What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Is there room for a beautiful song?

 

[P1LGR1M]

I understand what the NT teaches the mysteries are; e.g. the incarnation (1 Timothy 3:16), death of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:1), God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:9), change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51), plan by which both a remnant of Jews (Romans 11:5) and Gentiles (Romans 11:25) will be included in his kingdom.

But do you understand that these mysteries were not revealed to me in prior ages? That is the heart of the issue. If you understand that though the knowledge of the resurrection of the dead was known to men, what was not known—hence mystery—was that, 1) it would not just be one singular day, 2) there would be a "spiritual resurrection" of sorts within the spirit of the individual, 3) that there would be a resurrection unto glorification (like unto Christ).

They did not know this.

So too, the Gospel was presented in the Old Testament but they were not privy to the fact that the Messiah would die in their stead and rise again that men might receive the resurrection unto an everlasting life that would be an eternal union with God. Again, I use the word eternal in eternal union because we partake of God's nature by being in Him and He in us.

They disagree. . .with you.

Be glad to have you explain exactly how they disagree with me.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

We are in agreement that the gospel was preached to Abraham.

Yes, the Gospel was preached to Abraham, but it was veiled. That is why the Gospel of Jesus Christ was mystery. When the Comforter revealed it to the hearts of the disciples He made them understand what Peter does not understand in Matthew 16:20-23.

God's promises to Israel saw the Gospel become more revealed in that they came to understand that a singular Person would one come, and that their kingdom (Israel) would be restored. When we look at the reaction of men (including Peter) we see that their understanding was that the Messiah would be a direct descendant of David, He would become the ruler, and that His rule would have no end (which was likely taken as a son of the Messiah would always be on the throne of that restored Kingdom). Because the promises have undeniably physical traits (i.e., long life, an end to enmity between man and animals and animals and animals) there was a physical expectation. This is why Peter took up a sword and was willing to commit murder—to make sure this physical king was able to take up a physical throne.

Genesis 3:15 is the Gospel, but it does not proclaim the Name of Jesus Christ, nor does it reveal the Cross and Resurrection of Christ. As I said, you and I can understand why these passages are the Gospel, but they could not because understanding was withheld from them.

Regeneration requires obedience to the Gospel. That is why most understand that the Church, the Body of Christ—began at Pentecost. When Christ is foretelling the coming of the Comforter in John 14—not a single disciple is yet in Christ. He is not yet in them.

Nor was their sin atoned for.

When Paul teaches concerning the mystery of the Gospel of Christ he is making this clear.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Agree, however, Faith is the work of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, not the work of man.

Faith is held and expressed by the individual.


Matthew 9:29
Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.


Luke 8:25
And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.


1 Thessalonians 3:2
And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

I would avoid "eternal union" as we do not meld or become one with god.
It is com-union, "together or with" God.

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


I understand your concern (fully) that some might mistakenly think we become gods, but it remains that we become partakers of the divine nature. That is what Eternal Redemption is about: our eternal union with God. He indwells us eternally, and we are in him eternally.

It is eternal life and eternal union because His nature is Eternal.

The lost will dwell in everlasting bodies in everlastin g separation from God, but they do not have that Life. This is why the lost are referred to as dead. We were dead in trespasses and sin, but are now alive in Christ because we have received His Life.

Adam was without God.

No, God walked with Adam in the Garden, and because of his disobedience he was thrust from the Garden and lost his communion with God as well as the means of everlasting life, the Tree of Life.

I view this relationship as physical, just as the Tree of Life provided for physical life.

Through Christ's Resurrection, redemption and baptism by the Holy Spirit, God is with us.

Exactly. And it is an eternal indwelling spoken of by Christ in John 14:15-23. When the Comforter comes, He taught, He would be in the disciples (eternal indwelling) as opposed to with them (the filling of the Spirit) John 14:17.

That is Faith

No, that is Eternal Redemption.

Faith is beautifully expressed in the 23rd Psalm.

It is also expressed beautifully in Abraham's willingness to offer up Isaac.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

That Abraham was credited as righteous because he believed God, doesn't mean from my view that he was born again. It was of the old covenant that was a shadow of the new covenant. Abraham still needed the sacrifice of Christ to be eternally saved. In the new covenant the promise to Abraham is fulfilled so there is no shadow covenant to rely on since the sacrifice of Christ is accomplished. Therefore today the only way to be righteous is through Christ. That's my view.

And I would agree with your view.

It is when Christ came that men were redeemed from the Law (Galatians 3:22-28; Galatians 4:4-6). The Promises of God are fulfilled in the New Covenant and it is the eternal indwelling of God that accomplishes the New Birth. We receive life we never had before. Though we are born physically and have physical life—we are born dead. We are born separated from God. When we receive Christ we receive life.

Hebrews 10:1-5 defines why the sacrifices of the Law could not bring about remission of sins in completion, and states that the sacrifice of Christ does so in one, everlasting offering (Hebrews 10:14).

Abraham was justified temporally based on what he did, and this satisfied God from a temporal perspective. He was "saved" in the sense that his eternal destiny was secured by grace through his faith, but, this did not render his debt paid. It would not be until Christ died in his stead that his debt would be, once and forevermore paid by Christ's offering.

In regards to "today," I take a little different view than most. I believe God is consistent throughout Biblical History, and just as men and women were temporally justified prior to the Cross, even today I believe God's grace will extend to those who have not had the opportunity to respond to the Gospel and the Comforter. Babes murdered in the womb, for example. They are people that never had the opportunity, and as God has always judged men based on their response to His revealed will, even so I think they will receive of His grace and be judged on that basis. That's a little controversial for some, but as I said, I see God as consistent and see no reason why He would not show the same grace He showed to the Old Testament Saints to those who lack opportunity to be born again in this age.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You have no idea what my concept of the 'mystery' is. All you know is what I said, quoting Paul. I would be curious how you manage all this you lay out so patiently for me, in light of verse 6, however. So far, all I've seen you do with it is ignore and even deny what it plainly says.

It is because I don't ignore it that you seem to be getting upset.

So I will refrain from responding to your posts.

God bless.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is because I don't ignore it that you seem to be getting upset.

So I will refrain from responding to your posts.

God bless.

I'm not upset in the least, just entertained and puzzled how your posts turned antagonistic, arrogant and condescending sounding, when all I did was quote Paul.

In fact, I might deserve to be reprimanded by the mods for playing you, in that when you don't even know if I even agree with your definition of 'mystery', I keep playing on with your miscomprehension of what I'm about.

BTW, if I came to this thread about this point, and saw only what you, @Clare73 and I were saying, I'm not sure I could immediately make out any real difference between the doctrinal opinions. Just attitudes and points of view. Arminian beliefs and attendance to the precepts given by Scripture are so close to Calvinistic, that sometimes I could swear they are Calvinists, at least many of them; for example I hear some of them praying and I realize they actually do believe God is altogether sovereign even over the choices people make. Their theory just hasn't caught up yet!

 

[QvQ]

Faith is held and expressed by the individual.

1) God has an objective reality.
Gravity has an objective reality. Gravity is sovereign. Gravity exists in all dimensions of time. The will of gravity is absolute in all dimensions of time and space.
Is God smaller than gravity or less obvious?
Faith is not an intellectual or emotional "belief" that is held in the mind of man, singular or plural.
God is not defined by man, Man is defined by God. It is by the Grace of God a man can discover the nature and will of God. as God reveals Himself to man. Newton did not "will" the apple to fall on his head.
Faith in gravity is to know and rely on the absolute unchanging nature and laws of gravity.
Faith in God is to know and rely on the absolute unchanging nature and laws of God.

2) As for certain concepts, "god is love" "mysteries" "union with god,' these concepts are too easily corrupted, abused and manipulated in the hands and mouths of men. Men are seduced by "love" seek mysteries for power and wish to merge with god to become gods.
I realize there are Christian concepts expressed in those words but I still tend to avoid words that can be misconstrued in the common vernacular.

 

[QvQ]

I believe God is consistent throughout Biblical History, and just as men and women were temporally justified prior to the Cross, even today I believe God's grace will extend to those who have not had the opportunity to respond to the Gospel and the Comforter. Babes murdered in the womb, for example. They are people that never had the opportunity, and as God has always judged men based on their response to His revealed will, even so I think they will receive of His grace and be judged on that basis.

I would say, "Receive of His Mercy."

 

[John Mullally]

Regeneration requires obedience to the Gospel. That is why most understand that the Church, the Body of Christ—began at Pentecost. When Christ is foretelling the coming of the Comforter in John 14—not a single disciple is yet in Christ. He is not yet in them.

I am interested in what you think of the following:

The resurrection changed everything. With the resurrection, Jesus conquered death and has the keys to Hell and Death (Revelation 1:18). That is significant because among other things the Old Testament saints did not go to heaven until after the resurrection (Luke 16:19-31, Matthew 27:52, and 1 Peter 3:18-20).

Jesus waited till after the resurrection to inform His disciples that they were not restoring the kingdom of Israel (as they assumed), about their receiving the power of the Holy Spirit, and gave them the Great Commission (thus opening the Church age). That along with the Gospel message can all be thought of as the revelation of the great Mystery. To get through the resurrection, Jesus had to live a sinless life and, very importantly, Satan had to be duped into using his influence to get Jesus crucified (1 Corinthians 2:8).

 

[P1LGR1M]

1) God has an objective reality.
Gravity has an objective reality. Gravity is sovereign. Gravity exists in all dimensions of time. The will of gravity is absolute in all dimensions of time and space.
Is God smaller than gravity or less obvious?

I don't view gravity as "sovereign: man can bypass gravity and work against it (i.e., fly, construct, etc.).
Not so with God.

Gravity is subject to God like everything else.

Faith is not an intellectual or emotional "belief" that is held in the mind of man, singular or plural.

While faith—particularly saving faith—is a result of the ministry of God in our lives, faith is something men can act on and in fact strengthen in an intellectual manner. Being in His Word, for example. The better you understand God and salvation the stronger your faith.

God is not defined by man, Man is defined by God. It is by the Grace of God a man can discover the nature and will of God. as God reveals Himself to man.

That is precisely my point, lol. It is because God opens the heart to understand His truth that we can believe in Him.

Newton did not "will" the apple to fall on his head.
Faith in gravity is to know and rely on the absolute unchanging nature and laws of gravity.

There is a difference between something that is immutable and something that is sovereign. Only God is sovereign and immutable.

Faith in God is to know and rely on the absolute unchanging nature and laws of God.

People can have faith in God and not understand His consistency. If you ask me, this is one of the reasons many people don't understand salvation. Some believe God did things differently in the Old Testament in regards to His grace towards people (e.g., He was a hard and vengeful God then, and is all about love now) but it is His consistency that harmonizes Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

2) As for certain concepts, "god is love" "mysteries" "union with god,' these concepts are too easily corrupted, abused and manipulated in the hands and mouths of men. Men are seduced by "love" seek mysteries for power and wish to merge with god to become gods.

People that think they can become a god are, as far as I know, a minority within Christianity. While there are cults that teach this, given the diversity among groups, it is doubtful even many of them think this is actually a possibility.

But, we should not downplay our partaking of His divine nature. To be in union with God is a tremendous issue. To share in His Life is a tremendous issue.

And that is one issue that I think many people fail to recognize: we are born separated from God and described as "dead." We are not "alive" until we are in Christ (and He in us). This is a fulfillment of God's promise to man, and it is not getting something back that Adam lost, it is a new work of GOd that He intended from before Day One.

I realize there are Christian concepts expressed in those words but I still tend to avoid words that can be misconstrued in the common vernacular.

That would be a mistake (in my opinion). When we understand that a mystery is a previously unrevealed truth is just a biblical truth, this will help us understand Eternal Redemption. Our union with Christ, Christ in us, is just one aspect of the Mystery of (the Gospel of) Jesus Christ. When we read the Gospels and understand that Christ was ministering under the (Covenant of) Law we can properly contextualize His ministry. How often do we hear people mentioning, for example, that Christ said He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel—only?

Because people see a consistency that isn't there and miss the consistency that is there is a merging of salvation in the Old Testament and that which is now available to men.

Again, the Old Testament Saints were "saved," but they ha not received Eternal Redemption as we do today. They died awaiting Atonement, we receive it upon confession of faith. They were filled with the Holy Ghost, we are eternally indwelt (as well as filled). They were justified temporally (see Luke 18:10-14) based on what they did (i.e., Abraham believed God would give him a son), we are justified based on what Christ did:


Romans 3:21-26
King James Version

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I would say, "Receive of His Mercy."

It is by His grace that we are saved, and it is mercy that works within our feeble attempts to live according to His will, lol.

As I have walked with the Lord I have believed certain things that I no longer believe. These beliefs did not serve as my faith, but a foundation for the faith I had in what I believed. As I have grown, there are beliefs that I now see as incontrovertible, and those beliefs strengthen my faith.

Eternal Security, for example, was something that my heart believed—but wasn't entirely sure about. Now I have no doubt that when God saves us it is for eternity. My faith is made stronger. But I did not come to understand Eternal Security because God zapped this knowledge into me, but because He opened the Scriptures to me.

Most understand that the natural man cannot receive nor perceive the spiritual things of God but they seldom consider that even for believers we are still dependent on God to enlighten and illumine. I know of no one that has an understanding of the Word of God who has not spent much time in study and fervent prayer in asking God for wisdom.

And sorry, hard day yesterday, so a little tired and rambling on, lol.

God bless.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Gravity is subject to God like everything else.

Is time subject to God?

 

[P1LGR1M]

I am interested in what you think of the following:

The resurrection changed everything. With the resurrection, Jesus conquered death and has the keys to Hell and Death (Revelation 1:18). That is significant because among other things the Old Testament saints did not go to heaven until after the resurrection (Luke 16:19-31, Matthew 27:52, and 1 Peter 3:18-20).

I agree with this in large part, except to say that I don't view the Son of God (Who is Eternal Creator God) to suddenly have power over death and Hell, because He has always had power over all, for He is Sovereign God. I view His Work to simply put in place those things necessary to bring about His Plan of Redemption as it unfolds. It might be looked at this way: a country has great military power and one of its neighbors (an ally) is overrun, but it is not until they place the weapons of war to throw down the invading country on the ground that it could be said, "We now have the power to remove this invading country." The power was already had, it was just a matter of strategic placement at the appropriate time.

I firmly hold to the view that Saints did not go to Heaven prior to the Cross (but they do now at death). Hades/Sheol, the place of the dead, was divided between the Just and the unjust as Christ describes in Luke 16. It is a popular view that the Just compartment was emptied at Christ's death (while His body lay in the tomb, 1 Peter 3:18-19; Psalm 68:18; Ephesians 4:8-10) and I believe that. The unjust there remained there. I believe that too. But where I might be seen as believing something different is that I don't take the position that the Just side remains empty now. I believe that, as it was in the Old Testament, even today there are those who are temporally justified during their lifetimes but not born again. Regeneration is only possible by believing in Christ, and only those who do so are born again and immersed into God. I think it is very possible that at the Great White Throne there will be those who will be judged according to the Books (God's revealed Will, Scripture) and make it into Heaven.

But our role is to preach the Gospel that men might be eternally redeemed while they are alive and that they might go to be with the Lord at death.

Jesus waited till after the resurrection to inform His disciples that they were not restoring the kingdom of Israel (as they assumed),

This is actually a huge issue: the disciples (and the people awaiting Messiah) had a physical expectation of Messiah. They had been told of this earthly Restored Israel and the King Who's reign would have no end. Peter took up a sword in the Garden to keep the expectation he had going. If they took Christ—this would endanger that earthly Kingdom God had promised. This took place not long after Peter rejected the GOspel told him by none other than the Son of God Himself (Matthew 16:20-23).

And after the Resurrection we would think that Peter (and the disciples) would finally be getting it, right? Not so. They still longed for that earthly Kingdom, and had physical expectations, because they were not yet baptized with the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost, the Comforter—had not revealed the Gospel to them:


Acts 1:4-8
King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Many think the disciples were Christians as they ministered under Christ. After all, Christ sent them out to preach the Gospel, right?

No, He sent them out to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was relevant—to Jews under the Law. Thus we understand His statement, "I am not come but for the lost sheep of Israel only." "Lost" speaks of destruction, and the state of Israel was one of destruction. They had physical life, but they did not have the Life of God. Thus Christ "fulfilled the Law," because the Law spoke of Him.


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


We can't fault them for this physical expectation, because that is what Prophecy said would happen. Not yet having the Promise of the Father (the baptism with the Holy Ghost, v.4-5), and not yet having the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, the disciples are understandably confused, because they know Scripture will be fulfilled as it was given.


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


I view the Lord's statement here to mean "That isn't going to happen at this time."

It will happen, and we have numerous passages that support that. "The Gospel of the Kingdom" holds within it the mystery of the Gospel, because the Kingdom that will one day be physical is now available to us in our hearts. We have that King that will reign eternally in the Kingdom He established at that time.


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


It is unfortunate that nearly every System of Theology views this as the disciples receiving empowerment. Hence "the baptism with the Holy Ghost" is viewed as a subsequent event from salvation by many. But note that the Holy Ghost must come upon them (the baptism) and then they will be empowered. We can look at Peter's testimony of Cornelius' salvation to see that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is in fact the moment when believers are baptized (immersed) into Christ.

See Acts 11:13-18.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

about their receiving the power of the Holy Spirit,

They are still clueless as to what being baptized with the Holy Ghost means in Acts 1.

But we see them begin immediately to preach the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost. This coincides with their baptism with the Holy Ghost through which understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel is received.

and gave them the Great Commission (thus opening the Church age).

Truly the Church began at Pentecost. It is at this time men are immersed in God and receive the eternal indwelling of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (John 14:15-23).

When we read the Gospels we do not see the disciples going out to preach that Christ has died in their stead and that Eternal Salvation is through that death. We do not see Eternal Life (through regeneration) being taught as possible through His Resurrection.

That along with the Gospel message can all be thought of as the revelation of the great Mystery.

I view all mystery that was kept hidden as being revealed through the Spirit of God in His ministry of Comforter. He is the One that brings conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment in those who do not believe in Jesus Christ (John 16:7-9). He is the One that enlightens and teaches those who are born again (John 14:26).

So it is the Gospel itself that is revealed when the mysteries are revealed. It is an understanding of the what, when, how, and why of Eternal Redemption. We are placed in God and He in us. Our sin has been atoned for on an eternal basis as opposed to the temporary remission of sins God allowed for through vicarious animal sacrifice (Hebrews 10:14). We are righteous before God based on Christ's righteousness. We will be made like unto Christ when we are glorified. We will dwell in an eternal kingdom with God.

Praise God that He has revealed His will to us to such an extent. And personally I think we have just seen the tip of the iceberg, lol. I think it is still true—


1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


Revelation has always been progressive in Scripture, and while I do not believe God is granting new revelation today, I do think that as a Body we, the Church, are able to have an understanding of what has been given better than even the early Church. While it is true there is much corruption of the Word of God by many groups, and it seems that even among those considered valid there is disagreement, but I think we may be on the verge of a new—and better—reformation. Unfortunately that reformation and revival will be among a minority because the Body of Christ has always been a minority.

To get through the resurrection, Jesus had to live a sinless life and,

Because of His nature, I think the Lord "having to live sinlessly" is akin to saying "water has to be wet." I don't see it as possible that He could have sinned.

very importantly, Satan had to be duped into using his influence to get Jesus crucified (1 Corinthians 2:8).

The Eternal Son of God manifested in flesh for the express purpose of dying on the Cross for the sins of men. It was the Plan of Salvation known to God before this universe ever existed. I view Satan's role as minimal and perhaps not even worth mentioning. What placed Christ on the Cross was—Man.

"The devil made me do it," lol, might sound good, but mankind does not need Satan to be wicked. All it takes for men to sin is God's absence from their lives, and unfortunately—that is how we all come into this world. Separated from God.

Adam had a physical relationship with God and God's presence surely had a restraining impact in his life. The question a cousin of mine has is "Why would God create man when he knew he would sin?" He questions God's sovereignty in the sense that he feels "if he (my cousin) were God—he wouldn't have allowed Adam to sin." But, for me, it seems fairly simple: the Garden was not God's will for mankind. His will is pretty clear, that He might create a people that would dwell with Him. And that is the ultimate end of Eternal Redemption, that we dwell with God as He has always intended, not that we should exist in a garden (no matter how great that garden is).

We will be made like unto the resurrected Christ in glorification, and dwell with God in the Eternal State.

Again, sorry for rambling on.

God bless.

 

[QvQ]

deleted

 

[John Mullally]

I agree with this in large part, except to say that I don't view the Son of God (Who is Eternal Creator God) to suddenly have power over death and Hell, because He has always had power over all, for He is Sovereign God. I view His Work to simply put in place those things necessary to bring about His Plan of Redemption as it unfolds. It might be looked at this way: a country has great military power and one of its neighbors (an ally) is overrun, but it is not until they place the weapons of war to throw down the invading country on the ground that it could be said, "We now have the power to remove this invading country." The power was already had, it was just a matter of strategic placement at the appropriate time.

We differ here. Man's rebellion allowed Satan to become the ruler of this world (John 14:30 and John 16:11). Hebrews 2:10-16 speaks of Christ through the resurrection brings many sons to glory and destroys him who had the power of death.

Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying: “I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.” 13 And again: “I will put My trust in Him.” And again: “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.” 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.​

Satan's role is not finished (Ephesians 6:10-18, 1 Peter 5:8, and 1 Corinthians 15:25). Even believers can still give place (or some authority) to Satan (Ephesians 4:26-27).

 

[David's Harp]

We differ here. Man's rebellion allowed Satan to become the ruler of this world (John 14:30 and John 16:11). Hebrews 2:10-16 speaks of Christ through the resurrection brings many sons to glory and destroys him who had the power of death.

Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying: “I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.” 13 And again: “I will put My trust in Him.” And again: “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.” 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.​

Satan's role is not finished (Ephesians 6:10-18, 1 Peter 5:8, and 1 Corinthians 15:25). Even believers can still give place (or some authority) to Satan (Ephesians 4:26-27).

Hi John. This is good discussion. Thanks.
Would it be fair to say that Satan doesn't really need to do much to co-erce the wickedness in man? And that he works more to keep us away from God?
Perhaps satan did not need to be duped as you earlier stated, as he was not aware of the full picture of God's Plan.

Also thank you @P1LGR1M. Your posts are a joy and a delight to read.

 

[John Mullally]

Hi John. This is good discussion. Thanks.
Would it be fair to say that Satan doesn't really need to do much to co-erce the wickedness in man?

Adam's sin opened the door to Satan's continued operation on earth. Satan and his demons are constantly tempting human beings to sin against God, and the Bible gives us many examples. The devil “prowls around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8). Satan fills people’s hearts with lies (Acts 5:3). He is “the tempter” (1 Thessalonians 3:5).

And that he works more to keep us away from God?

I agree that that is an important role (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

Perhaps satan did not need to be duped as you earlier stated, as he was not aware of the full picture of God's Plan.

God's Plan was kept a mystery until after the resurrection largely so that Satan (who also reads the scripture) would not have a full picture of God's Plan - because as it turned out God's Plan required Christ be crucified. God does not tempt anyone to do evil (James 1:13-15) - so Satan (termed the ruler of the world by Jesus) unwittingly led men to do that.

1 Corinthians 2:8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.​

 

[P1LGR1M]

We differ here. Man's rebellion allowed Satan to become the ruler of this world (John 14:30 and John 16:11). Hebrews 2:10-16 speaks of Christ through the resurrection brings many sons to glory and destroys him who had the power of death.

Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying: “I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.” 13 And again: “I will put My trust in Him.” And again: “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.” 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.​

Satan's role is not finished (Ephesians 6:10-18, 1 Peter 5:8, and 1 Corinthians 15:25). Even believers can still give place (or some authority) to Satan (Ephesians 4:26-27).

Satan is not an omnipresent spirit, and is thus limited in what he can do. I just don't view Satan as holding power that surpassed God's Sovereignty.

It is true he is still walking to and fro seeking whom he may devour, and that is one of the things I would ask you to consider: what is different in his attempts to destroy men then and now?

Not much, if you ask me.

The eternal destiny of mankind has always lain in the hands of God. God sets the standard and while Satan may lead people astray, that doesn't limit God in His efforts among men (as evidenced by the testimony of both Old and New Testaments.

Men did not go into the unjust side of Hades because Satan determined this fate for those in disobedience to God, but God did (and I am not saying God caused it, just that this was the determination of God as the penalty for sin). Likewise, it was God that justified men and women in the Old Testament.

Satan challenged God in regards to Job, saying, basically, that God wasn't playing fair because God had surrounded Job with a hedge of protection. The challenge was that men would not, if not for the intervention of God—remain faithful to God.

And God proved him wrong. Job shows that men are not puppets and can, despite Satan's greatest efforts—have faith in God.

One aspect of death that changed through the Work of Christ is that now men are made alive in Christ while they yet live. Secondly, men go to be with the Lord at death now, rather than Hades (if they are born again). Third, the issue of the Second Death is resolved for those who are brought into Eternal Union with God. Lastly, we know of the Eternal State as well as Eternal Separation.

Satan's fate is sealed. Eternal Separation in the Lake of Fire, created specifically for him and his minions. While he is still up to his mischief, he has no power over those who belong to God. I do not believe born-again believers can be possessed.


God bless.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Hi John. This is good discussion. Thanks.
Would it be fair to say that Satan doesn't really need to do much to co-erce the wickedness in man? And that he works more to keep us away from God?
Perhaps satan did not need to be duped as you earlier stated, as he was not aware of the full picture of God's Plan.

Also thank you @P1LGR1M. Your posts are a joy and a delight to read.

Yes since the whole world lies by default under the power of the evil one. 1 John 5:19