are regurgitating sermons from Calvinist preachers and those who have echoed them. The Bible does not say anywhere "Faith without any kind of works saves but necessarily has to always have works." That is logically and philosophically built as an implication of how some people think these passages should be harmonized. It is not directly said anywhere. That doesn't mean it's wrong, per se, but it's an implication logically deduced. I believed it for awhile.

By saying the phrase "You see that a Person is justified by works and not faith alone" is a more clear and direct statement than all the verses saying we are not justified by "works," I am not "pitting Scripture against Scripture" anymore than you are by contradicting the clear statement that works play a part in justification. There are different kinds of works. That harmonizes Scripture. That allows James 2:4 to stand. That does not "pit Scripture against Scripture." The criticism is nothing but a straw man that the objector employs himself in a hypocritical fashion.

It's still subjective to say that "the more clear interprets the less clear", and therefore a dangerous method.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Actually Arminius responded to Calvin. Just as a point of historical info.

Difficult to make any progress when we continue to litigate the matter to this day.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Oh really?



Now I assume you mean (Jacob) Arminius the Theologian and not Arminius the German war commander from the first century? That being the case it would not have been possible for Calvin to respond to Jacob Arminius, as Arminius would have only been 4 years old when Calvin died.

John Calvin ( 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564)
Jacobus Arminius (10 October 1560 – 19 October 1609)


Okay, so will you now be consistent and apply to yourself what you just said in regard of going beyond things? You clearly are in error about Calvin writing to Arminius, you are just writing things that seem to to support your points without verifying the information. Going beyond the facts, which is pretty bad.

Thanks for the correction. The effect is not changed, and we continue to litigate the matter when we should be evangelizing lost souls.
Losing sight of our command to witness of the saving grace of God is not good.

 

[All Glory To God]

The effect is not changed

Of course it should change for you. Because you were confused about the dating of Calvin. I thought just about every Christian knew that Calvin was one of the fathers of the reformation. Apparently you did not and so you are not aware of the time sequence of the events of the Reformation. This is very important and if it's not important to you why are you talking about history in the first place?

and we continue to litigate the matter

Not really. Just trying to help put the facts right. I think it's important to have a standard and structure so writing and believing any old bunk is not a good way to go.

when we should be evangelizing lost souls.
Losing sight of our command to witness of the saving grace of God is not good.

If you feel that way, sign off this forum and go do it!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

What is most dangerous is to claim you can bypass subjectivity somehow. We all must hear from God.

But how could it be dangerous to say a statement is more clear than another? Makes absolutely no sense at all, as if we must demand all things are equally clear. Where would that rule even come from? Even Peter said some things are hard to understand. It's like a point just "thrown out there" to sound argumentative.

It’s very clear from Jesus and the Apostle’s which I quoted well overv2 dozen passages . Those who practice sin will not inherit the kingdom of God and John tells us those who do are children of the devil not children of God . Jesus said you will know them by their fruits . This has nothing whatsoever to do with being an A or C. It’s biblical Christianity 101. You can debate it until one is blue in the face but no fruit , no root . As Jesus said in John 15 He cuts off the dead branch and throws it into the fire. James said it’s a dead faith with no works / fruit . Paul says such will not inherit the kingdom of God and John says they are children of the devil. Real faith produces good works as per Ephesians 2:8-10 as its Gods design and purpose .

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

So you do believe we are justified by works along with faith?

Just trying to understand the point you are making.

fruit/ good works are a results of ones salvation- evidence that we are in the vine and have life in Him- John 15, James 2, Ephesians 2:8-10 and every chapter in 1 John 2 through 1 John 5. And Jesus taught this concept in every parable, the sermon on the mount and to the pharisees over and over again on the 4 gospels. I quoted several of them in this thread.

But for the lurkers sake I will requote the passage that teach exactly what I'm saying.


Jesus teaching

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I say?

Luke 11:28
Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it

John 8:31
If you hold to My teaching you are truly My disciples

John 15:14
You are My friends if you do what I command you

John 13:17
If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

John 14:15
If you love Me you will keep My commandments

John the disciple whom Jesus loved teaching:

1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1 John 2
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John 2
If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

Paul's teaching:

Shall we continue in sin that grace might abound ? May it NEVER be !

Galatians 5
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Colossians 3
Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.



Peters Teaching

1 Peter 1
Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

1 Peter 4
As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

2 Peter 1:3-11
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And we have James 2 and Jude 1 we can add as well to the above list.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Receivedgrace]

Of course it should change for you. Because you were confused about the dating of Calvin. I thought just about every Christian knew that Calvin was one of the fathers of the reformation. Apparently you did not and so you are not aware of the time sequence of the events of the Reformation. This is very important and if it's not important to you why are you talking about history in the first place?




Not really. Just trying to help put the facts right. I think it's important to have a standard and structure so writing and believing any old bunk is not a good way to go.



If you feel that way, sign off this forum and go do it!

Well, you apparently hold Calvin in high esteem. I only mention the history because this is a centuries old argument. I have Laurence M Vance's book on Calvinism and it does provide a lot of information on the subject.
One interesting snippet is on page 43 "..whether or not any of the early Church Fathers taught what today is "Calvinism" is really immaterial for two reasons given by Calvinists themselves. First the is the fact that the real issue was never whether salvation was received by the free will of man or by an irresistible decree." They were busy writing against the pagans and Jews.
Augustine was a major source of the theology to which the Calvinists were exposed.
Taken from:
Vance publications "The Other Side of Calvinism"
ISBN 0-9628898-7-3

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Okay... so logically then, no amount of fruit or works contributes towards salvation, correct?

You would say: saved people must necessarily bear some of amount of fruit (how much?) that contributes nothing to their salvation.

Is that your view?

Its the evidence or the result of being saved.

And the salvation/born again event is one that involves both faith and repentance. That is an act of obedience. Faith must contain obedience/repentance. They are 2 sides of the same coin in scripture. There are numerous passages that contain both together in salvation.

In Salvation faith and repentance go together. J.I. Packer says it this way : Repentance is inseparable from faith, being the negative aspect (faith is the positive aspect) of turning to Christ as Lord and Savior. I like to say its two sides of the same coin.

1-No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as well.” (Luke 13:3)

2-“This is what is written: The Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead the third day, and repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Luke 24:46-47)

3-“Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” (Acts 2:38)

4-“I testified to both Jews and Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.” (Acts 20:21)

5-“I preached to those in Damascus first, and to those in Jerusalem and in all the region of Judea, and to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works worthy of repentance.” (Acts 26:20)

hope this helps !!!